Ag_nots Catholic Scriptural Challenge - just ONE proven example wins!!

[twb1621]

You know, I wouldn’t really care if Mary was sinless or not. It doesn’t affect me at all. What affects me is false teaching that distracts people from the supremacy of Christ and inserts things foreign to the inerrant Word of God. I looked at one of those links so far, and it was empty words about Catholic dogma and an attempt to show Jesus had no brothers. A bogus waste of time. Whimsical and wasteful. There have been multiple false religions for millenia, starting with Babylon and Isis, that promote the cult of mother/son worship. Not saying here that you are worshipping her (are you?), but It will take us millions of years to discover the depths of Christ, and the RCC has distracted people with the Queen of Heaven. It is an abomination.

Oh, Martin777, I thought we had come further than this in understanding what honnoring Mary is about…
Did you ever read the following?
keep in mind not only that the “woman” spoken of in the OT was Mary in the prophecies but also that she was predestined to suffer the pain of the sword as prophesied by Simeon at the temple. This was the reason Jesus referred to her as “woman” at times. In fact, if you compare, Mary’s life was although not equal to, but to parallel with the life of Jesus right down to the passion and suffering yet she remained as silent in her pain as Jesus in His. It is a fact recognized by all Christians that the Blood of Christ is the Blood of our salvation. Mary was born full of grace and created by God with purity to be the ark of the new covenant just as God directed the construction of the ark of the old covenant. Mary was even more precious because this would be the Son of God who she would carry.
But most importantly, it should not be difficult to understand that if the blood of Jesus is the source of our salvation, this very body and the blood pulsating through the veins of Jesus came from the human body and blood of Mary. Her devotion and her immaculate nature could not have been flawed to start with and certainly could not have been soiled after sharing her maternal life in the living body and blood of Christ. If it were, there would be no salvation at all from the spilling of this very same blood and their shared torment and suffering. And considering how Jesus would have loved His Mother, how could anyone believe He would not expect all to honor her when it reflects the Worship we have of Him. Do we not honor other earthly mothers of those who gave so much such as police, soldiers, firemen, scientists, or how about professional athletes and so on…

Some excerpts to ponder;
64. “Through the prophets, God forms his people in the hope of salvation, in the expectation of a new and everlasting Covenant intended for all, to be written on their hearts. [Cf. Is 2:2-4 ; Jer 31:31-34 ; Heb 10:16 .] The prophets proclaim a radical redemption of the People of God, purification from all their infidelities, a salvation, which will include all the nations. [Cf. Ezek 3:6; Is 49:5-6; Is 53:11 .] Above all, the poor and humble of the Lord will bear this hope. Such holy women as Sarah, Rebecca, Rachel, Miriam, Deborah, Hannah, Judith and Esther kept alive the hope of Israel’s salvation. The purest figure among them is Mary. [Cf. Ezek 2:3 ; Lk 1:38 .]”
148. “The Virgin Mary most perfectly embodies the obedience of faith. By faith Mary welcomes the tidings and promise brought by the angel Gabriel, believing that ‘with God nothing will be impossible’ and so giving her assent: ‘Behold I am the handmaid of the Lord; let it be (done) to me according to your word.’ [Lk 1:37-38; cf. Gen 18:14.] Elizabeth greeted her: ‘Blessed is she who believed that there would be a fulfilment of what was spoken to her from the Lord.’ [Lk 1:45 .] It is for this faith that all generations have called Mary blessed. [Cf. Lk 1:48.]”
273. “Only faith can embrace the mysterious ways of God’s almighty power. This faith glories in its weaknesses in order to draw to itself Christ’s power. [Cf. 2 Cor 12:9 ; Phil 4:13.] The Virgin Mary is the supreme model of this faith, for she believed that ‘nothing will be impossible with God’, and was able to magnify the Lord: ‘For he who is mighty has done great things for me, and holy is his name.’ [Lk 1:37, 49.]”
487. “What the Catholic faith believes about Mary is based on what it believes about Christ, and what it teaches about Mary illumines in turn its faith in Christ.”
490. “To become the mother of the Saviour, Mary ‘was enriched by God with gifts appropriate to such a role.’ [LG 56.] The angel Gabriel at the moment of the annunciation salutes her as ‘full of grace’. [Lk 1:28 .] In fact, in order for Mary to be able to give the free assent of her faith to the announcement of her vocation, it was necessary that she be wholly borne by God’s grace.”
491. “Through the centuries the Church has become ever more aware that Mary, ‘full of grace’ through God, [Lk 1:28 .] was redeemed from the moment of her conception. That is what the dogma of the Immaculate Conception confesses, as Pope Pius IX proclaimed in 1854: The most Blessed Virgin Mary was, from the first moment of her conception, by a singular grace and privilege of almighty God and by virtue of the merits of Jesus Christ, Saviour of the human race, preserved immune from all stain of original sin. [Pius IX, Ineffabilis Deus (1854): DS 2803.]”
catscans.com/catholicsite/mary.htm

 

[Ag_not]

sorry I have been so busy last couple of days but I have to ask…

you are kidding right…?..

Yes

There’s about 250 posts left on this thread. 'm trying to tidy up the themes and post them as given for easy reading - I want to put the objection raised then links on this thread and externally to the rebuttal.

I know it can be argued by some that I would be swayed by the pro catholic arguements anyhow, wouldn’t I? They completely missed the point. I really wanted that one doctrine/dogma/teaching that contradicted the Bible.

I have heard so many times here, and on other sites, that the Catholic Church teaches a false Gospel. I’m in RCIA. I dont want to be part of a Church that does that. Those proporting such statements have had an ideal oportunity to present their case here. They failed, thus far.

No arguements were developed or sustained. Statements were made using chopped pieces of scripture.

All have sinned. Fine. But when this is taken assunder there is no reputtal or further defence. One poster has consistently refused to answer the issue of ‘‘all’’ that I raised in a post. They have ignored at least 3 if not more requests to come back to me regarding the context, as the piece shows ‘‘all’’ simply cannot mean ‘‘all’’ in that sense. They no longer seem to be taking part in this thread.

Martin777 and Henning - never having known these posters I have gained a lot of respect for them as they seem to be very genuine people.

The others just seemed to be drive by merchants - fire off a verse and run. When the verse is expounded, contextualised, linguistically clarified and put in the correct historical framework of the times and New and Old Testament, they just fire off another verse and run. Or its the other tactic of ad hominem.

I’m pretty sure if any agnostic or atheist were reading this thread and looking at the evidence presented, you’d be hard pushed to say a single case has been brought forward to prove the case against the catholic church.

Although there’s about 250 posts to go so you never know

 

[guanophore]

Do a NT word study with your concordance on the words ‘pray’, ‘prayer’ and ‘ask’, and notice all the wonderful instruction and promises there are that God has provided for his children. He gave us all we need to know, and He made not ONE mention of praying to ‘saints’ or Mary.

I will agree that God gave us all we need to know. I just don’t think it is confined to the Scriptures.

The very fact that He had a chat with Moses and Elijah speaks volumes to me about the communion of saints.

That makes that doctrine really irresponsibe hermeneutics.

I suppose this would be true if Catholic doctrine was derived from hermeneutics, but it is not. All of the Catholic teachings come to us from Christ, through the Apostles. the NT reflects what Catholics believe, since Catholics wrote it, But those Catholics never intended for it to be a total compendium of what we needed to know, or replace Jesus as the Source of Truth. Catholic doctrine was whole and entire before a word of it was ever written.

Jesus said “If you ask for ANYTHING in my name, I will do it” What else do you need? The doctrine of Mary prayer is flagrant unbelief of that promise. But I doubt you can bring yourself to admit it.

No, because he also said “where two or more of you gather…” See, for us, we join our prayers with the prayers of the saints, or ask them to join with ours. It is BECAUSE of His promise that we do this! Paul made it clear in his analogy of the body that we are members one of another, and that all that we do impacts the others. This is what it is to be joined in a body, to be in the communion of saints. This modern notion of “jesus 'n me is all I need” is foreign to the apostolic teaching.

 

[Martin777]

sorry I have been so busy last couple of days but I have to ask…

you are kidding right…?..

Can you clarify something for me…Is purgatory only for Christians, who are on their way to heaven?

 

[AshleyBelle]

Can you clarify something for me…Is purgatory only for Christians, who are on their way to heaven?

It is for everyone who is already judged to go to heaven…

 

[guanophore]

Thanks for that, but I think it shows not only a low view of the atonement and it's perfecting work, but also a lack of understanding of (or unwillingness to believe) what Paul says in II Cor 5:17-"Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new."  This of course goes well with the verses in Rom. 6-8 where Paul says our old man died and we are raised NOW with Him.

I think this is just a misunderstanding of the Teaching. It is BECAUSE of the atonement that it is possible for us to be purified and made fit for heaven. Nothing unclean can enter heaven, and although we have been declared clean before God by the work of Jesus’ blood, there is still much sanctification that needs to take place. We cannot take into heaven with us any attachment to sin, or any of the 'old man" that clings so closely. We work out this salvation during this lifetime, and if there is any part of us that still needs perfection at the time of death, Jesus blood continues to purify us until we are spotless.

by the way, is the RCC teaching that purgatory is only for Christians–born again people?

No, it is for those who are elected to enter heaven. There are some who are saved who have never heard of Christ, or don’t know what "born again’ means. God can save whoever He wants, however He likes. He will certainly purify all those He has saved to be “like the angels” when they enter heaven.

 

[Martin777]

I think this is just a misunderstanding of the Teaching. It is BECAUSE of the atonement that it is possible for us to be purified and made fit for heaven. Nothing unclean can enter heaven, and although we have been declared clean before God by the work of Jesus’ blood, there is still much sanctification that needs to take place. We cannot take into heaven with us any attachment to sin, or any of the 'old man" that clings so closely. We work out this salvation during this lifetime, and if there is any part of us that still needs perfection at the time of death, Jesus blood continues to purify us until we are spotless.

No, it is for those who are elected to enter heaven. There are some who are saved who have never heard of Christ, or don’t know what "born again’ means. God can save whoever He wants, however He likes. He will certainly purify all those He has saved to be “like the angels” when they enter heaven.

You simply don’t understand the verses I quoted. Tell me what they mean.

 

[AshleyBelle]

You simply don’t understand the verses I quoted. Tell me what they mean.

I’m sorry to vent this on you Martin…but do you know how many times Catholics hear this? Every time we disagree on a passage of scripture we’re told that we “don’t understand” and that we need to “read it again” or “read it in context!”

I truly feel that when somebody who disagrees orders you to re-read the Bible in context, what they really mean is to “re read it in the context of how I want you to read it.”

 

[Ag_not]

Yes

There’s about 250 posts left on this thread. 'm trying to tidy up the themes and post them as given for easy reading - I want to put the objection raised then links on this thread and externally to the rebuttal.

Nope. It’s no use Ive started this exercise 3 times and 3 times Ive been logged out as it’s taking so long. I hit on the idea too late - I should have been doing it as we went along. Sorry. Anyone not following the thread from the beginning will just have to go back there and read

 

[Ag_not]

I truly feel that when somebody who disagrees orders you to re-read the Bible in context, what they really mean is to "re read it in the context of how I want you to read it."

 

[Ag_not]

Can you clarify something for me…Is purgatory only for Christians, who are on their way to heaven?

From the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

1022
**Each man **receives his eternal retribution in his immortal soul at the very moment of his death, in a particular judgment that refers his life to Christ: either entrance into the blessedness of heaven—***through a purification ***594 or immediately,595—or immediate and everlasting damnation.596

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Well, I’ll usually state that I think verses need to be read in context and not just cherry picked. . . but I’ll be careful to state from now on, “in the context of how God wants them known”, LOL.

What gets me more than the ‘context’ part is the “you don’t understand the verses, tell me what they say” part, when somebody has just done exactly that. I always feel like saying,

“No, you tell us what YOU think they say, and we’ll tell you what WE think they say, and if we disagree, so be it. But don’t go around playing Mr. Bible Head and throwing a patronizing <<tell me what they say so I can tell you you don’t know what you’re talking about and make it look like I’M the one with authority>> hissyfit!”

 

[Martin777]

I’m sorry to vent this on you Martin…but do you know how many times Catholics hear this? Every time we disagree on a passage of scripture we’re told that we “don’t understand” and that we need to “read it again” or “read it in context!”

I truly feel that when somebody who disagrees orders you to re-read the Bible in context, what they really mean is to “re read it in the context of how I want you to read it.”

Why don’t you simply expound on what those verses mean to you?

 

[Martin777]

well he sure is alot better to converse with then others who have been shown the door…

Thanks for that.

 

[Martin777]

I always find this accusation confusing…

First off…it assumes that “prayer” is worship. Prayer itself is a conversation… And it is only through Jesus our one mediator, that our prayers may be heard.

Secondly, every time we pray with those in heaven, we always begin and end with “In the name of the Father, the son, and the Holy Spirit.” Every prayer is done as the Bible asks, no matter who we are praying with, in heaven and on earth.

I wasn’t saying there that praying to Mary is worshipping her. What I was saying is that if you look at the MANY verses God gave you from Jesus, Paul, John…He provided those for the Church so she would have everything she needed in instruction on prayer. And He never told us to pray to Mary or anyone else but God. Never. This is why most Christians on the planet do not pray to Mary. I have read some incredible books on prayer by guys like E.M. Bounds, Andrew Murray and others, and NONE of them mention Mary or the so-called ‘saints’. But that isn’t why the majority of the Christian world doesn’t pray to her or them. It is because God did not tell us to do that.

 

[guanophore]

You simply don’t understand the verses I quoted. Tell me what they mean.

I bet it is more a case of understanding them differently. I would be delighted to discuss this fascinating topic with you, but I have great respect and admiration for Ag_not and I do not want to hijack her thread. If she is in agreement that a discussion of this is appropriate, we can do it here. Otherwise, I think we will have to start a different thread.

 

[Ag_not]

If she is in agreement that a discussion of this is appropriate, we can do it here. Otherwise, I think we will have to start a different thread.

Why not! Knock yourself out. My arm hurts anyhow from all the :nunchuk:'ing

I honestly don’t think anything new is going to be raised at this point.

This might be a good time for me to say a genuine and heart felt thankyou to everyone who took part in this thread. For the most part people remained civil and cordial and christian with each other (though Im SURE realcatholicgk got some sly passes by me ). I learned tons, and hope others got something from it too, and I am honestly convinced now more than ever that the Catholic Church does NOT teach Anything that contradicts the Bible.

Much is subject to interpretation of course, but when you hold that up to the light of 2000 years of understanding and exploration and examination, v. someones own personal rational interpretation, it’s clear to me anyhow which is the more authoritative.

Now, the nunchucks are packed away, thank you all, have fun till the mods come along and turn the lights out

 

[twb1621]

Can you clarify something for me…Is purgatory only for Christians, who are on their way to heaven?

It is only for those who remain in some state of sin but have been promised heaven, yes. Those that need purification. Does everyone go there, not according to the Faith. Those who are in a state of holiness that God deems pure without purging do not go to purgatory but for a person to think of them self that pure can be dangerous if it becomes a matter of self-righteousness. Its always better to be pleasantly surprised than to be over confident and take it for granted, if you know what I mean…

 

[Martin777]

Why not! Knock yourself out. My arm hurts anyhow from all the :nunchuk:'ing

I honestly don’t think anything new is going to be raised at this point.

This might be a good time for me to say a genuine and heart felt thankyou to everyone who took part in this thread. For the most part people remained civil and cordial and christian with each other (though Im SURE realcatholicgk got some sly passes by me ). I learned tons, and hope others got something from it too, and I am honestly convinced now more than ever that the Catholic Church does NOT teach Anything that contradicts the Bible.

Much is subject to interpretation of course, but when you hold that up to the light of 2000 years of understanding and exploration and examination, v. someones own personal rational interpretation, it’s clear to me anyhow which is the more authoritative.

Now, the nunchucks are packed away, thank you all, have fun till the mods come along and turn the lights out

And I think iyou guys hear and believe exactly what you want to hear and believe. And I think if Jesus Himself came and said, “Guys, please, my Word tells you all the basics you need to know about prayer. Don’t pray to Mary. Pray directly to me. I told you you’ll receive if you ask in my Name.”…then you guys would walk away from there and be thankful that your traditions prevent you from having to deal with such interference.

No one has ever dealt with my scriptures on ‘saint’ as the NT depicts it. It has nothing to do with a bunch of guys that got voted on! I am a saint in the full biblical sense of the word, and so are you, IF you have been born of His Spirit.

So we haven’t been very impressed!

 

[twb1621]

Yes

There’s about 250 posts left on this thread. 'm trying to tidy up the themes and post them as given for easy reading - I want to put the objection raised then links on this thread and externally to the rebuttal.

I know it can be argued by some that I would be swayed by the pro catholic arguements anyhow, wouldn’t I? They completely missed the point. I really wanted that one doctrine/dogma/teaching that contradicted the Bible.

I have heard so many times here, and on other sites, that the Catholic Church teaches a false Gospel. I’m in RCIA. I dont want to be part of a Church that does that. Those proporting such statements have had an ideal oportunity to present their case here. They failed, thus far.

No arguements were developed or sustained. Statements were made using chopped pieces of scripture.

All have sinned. Fine. But when this is taken assunder there is no reputtal or further defence. One poster has consistently refused to answer the issue of ‘‘all’’ that I raised in a post. They have ignored at least 3 if not more requests to come back to me regarding the context, as the piece shows ‘‘all’’ simply cannot mean ‘‘all’’ in that sense. They no longer seem to be taking part in this thread.

Martin777 and Henning - never having known these posters I have gained a lot of respect for them as they seem to be very genuine people.

The others just seemed to be drive by merchants - fire off a verse and run. When the verse is expounded, contextualised, linguistically clarified and put in the correct historical framework of the times and New and Old Testament, they just fire off another verse and run. Or its the other tactic of ad hominem.

I’m pretty sure if any agnostic or atheist were reading this thread and looking at the evidence presented, you’d be hard pushed to say a single case has been brought forward to prove the case against the catholic church.

Although there’s about 250 posts to go so you never know

Dear newest sister of mine in Christ, Agi,
Many people outside of the Catholic Church are completely invested in the faith they were raised in. It is very difficult for a person to have to hear let alone accept that the faith in God they had only known was not the true Faith. In truth, I feel for these people who face this and truly commend those who are open hearted enough to go through learning the Truth. They often stand to loose their relationships with family and or friends making that choice even though they eventually realize how beautiful it can be to have a full relationship with Jesus in all He offers us. But the Catholic Church stands strong on the true teachings and the True Word of God so you can look but you will never find that one conflict they all hope they can find to justify belonging to a faith outside the CC. But it was a real good topic to get the communication flowing and thank you very much. I am anxious to hear how you enjoy your first Christmas….