Ag_nots Catholic Scriptural Challenge - just ONE proven example wins!!

[twb1621]

I pray that some day, before it is too late, you will understand what millions the world over have discovered about the atonement, the new birth, the assurance of salvation that can never be taken away from you, the real NY definition of ‘saint’, and the sufficiency of Scripture. Until then, I’m afraid you’ll be like that man Nicodemus, who went to temple three times every day, prayed like crazy, and asked Jesus, “What do you mean, ‘born again’” And you’ll wonder what all the fuss is–all the excitement and evangelism. God Bless You

there may be millions the world over who believe as you do, but there are over a billion who still follow the original Church founded by Jesus. I was born again but I don’t take for granted the blood of my savior. I’d rather consider myself the tax collector humbled before God and performing good works for the love of others in the Love I have for Him than claim rightiousness regardless of what sins I may fall to in my life.

Jesus addressed this parable to those who were convinced of their own righteousness and despised everyone else.

“Two people went up to the temple area to pray; one was a Pharisee and the other was a tax collector.
The Pharisee took up his position and spoke this prayer to himself, ‘O God, I thank you that I am not like the rest of humanity greedy, dishonest, adulterous or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week, and I pay tithes on my whole income.’ But the tax collector stood off at a distance and would not even raise his eyes to heaven but beat his breast and prayed, ‘O God, be merciful to me a sinner.’ I tell you, the latter went home justified, not the former; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and the one who humbles himself will be exalted.” Who would you rather be in this parable? Gospel (Lk 18:9-14)

 

[Hisalone]

Hisalone…

You’re asking “did Mary fall short of the glory of God?”

We know that Mary did not sin… but it was not because of her own power. She was saved by God from the stain of original sin from the moment of her conception. She was saved from sin to be the mother of our Lord, she was FILLED with grace! This was a gift from God.

Mary is not God… Catholics do not worship Mary. I think I should make that my signature line, because it seems no matter how many times I repeat it, there are still non Catholics who don’t believe me.

Mary is was not “like” God because she was fully human. But we know she did not sin, because of God’s great gift of grace.

So for “all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God” I guess you could say "all have sinned, except Jesus and Mary and infants/children before the age of reason… and all fall short of the glory of God except God.

I’m not sure how this makes you “right?” What prize are you trying to win? I only know of two forces in this universe that fight for souls…

Please read the explanations given concerning your "all have sinned" passage... I would be interested especially to hear your take on how Tantum_ergo applied it to the context of the Psalm.

In the mean time…it would also be interesting to hear how you believe Enoch and Elijah were sanctified by faith…

I know for the most part Catholics do not view Mary as divine. How do you know that Mary did not sin?
Because of the doctrine of Immaculate Conception.
The Catholic Curch waited 1800 years to finalize this doectrine from oral tradition. What took it so long? Could the oral tradition have been corrupted during this time? If this traditions was so important for the church to follow why was it not in the gospels or ACTS?

Enoch and Elijah were just men who walked in faith. I dont know why they were translated and others not but they were.

 

[Angels_Unaware]

I know for the most part Catholics do not view Mary as divine. How do you know that Mary did not sin?
Because of the doctrine of Immaculate Conception.
The Catholic Curch waited 1800 years to finalize this doectrine from oral tradition. What took it so long? Could the oral tradition have been corrupted during this time? If this traditions was so important for the church to follow why was it not in the gospels or ACTS?

Enoch and Elijah were just men who walked in faith. I dont know why they were translated and others not but they were.

NO that is not why Catholics believe the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception. The doctrine was not created out of thin air. It is implicit in scripture. It is necessary to understand the Incarnation fully and completely, and to understand God’s nature and our nature.

To be very simple and not get into in depth, the Immaculate Conception is implicit because Christ drew His nature from his mother, and that nature had to be without spot to be able to save us. Those who say his mother did not have to be pure for Him to be pure might as well say Christ was born out of a rock like a pagan god. He had to be fully human, but that human nature was necessarily a redeemed human nature, made perfect as Adam and Eve before the fall.

 

[Hisalone]

This is the third time I’ve answered, and that is in addition to the other answers you’ve received. YES, Mary ‘falls short of the glory of God’ in that she is not God. NO, Mary did not sin.

If you are trying to demonstrate that the verse “all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God” means that IF you sin THEN you fall short of the glory of God, you are logically correct.

However, if you are trying to argue that IF you fall short of the glory of God, THEN you must sin, you are NOT logically correct. That is an error of thinking.

NOW. If you have even a shred of integrity you will produce an answer for the question that is posed to YOU.

My point is all this is the verse says all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. The word and connecting sinned with fallen short of indicates that it is a compound statement. If all have fallen short of the glory of God then all have sinned.
When I first posed this question of friday many said that Adam and Eve since they were made without sin did not fall short of the glory of God.
As or Enoch and Elijah I answered in my last post.

 

[Realcatholicgk]

Hisalone:
Perhaps you can answer my question.

**I would be glad to, Just calm, down, take a deep brreath…hold it…let it out…Again! Feel better?
**

No other Catholic can.

Wow! And you expect me to. I am as ignorant as a Reformed Baptist in my knowledge of religion. But, I can try! Is there a prize? I am ready, what are the questions?

Did Mary fall short of the glory of God?

**

Oh, Of course not, you silly goose! freesmileys.org/smileys/whacky115.gif Would God had allowed her to be His mother? Would He her the Mother of His church? Would He assume her Body and soul into heaven if she did? Boy That was easy, I hope the next question is harder! **

Can you explain how Enoch and Elijah did not suffer from original sin?

I noticed you quoted a Jewish Rabbi, May I be so bold as to give you a “Jewish” answer to that question?

Who do I look like, God?"

**Now the Christian" answer. Because God decided that he didn’t want them to? If you don’t believe me, ask God! **

**Anything else that you can’t figure out for youself, just ask! I read a lot of books! **

**NOTE TO OTHER CATHOLICS: I, personally am ashamed of you people. You can’t even answer such easy questions for Hisalone? Shame, Shame! **

freesmileys.org/smileys/laughing024.gif

**God Bless
**

 

[Angels_Unaware]

My point is all this is the verse says all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. The word and connecting sinned with fallen short of indicates that it is a compound statement. If all have fallen short of the glory of God then all have sinned.
When I first posed this question of friday many said that Adam and Eve since they were made without sin did not fall short of the glory of God.
As or Enoch and Elijah I answered in my last post.

The angels in heaven are without sin and without the nature of original sin, and they fall short of the Glory of God.

What you have said is illogical and impossible and not what scripture teaches.

The ones talking about Adam and Eve were right that if they meant the term ‘falling short of the glory of God’ as a euphemism for ‘without original sin’. But YOU are the person who is insisting it means more than that here.

 

[twb1621]

Man Made Doctrine

you are obviously trying to enter a discussion that you have no valid knowledge in. Or perhaps you just want to advocate the debate further without a valid point to make.

 

[Hisalone]

NO that is not why Catholics believe the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception. The doctrine was not created out of thin air. It is implicit in scripture. It is necessary to understand the Incarnation fully and completely, and to understand God’s nature and our nature.

To be very simple and not get into in depth, the Immaculate Conception is implicit because Christ drew His nature from his mother, and that nature had to be without spot to be able to save us. Those who say his mother did not have to be pure for Him to be pure might as well say Christ was born out of a rock like a pagan god. He had to be fully human, but that human nature was necessarily a redeemed human nature, made perfect as Adam and Eve before the fall.

This is why non Catholics do not accept many Catholic doctrines. Its as if Catholics reverse engineer scripture to fit their doctrines rather than dig doctrine out of scrpture.
For Mary is not the lesser if she did not remain a virgin. For many Catholics it is unthinkable that Mary did not remain a virgin.
And agian I think of Jesus no less than if Mary had sinned it in no way deminishes Him.

 

[Hisalone]

The angels in heaven are without sin and without the nature of original sin, and they fall short of the Glory of God.

Agreed

What you have said is illogical and impossible and not what scripture teaches.

I obviously disagree
The ones talking about Adam and Eve were right that if they meant the term ‘falling short of the glory of God’ as a euphemism for ‘without original sin’. But YOU are the person who is insisting it means more than that here.

Does it not?

 

[Hisalone]

Perhaps you can answer my question.

**I would be glad to, Just calm, down, take a deep brreath…hold it…let it out…Again! Feel better?
**

No other Catholic can.

Wow! And you expect me to. I am as ignorant as a Reformed Baptist in my knowledge of religion. But, I can try! Is there a prize? I am ready, what are the questions?

Did Mary fall short of the glory of God?

**

Oh, Of course not, you silly goose! freesmileys.org/smileys/whacky115.gif** Would God had allowed her to be His mother? Would He her the Mother of His church? Would He assume her Body and soul into heaven if she did? Boy That was easy, I hope the next question is harder!

Can you explain how Enoch and Elijah did not suffer from original sin?

I noticed you quoted a Jewish Rabbi, May I be so bold as to give you a “Jewish” answer to that question?

Who do I look like, God?"

**Now the Christian" answer. Because God decided that he didn’t want them to? If you don’t believe me, ask God! **

**Anything else that you can’t figure out for youself, just ask! I read a lot of books! **

**NOTE TO OTHER CATHOLICS: I, personally am ashamed of you people. You can’t even answer such easy questions for Hisalone? Shame, Shame! **

freesmileys.org/smileys/laughing024.gif

**God Bless
**

Do you understand the the glory of God is a quality of His divinity?

 

[Angels_Unaware]

Does it not?

Yes, the verse means two things. First, “all” have sinned, as in all men born with a sin nature and who have reached the age of conscience, and second, that all have fallen short of the glory of God.

In the second case, the whole body of Scripture testifies that none is like God, so “all” is literal.

In the first case,the whole body of Scripture does not testiy that “all” have sinned, so it is figurative.

 

[twb1621]

My point is all this is the verse says all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. The word and connecting sinned with fallen short of indicates that it is a compound statement. If all have fallen short of the glory of God then all have sinned.
When I first posed this question of friday many said that Adam and Eve since they were made without sin did not fall short of the glory of God.
As or Enoch and Elijah I answered in my last post.

Do you realize how silly it is for a person to hang on to one single word in all the scripture verses but completely ignore many complete and clearly ritten verses in scripture at the same time? Do you acknowledge that scripture does not conflict with itself? because if you do, you should realize your interpretations have serious defects. If you are not sure which ones I can point them out to you again seeing as how you must have missed them earlier in the thread.

 

[Angels_Unaware]

This is why non Catholics do not accept many Catholic doctrines. Its as if Catholics reverse engineer scripture to fit their doctrines rather than dig doctrine out of scrpture.
For Mary is not the lesser if she did not remain a virgin. For many Catholics it is unthinkable that Mary did not remain a virgin.
And agian I think of Jesus no less than if Mary had sinned it in no way deminishes Him.

What is this? You are not addressing the theological arguments that led to the declaration of this dogma. You are spouting off your own prejudices. That should be a clue to you that you are not being guided by the Holy Spirit, since all you have to offer are your assumptions and prejudices, and do not honestly address theology.

When you say, “I think no less of Jesus if Mary sinned”, then why does it even matter if Jesus were conceived without Joseph’s carnal knowledge of Mary? This reminds me of a left-wing Protestant minister I heard say, “It wouldn’t matter if Jesus’ father were an anonymous Roman solider who raped Mary”.

If God is God, His son can can come to earth through natural means just as easily as supernatural means.

 

[Hisalone]

Do you realize how silly it is for a person to hang on to one single word in all the scripture verses but completely ignore many complete and clearly ritten verses in scripture at the same time? Do you acknowledge that scripture does not conflict with itself? because if you do, you should realize your interpretations have serious defects. If you are not sure which ones I can point them out to you again seeing as how you must have missed them earlier in the thread.

But of course that is why the Immaculate Conception is contrary to scripture. That is why transubstansiation is contrary to scripture.

 

[twb1621]

This is why non Catholics do not accept many Catholic doctrines. Its as if Catholics reverse engineer scripture to fit their doctrines rather than dig doctrine out of scrpture.
For Mary is not the lesser if she did not remain a virgin. For many Catholics it is unthinkable that Mary did not remain a virgin.
And agian I think of Jesus no less than if Mary had sinned it in no way deminishes Him.

support your accusation. you can’t can you?

 

[Angels_Unaware]

But of course that is why the Immaculate Conception is contrary to scripture. That is why transubstansiation is contrary to scripture.

Based on what? Romans 3:23? But I already showed you that is fully inadequate as a proof text, and if you have any intellectual honesty you must admit that.

So what else have you got?

 

[Hisalone]

What is this? You are not addressing the theological arguments that led to the declaration of this dogma. You are spouting off your own prejudices. That should be a clue to you that you are not being guided by the Holy Spirit, since all you have to offer are your assumptions and prejudices, and do not honestly address theology.

When you say, “I think no less of Jesus if Mary sinned”, then why does it even matter if Jesus were conceived without Joseph’s carnal knowledge of Mary? This reminds me of a left-wing Protestant minister I heard say, “It wouldn’t matter if Jesus’ father were an anonymous Roman solider who raped Mary”.

If God is God, His son can can come to earth through natural means just as easily as supernatural means.

God is God He does what He wants.
We have been given His word so that we may learn more about Him. One who never heard of Marys perpetual virginity would never arrive at that conclsion by reading the bible so it is you who have brougt your prejudices to the table.

 

[fbl9]

Did Mary fall short of the glory of God?

does a soul stained with sin magnify the Lord?no it can’t…so Mary did not fall short of His Glory for she obeyed God perfectly just as her son Jesus did.

 

[Hisalone]

does a soul stained with sin magnify the Lord?no it can’t…so Mary did not fall short of His Glory for she obeyed God perfectly just as her son Jesus did.

Again the glory of God is a quality of His divinty

 

[bett_ur_kidding]

But of course that is why the Immaculate Conception is contrary to scripture. That is why transubstansiation is contrary to scripture.

And the list goes on:

Popes
Priest
Confession
Purgatory
Eucharist
Celibacy
Cathecism
Nuns
Idols
Lent

Can anybody think of something else?