Ag_nots Catholic Scriptural Challenge - just ONE proven example wins!!

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Henning said:
I guess then we disagree as to which is better to sin or in sin. BTW I did read, a few times, 2 Cor ch.s 3-6 to get context and there doesn’t seem to me to be anything preventing the verse to be understood as dead in sin.

Also, this is from Haydock’s
Ver. 14. For the charity of Christ, the love of God, the love that Christ has shewn to me and all mankind, and a return of love due to him, presseth me on, is the motive of all that I do; because I consider that if one, our Redeemer Christ Jesus, died for all, then all were dead, and had been lost in their sins, had not Christ come to redeem us.

but if I say ‘all dead in sin’ then Jesus is excepted from this all on account of these three verses (each is talking about Christ)

2 Cor 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

1 Pet 2:22 Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:

1 John 3:5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.

that’s the problem for me, how to reconcile her being without original sin (which she is) and 2 Cor 5:14 🤷 .

just ordered it from Amazon (less than 10bucks, not bad 🙂 )

Also to some discussing these things might seem boring (not implying you) but I argue…‘you gotta be detail oriented’…from suturing or scripture to whatever…for as they say, ‘the devil is in the details’. good night Benedictus2 :tiphat:
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Just a quick one in response to all of the above.

If you can, get Tim Staples’ “The Gospel Truth About Mary”. I got this as a gift from CAF when I responded to their appeal for financial support but you can order it as well. Not sure how much it retails for.

The points you raised and others were treated very much indepth in this pack of 5 CDs.

I was thinking of posting some of the salient points here but I thought I’d give that a miss because I am beginning to think that my grey cells are failing me. I am seeing so many errors in my posts (words that should not be there, typing “think” in place of “thing”, one’s in place of once, and so much more) so the best I can do is recommend this CD pack.

I didn’t mind going into detail at all but it just took a lot of time to go into it and I missed reading and replying to some posts.

But I really like the way your brain works. Very methodical. I totally appreciate that your arguments are logical and when you rebutt you rebutt with rationality. I respect that very much because what I find most frustrating in this forum is irrational rebuttals.

I can argue with you and feel like we are getting somewhere, but heavens, we’re probably standing still.😃
 
Hisalone said:
It cant be over.
No one has answered the question what is the glory of God?
For all have fallen short of the glory of God
All includes Adam, All includes Mary.
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It can’t be over?

What is the angst your’e feeling…what do you have to loose if all this time when you were so sure the Catholic Church was against Sacred Scripture, you may actually have been wrong? Is that what frightens you? I’ll admit, it frightened me A.LOT. a few years ago.

The Catholic Church? In line with the Bible? NO WAY! …

…

But God sometimes has other plans 🙂
What is driving your great desire to pull Ag_Not out of her spiritual journey into full communion with the Catholic Church?
 
Hisalone said:
It cant be over.
No one has answered the question what is the glory of God?
For all have fallen short of the glory of God
All includes Adam, All includes Mary.
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What is the glory of God?

That is a question that bugged me for years until one day during a retreat I got an excellent answer from a Biblical scholar.

For Israel, the Glory of God is God made manifest!
 
Martin777 said:
I understand that. But again I think that if you see all that Scripture says about what happens to the believer at the moment of conversion, it negates the need for purgatory. We become brand new creatures, our old man died, we are grafted into Christ, in union with His Spirit, and John says when we see Him (at His return) WE WILL BE LIKE HIM, FOR WE WILL SEE HIM AS HE IS! That’s all the purification we will need. That’s what the Bible says.
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Here’s the missing concept- TIME.

See how you miss here what you miss when you assume that the Catholic teaching of conversion/salvation is not the same thing as being born again because it is taught as a process rather than one moment in time.

When does this happen? Instantaneously we are new creatures? In God’s mind, yes, because there is no time in God’s vision, he is in eternity, and outside of time. But in both our earthly conversion and our afterlife purgation (if necessary) we experience time. Keep in mind also there is no teaching we MUST go to purgatory. Therese de Lisieux taught we must all live and believe as if there will be no need for purgation after death.

If that were not the case then no believer would sin.
 
Angels_Unaware said:
I did answer this question. Maybe you overlooked it?

Let’s assume for a moment that the “glory of God” in this setnence means, “none is like God”. Is that what you assume it means? If so, your point is moot. Nobody has said that Mary is like God in anyway. She was redeemed from sin at conception. Saved (in exactly the same way we all are saved) before she sinned. She had to have this singular grace because she was the first member of the Body of Christ, and her flesh and His flesh were one. She had to be pure by his presence within her.
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My point is all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. Even Mary. The Glory of God is is His weightyness, His splendor. It is part of His charactor of His who He is. Mary falls short of that.
If ou agree then you must agree to the first part that all have sinned.
 
Henning said:
So noone gets the prize?? 🤷
by the way…what was the prize…after how many…OVER 700 POSTS ??? 🙂 …oh yea…knock Ag_not out of her journey…actually sounds like a creepy prize…think I’d say no thanks to it even if I could (not that I could or anything)…that’s it for me folks…I’m outa here…
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No No No No No - not at all. 😦 Educate me on my journey. 👍 Prove to me what Ive been told about the church teaching contrary to the Bible true.

Henning - I said in another post I enjoyed your contributions as I think you are a very genuine honest person. And no, noone proved the catholic church teaches anything that contradicts the Bible, the allegation that has been made directly to me many times. I think even you would have to agree with that.
 
Martin777 said:
This is why most Christians on the planet do not pray to Mary…
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And most people are not Christians. So your point being?

Rational arguments Martin, please. It is very trying to have to disprove fallacies when we could be having an intelligient discussion.
 
Hisalone said:
My point is all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. Even Mary. The Glory of God is is His weightyness, His splendor. It is part of His charactor of His who He is. Mary falls short of that.
If ou agree then you must agree to the first part that all have sinned.
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But Hisalone, you didn’t take that point from the text you just quoted.

“All” is not to be taken literally there. If it were, we would have logically impossible teachings, such as Jesus is a sinner, and babies are sinners.
 
Kavod Elohim defined:
  1. Kavod Elohim describes Yahweh’s splendor & majesty. (I Chr. 29:11, Heb. 3:3-5)
    • A glory so great that no human being can see it and live. (Ex. 33:18-23)
    • At best one can see only an “appearance of the likeness of the glory of
    Adonai.” (Ezekiel 1:26-28)
    • Kavod Elohim designates His uniqueness and holiness. (Isaiah 6:1-3)
    • The majestic glory. (II Peter 1:17)
  2. Kavod Elohim also refers to Yahweh’s visible presence among His people, called
    “shekinah.” Shekinah: Dwelling of God, implying a visible manifestation of
    God’s presence and glory.
    Examples:
    • Moshe saw God’s shekinah (glory or kavod) in the pillars of cloud and fire
    (Exodus 13:21)
    • It covered Sinai when Yahweh gave the law (Ex. 24:16-18)
    • Filled the tabernacle (Ex. 40:34-35)
    • Guided Israel in the desert (Ex. 40:36-38)
    • Filled Solomon’s temple (II Chronicles 7:1, I Kings 8:11-13)
    • More specifically, Yahweh lived between the cherubim in the most holy place
    (Psalm 80:1, Ezekiel 10:4, 18-19)
    • Yeshua, who as the glory of Yahweh in human flesh came to make His dwelling
    among us (John 1:14)
  3. A third aspect of Yahweh’s glory is the holy presence and power in human
    beings and nature.
    a. The heavens declare the glory of God (Psalm 19:1, Romans 1:19-20)
    b. The whole earth is filled with His glory (Isaiah 6:3, Hebrews 2:14)
    Kavod Elohim in the Tenach:
  • The glory of Yahweh appears as a great light or the manifest presence of
    God’s glory among His people; nations and rulers will come to Him
    because of the brightness of His light. (Isaiah 60:1)
  • Joel predicts a day when Elohim would pour out His Ruach on everyone
    who calls on the name of the Lord. (Joel 2:28-32)
    Kavod Elohim in the Brit Chadasha:
  • The fulfillment of these prophecies is the incarnation of the Messiah Yeshua and
    His anointed ministry in Galilee and all over Israel. John 1: 4-5, 9,14,17
  • In the first Messianic believers’ lives, in Yerushalayim, the glory of God
    manifested itself in 3 ways:
  1. Audible manifestation - Was a sound like the blowing of a violent wind. (Acts 2: 2)
  2. Visible manifestation - There also appeared visually what seemed to be tongues of
    fire that rested on each of the disciples as a prophetic symbol that the Holy Spirit (Ruach
    Hakodesh ) was coming to empower them to be fiery, contagious witnesses for Yeshua.
    (Acts 2:3)
  3. Spoken manifestation - As the first Messianic believers were being filled with the
    Ruach Hakodesh they began to speak in different tongues as the Ruach enabled them.
    The other tongues on this occasion were a variety of different languages understood by
    the people from different nations who were in the town at the time. (Acts 2: 4)
    Kavod Elohim is working in our life day by day.
    Are we ready and do we hunger for His Glory now?
    I encourage you to invite and open your heart to Ruach Hakodesh.
    Shalom.
    Rabbi Kokeb Gedamu
    Messiah 2007
 
Hisalone said:
It cant be over.
No one has answered the question what is the glory of God?
For all have fallen short of the glory of God
All includes Adam, All includes Mary.
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You never responded to my repeated requests for your understanding of what I posted in post 254#

Can I have your response now please.
 
From the Catholic Encyclopedia:

In the English version of the Bible the word Glory, one of the commonest in the Scripture, is used to translate several Hebrew terms in the Old Testament, and the Greek doxa in the New Testament. Sometimes the Catholic versions employ brightness, where others use glory. When this occurs, the original signifies, as it frequently does elsewhere, a physical, visible phenomenon. This meaning is found for instance in Exodus 24:16: “And the glory of the Lord dwelt upon Sinai”; in Luke, ii, 9, and in the account of the Transfiguration on Mount Thabor. In very many places the term is employed to signify the witness which the created universe bears to the nature of its Creator, as an effect reveals the character of its cause. Frequently in the New Testament it signifies a manifestation of the Divine Majesty, truth, goodness or some other attribute through His incarnate Son, as, for instance, in John, I, 14: “(and we saw his glory, the glory as it were of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth”; Luke, ii, 32, “A light to the revelation of the Gentiles, and the glory of thy people Israel”; and throughout the prayer of Christ for his disciples, John 17. Here too, as elsewhere, we find the idea that the perception of this manifested truth works towards a union of man with God. In other passages glory is equivalent to praise rendered to God in acknowledgment of His majesty and perfections manifested objectively in the world, or through supernatural revelation: “Thou art worthy, O Lord our God, to receive glory, and honour, and power: because thou hast created all things”, Apoc., iv, 11: “Give glory to the Lord, and call upon his name”, Psalm 104:1.
 
Hisalone said:
The glory of God is the manifestation of all of His attributes. He is perfectly holy, righteous, just, good, wise, eternal, immortal, unchanging …
www.cbcfargo.com/resources/promise/08.html
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Jesus was born subject to the Law. He therefore obeyed the commandment of honoring your parents. So thereofore Jesus honored Mary.

In Hebrew, the word for honor is “covoda” which means to give glory. So Jesus bestowed glory on Mary. If we honor Mary, we are only following Jesus who did it first.
 
Ag_not said:
Earlier in the chapter, Paul says as it is written in other words, he is quoting the Old Testament. Psalm 14 to be precise. Now, look at that scripture:

1 For the leader. Of David. 2 Fools say in their hearts, “There is no God.” Their deeds are loathsome and corrupt; **not one **does what is right.
2
The LORD looks down from heaven upon the human race, To see if **even one **is wise, if even one seeks God.
3
All have gone astray; all alike are perverse. **Not one does what is right, not even one. **4
Will these evildoers never learn? **They devour my people **as they devour bread; they do not call upon the LORD.
5
They have good reason, then, to fear; ***God is with the company of the just. ***
6
**They **would crush the hopes of the poor, but the poor have the LORD as their refuge.

Now, here the psalmist, which Paul is quoting says very clearly, as Paul does, ALL. But does all mean all??? How can it when a few lines along we read MY PEOPLE. That is, God’s people. So the all, is not actually all, but those people NOT of God’s people. The Evil Doers. Otherwise, if the all meant all people, that is every single solitary person, then who are the ‘‘company of the just’’, or in the RSV_CE version, the generation of the righteous???

So, now you know that all doesnt always mean actually all, where do we go from here.

The wages of sin is death. If you have sin, you will die. Yes? Are there people in the Bible who we are told did Not die? IF they didnt die, does that mean they did not collect the wages of sin?
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Enoch and Elijah were translated to heaven. Why?
Did they sin? I say yes.
 
Angels_Unaware said:
But Hisalone, you didn’t take that point from the text you just quoted.

“All” is not to be taken literally there. If it were, we would have logically impossible teachings, such as Jesus is a sinner, and babies are sinners.
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And the round goes to …Angels.
 
benedictus2 said:
Jesus was born subject to the Law. He therefore obeyed the commandment of honoring your parents. So thereofore Jesus honored Mary.

In Hebrew, the word for honor is “covoda” which means to give glory. So Jesus bestowed glory on Mary. If we honor Mary, we are only following Jesus who did it first.
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We can honor Mary without diefying her, or making stuff up about her.
 
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