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Walt_Oliver
Guest
General Warning: Please discuss the topic, not each other.
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3boyzmom
Guest
Like someone else who responded to your post earlier on, I used to consider myself anti-abortion but pro-death penalty. Then after a great deal of soul-searching I realized that these two stances are not compatible.
To put someone to death takes away any possibility of their finding salvation. I believe that we do not have the right to do this.
At the same time, prisons are overcrowded and costing the taxpayers gazillions of dollars. Many who are released re-offend. This is not a pretty picture and only likely to get worse. However, this doesn’t take away the fact that capital punishment takes away the opportunity for salvation.
While inhumane treatment for prisoners might sound satisfying to some people, it serves as punishment, but if that person is ever released on parole, then you will have a far angrier and more hardened person loose on the streets than you had at the time he committed his crime.
So, for lack of any perfect answers, and to answer your original question, my opinion is this:
It is human for us to want to see someone punished. But while we are responsible for protecting society, we are not given the power to “punish.” God makes these judgments, and He will judge each of us according to the way we have lived our lives. So, even if a killer goes free because of a sympathetic jury or a hot-shot lawyer- he will still have his time of judgment, as will we all.
To put someone to death takes away any possibility of their finding salvation. I believe that we do not have the right to do this.
At the same time, prisons are overcrowded and costing the taxpayers gazillions of dollars. Many who are released re-offend. This is not a pretty picture and only likely to get worse. However, this doesn’t take away the fact that capital punishment takes away the opportunity for salvation.
While inhumane treatment for prisoners might sound satisfying to some people, it serves as punishment, but if that person is ever released on parole, then you will have a far angrier and more hardened person loose on the streets than you had at the time he committed his crime.
So, for lack of any perfect answers, and to answer your original question, my opinion is this:
- speedier trials, fewer appeals (or less time getting them processed).
- The court system should revamp its policies on things like allowing new evidence, etc.
- Once in prison, provide counseling and occupational training for prisoners (I know, I know, you’re right, it won’t help most of them- but if it helps one find his way, is that not worthy?)
- Provide plenty of opportunity and encouragement for spiritual counseling.
- Do NOT provide video games, movies, gym equipment, computers, etc.
- Guards should treat prisoners not as friends, but also not as human garbage. We all should treat others with dignity. (Did you ever see “The Green Mile”? Great movie- “Dead Man Walking”, also excellent.
- Have them do productive work; such as manufacturing useful items for the public.
It is human for us to want to see someone punished. But while we are responsible for protecting society, we are not given the power to “punish.” God makes these judgments, and He will judge each of us according to the way we have lived our lives. So, even if a killer goes free because of a sympathetic jury or a hot-shot lawyer- he will still have his time of judgment, as will we all.
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vern_humphrey
Guest
One strong objection to the death penalty is that innocent men can be convicted. I have pointed out that death penalty cases are the best justice we have – people facing the death penalty get special safeguards “ordinary” defendants don’t get.
If we are convicting innocent men in death penalty cases, how many more innocent men are being convicted in “ordinary” cases?
And, as some have pointed out, sometimes a prison sentence is worse than a dealth sentence.
Clearly, a solution that makes it easier for the innocent to be convicted, and harder for them to have a conviction reversed, is contra-indicated.
If you mean make it easier to introduce new evidence, that’s good.
One problem here is that there are a lot of truly dangerous people in prison. Counseling and training can put counsellors and trainers at risk.
Our real problem is to balance safety with justice.
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KathleenElsie
Guest
IMHO and only IMHO
**DNA testing if applicable and available should be provided and used. After this one and only one, appeal should be automatic. In the case of murder or other life ending crimes there should be no parole. Prior to the death sentence (if it is still allowed) DNA should be checked and compared to the evidence if not done prior.
Those that commit these crimes should be placed in prison for life. The definition of life is till all body functions end. Till that time they should be allowed no family visits, TV cable or otherwise, no e-mail or mail, no touching by others unless it is for medical reasons and last of all no canteen to purchase luxuries. This is because they have taken these things from the person that died and because those family and friends left behind have been denied these things also.
The diet should be nourishing and healthy. Exercise alone daily. Showers and hygiene daily. Reminders of why they are there. The diet does not have to include special foods. Yet, it can follow the religious beliefs of the prisoner. The other things are to protect the workers from working under un-healthfull conditions.
They should have closed circuit video of church services of his/her choice and any and all reading material that pertains to salvation and the forgiveness of God. This is in the hopes of repentance for sins committed. Forgiveness is not the same as letting the person “get out free.” The worldly punishment continues till death of the body.
You asked. I just gave you my opinion. Take it as you will.
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**DNA testing if applicable and available should be provided and used. After this one and only one, appeal should be automatic. In the case of murder or other life ending crimes there should be no parole. Prior to the death sentence (if it is still allowed) DNA should be checked and compared to the evidence if not done prior.
Those that commit these crimes should be placed in prison for life. The definition of life is till all body functions end. Till that time they should be allowed no family visits, TV cable or otherwise, no e-mail or mail, no touching by others unless it is for medical reasons and last of all no canteen to purchase luxuries. This is because they have taken these things from the person that died and because those family and friends left behind have been denied these things also.
The diet should be nourishing and healthy. Exercise alone daily. Showers and hygiene daily. Reminders of why they are there. The diet does not have to include special foods. Yet, it can follow the religious beliefs of the prisoner. The other things are to protect the workers from working under un-healthfull conditions.
They should have closed circuit video of church services of his/her choice and any and all reading material that pertains to salvation and the forgiveness of God. This is in the hopes of repentance for sins committed. Forgiveness is not the same as letting the person “get out free.” The worldly punishment continues till death of the body.
You asked. I just gave you my opinion. Take it as you will.
**
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thistle
Guest
Proelium Frater:
Another poster made a very good point about innocent people being put to death. Having the death penalty is never worth it if even only one innocent person is executed. Apart from the death penalty being considered inhuman, the issue of innocent people being executed is one of the reasons the European countries have long since abolished the death penalty.
I would say that all countries or any US State that still have the death penalty are morally bankrupt.
Christ came to redeem sinners not to kill them. Look at St. Paul. He actively persecuted Christians and participated in the murder of Stephen, the first Christian martyr. If he had not been redeemed and changed his life who knows where Christianity would have been today.
Its up to the Government (or maybe each State if in the USA) to decide prison conditions for each category of prisoner** but all ** prisoners should be treated humanely, whatever they have done, otherwise we just become the same vicious animals you want put to death.
Another poster made a very good point about innocent people being put to death. Having the death penalty is never worth it if even only one innocent person is executed. Apart from the death penalty being considered inhuman, the issue of innocent people being executed is one of the reasons the European countries have long since abolished the death penalty.
I would say that all countries or any US State that still have the death penalty are morally bankrupt.
Christ came to redeem sinners not to kill them. Look at St. Paul. He actively persecuted Christians and participated in the murder of Stephen, the first Christian martyr. If he had not been redeemed and changed his life who knows where Christianity would have been today.
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InSearchOfGod
Guest
Proelium Frater:
Prisons of course need to be restructured, though I’m sure they will never be perfect. And I’m sure no one here can give you a perfect solution for a perfect non-violent prison. You get people who commit crimes and put them all together you think they will just stop and live in peace? Of course not. But killing them isn’t going to make life better for them, that’s like having an abortion because you think the child will have a bad life if allowed to live.
And you believe the death penalty is working? Because if it was, no one would ever commit another crime? There will always be criminals, there will always be evil, until the end of the world.
Prisons of course need to be restructured, though I’m sure they will never be perfect. And I’m sure no one here can give you a perfect solution for a perfect non-violent prison. You get people who commit crimes and put them all together you think they will just stop and live in peace? Of course not. But killing them isn’t going to make life better for them, that’s like having an abortion because you think the child will have a bad life if allowed to live.
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Anna_s_Mom
Guest
I’m torn here. While If someone were to hurt one of my loved ones I would want to see them suffer. (i’m sure that is sinful, but I imagine it it a human emotion) I do believe that if more murders and rapists were put to death there would be less of these crimes, but if we put them to death isn’t that just “playing God” ? Who are we to decide who dies? two wrongs don’t make a right.
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Proelium_Frater
Guest
No I don’t believe it is working. We don’t execute nearly enough people for it to have a deterrent effect.
If the criminal knew 100% for-sure that he would be executed upon conviction for his crimes, then it might have a deterrent effect. You would see a drop in crime, partially because the court system would be like a roach motel- Once they check in, they don’t check out. You would no longer have the ‘revolving door’ effect with criminals. I’m not saying its the perfect solution, but this half-assed death penalty we have now sure as heck doesn’t work. Either step it up, or shut it down.
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KathleenElsie
Guest
**I believe that the death penalty was originally a way for those that were in power to send someone to “Hll" as punishment or personal reasons. The thought was and in some cases still is "you sinned you die you go to Hll because I have judged you.”
In my perfect world no crime would happen and there would be no need to separate the criminal from the population. But, till then it is necessary to separate them from society.
In our Catholic belief we believe that as sinner we will probably spend some “time” in purgatory. We sin we truly repent and when we die we receive our punishment till we have “paid” and can enter the Kingdom of GOD. You break man’s law and are punished until the allotted timed ends. To separate and punish the lawbreaker is the intended goal. While in prison they have a chance to repent and then go into purgatory, as any sinner will, for Gods justice.
**
In my perfect world no crime would happen and there would be no need to separate the criminal from the population. But, till then it is necessary to separate them from society.
In our Catholic belief we believe that as sinner we will probably spend some “time” in purgatory. We sin we truly repent and when we die we receive our punishment till we have “paid” and can enter the Kingdom of GOD. You break man’s law and are punished until the allotted timed ends. To separate and punish the lawbreaker is the intended goal. While in prison they have a chance to repent and then go into purgatory, as any sinner will, for Gods justice.
**
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JimO
Guest
Steven Merten:
Thanks for the response. I agree that this is the reason for the command in Genesis; however, I am concerned that we are reading into God’s motives with our own fallen nature, which is inherently vindictive and unjust. The Israelites were nomadic and had not the means by which to imprison anyone. They only had corporal punishment, with death being reserved for those crimes which endangered others, either physically or spiritually. Our society has the means to imprison people and that is why the Church opposes the death penalty in developed nations.
I would submit that most people favor the death penalty not to protect others, but because they want the “bad guy to get what he deserves” and we claim this is just. But, our notion of justice is not like God’s. How about the parable where the workers who worked a full day received the same wage as those who worked an hour? Or the Prodigal Son? Isn’t it in our nature to sympathize with the workers who complained or with the elder son? I know that is my gut reaction. Why? Because our notion of justice is self centered and askew. God’s justice is beyond our understanding and, therefore, we rely on the teachings of the Church to fill in the gaps of our understanding. The Church opposes the death penalty and I let this form my understanding of God’s justice.
Regarding the passage from Genesis, if we are going to take individual OT Scripture verses to justify punishment, then couldn’t a case be made for public stoning of those guilty of blasphemy?
On the original topic, I would advocate harsh, but humane conditions in prisons. Make prisoners work and give them the bare necessities of life. They certainly should not be living in better conditions than our soldiers in Iraq or the inner city poor. Take their freedom - yes, take their comfort - yes, take their ability to choose - yes, take their life - no.
Hi Steve,
Thanks for the response. I agree that this is the reason for the command in Genesis; however, I am concerned that we are reading into God’s motives with our own fallen nature, which is inherently vindictive and unjust. The Israelites were nomadic and had not the means by which to imprison anyone. They only had corporal punishment, with death being reserved for those crimes which endangered others, either physically or spiritually. Our society has the means to imprison people and that is why the Church opposes the death penalty in developed nations.
I would submit that most people favor the death penalty not to protect others, but because they want the “bad guy to get what he deserves” and we claim this is just. But, our notion of justice is not like God’s. How about the parable where the workers who worked a full day received the same wage as those who worked an hour? Or the Prodigal Son? Isn’t it in our nature to sympathize with the workers who complained or with the elder son? I know that is my gut reaction. Why? Because our notion of justice is self centered and askew. God’s justice is beyond our understanding and, therefore, we rely on the teachings of the Church to fill in the gaps of our understanding. The Church opposes the death penalty and I let this form my understanding of God’s justice.
Regarding the passage from Genesis, if we are going to take individual OT Scripture verses to justify punishment, then couldn’t a case be made for public stoning of those guilty of blasphemy?
On the original topic, I would advocate harsh, but humane conditions in prisons. Make prisoners work and give them the bare necessities of life. They certainly should not be living in better conditions than our soldiers in Iraq or the inner city poor. Take their freedom - yes, take their comfort - yes, take their ability to choose - yes, take their life - no.
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vern_humphrey
Guest
KathleenElsie said:
Kathleene, Dear, there were societies using the death penalty long before anyone believed in hell.
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InSearchOfGod
Guest
Proelium Frater:
So when you have control over him, is it right to kill him to try to make good come of it? (i.e. less crime) For the end never justifies the means.
There is something more important than whether or not executions work, and that is whether or not they are right. It is the taking of a human life. After a criminal is sentenced in court, then he’s not in control. You can not justify his execution by the danger he’s inflicting on others, because he’s not inflicting any danger while in handcuffs surrounded by officers (as opposed to a man with a gun in his hands and a group of hostages).
So when you have control over him, is it right to kill him to try to make good come of it? (i.e. less crime) For the end never justifies the means.
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LSK
Guest
Chris Jacobsen:
I think there have been some wonderful examples here of Catholic Christians trying to practice the teachings of the Holy Mother Church in the face of great personal pain, great personal hardship and within the framework of a society that tells us that when we do so somehow we are letting people ‘get away’ with stuff. I don’t think we are…and I think of the miracle of Claude Newman, and others who were converted behind bars and I know that in Christ and His Bride there is always hope.
I am against the death penalty. I believe that is a man or woman is forced to stay in prison and has access to spiritual counsel they have chance to repent and spend eternity in heaven, perhaps assisting St. Therese and doing good for all eternity.
I don’t think we are backwards, I think we are puzzled and confused. We want to protect society but we have lost faith in the fact that total protection only can come from God the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. We see horrific crimes committed, the victims and the sorrowful families and we forget that from great evil can come great good. We aren’t backwards, we are frail and sinful humans, struggling to find our way to the Truth and the Light.
I think there have been some wonderful examples here of Catholic Christians trying to practice the teachings of the Holy Mother Church in the face of great personal pain, great personal hardship and within the framework of a society that tells us that when we do so somehow we are letting people ‘get away’ with stuff. I don’t think we are…and I think of the miracle of Claude Newman, and others who were converted behind bars and I know that in Christ and His Bride there is always hope.
I am against the death penalty. I believe that is a man or woman is forced to stay in prison and has access to spiritual counsel they have chance to repent and spend eternity in heaven, perhaps assisting St. Therese and doing good for all eternity.
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vluvski
Guest
Steven Marten,
I think you totally missed my point. I was speaking of the proper attitude of those persons charged with the responsibility of carrying out a necessary execution for the state, or even an unecessary one for that matter, not trying to start a debate regarding the possibility of forgiveness. Unless a priest is completing or assisting in the execution, Jesus’ words do not apply.
IMO, the honor of being a soldier, in the broadest sense of the word, is lost when a person kills for the sake of sending someone to Hell for their sins.
I think you totally missed my point. I was speaking of the proper attitude of those persons charged with the responsibility of carrying out a necessary execution for the state, or even an unecessary one for that matter, not trying to start a debate regarding the possibility of forgiveness. Unless a priest is completing or assisting in the execution, Jesus’ words do not apply.
IMO, the honor of being a soldier, in the broadest sense of the word, is lost when a person kills for the sake of sending someone to Hell for their sins.
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wcknight
Guest
Proelium Frater:
For some criminals, bringing back cruel and unusual punishment would be true justice… swift execution or a lifetime in a cushy cell just doesn’t cut it. Medival torture may have been quite brutal, but some of the more heinous crimes are even more brutal and sadistic.
But the reality is that we as humans can not possibly come up with proper justice for horrific crimes, it is best that we leave these judgements up to the Almighty.
wc
I seriously doubt executing more people would have the desired effects either. Killers don’t worry about the consequences. Especially serial killers. They already know they will probably be killed either in a shoot out or caught and executed.
For some criminals, bringing back cruel and unusual punishment would be true justice… swift execution or a lifetime in a cushy cell just doesn’t cut it. Medival torture may have been quite brutal, but some of the more heinous crimes are even more brutal and sadistic.
But the reality is that we as humans can not possibly come up with proper justice for horrific crimes, it is best that we leave these judgements up to the Almighty.
wc
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Steven_Merten
Guest
Hello Al,
I salute you and thank you for your service in the United States military. I am a strong supporter of our troops and police officers.
The reason that I switched to Swiss Guard Church kills is because you were countering with “Thou Shalt Not Kill”. I wanted to clarify, as we have, that God’s commandment “Thou Shalt Not Kill” means Thou Shalt Not Murder. When Moses came down Mt. Sini with the commandment, “Thou Shalt Not Kill”, Love God with all your heart, love your neighbor as yourself, take no revenge, he then immediately lead Levite troops into combat against his own countrymen, killing three thousand of them. He did this to gain control of the golden calf debatury and chaos. From that day forward the Levites became special ministers unto the Lord for their service in combat under the leadership of Moses.
Also the reason that God reprimanded the Israelites to wondering in the desert for forty years was to wait for all the war protestors to die. God was going to lead the Isrealites to victory into the promised land but the Isrealites on reconossance decieved Moses and the Isrealites into not invading because they were afraid of the warriors they would be fighting.
Once everyone agrees that Jesus and the Father are not against all killing, only murder, then we can move on and talk about capital punishment. Before this is accomplished it seems senceless to me to talk about capital punishment to those who think all killing is against the will of God.
Can you see why it is nessessary to talk about God acceptable kills before you start disscussing God acceptable/commanded kills that are contravercial in modern times?
Sure! Start a new thread. I would be interested to hear a veteran’s insight on the war.
NAB NUM 14:34
"Forty days you spent scouting the land; fory years shall you suffer for your crimes: one year for each day. Thus you will realize what it means to oppose me. I, the Lord have sworn to do this to all this wicked community that conspired against me: here in the desert they shall die to the last man."
And so it happened to the men whom Moses had sent to reconnoiter the land and whom on returning had set the whole community grumbling against him by spreading discouraging reports about the land where struck down by the LORD and died.
NAB NUM 13:31We cannot attack these people; they are too strong for us. So they spread discouraging reports among the Israelites about the land they had scouted, saying, “The land that we explored is a country that consumes its inhabitants. And all the people we saw there are huge men, veritable giants. We felt like mere grasshoppers, and so we must have seemed to them.”
**EXO 32:15 **
Moses then turned and came down the mountain with the two tablets that were written on both sides, front and back; tablets that were made by God, having inscriptions on them that were engraved by God himself.
NAB EXO 32:17…//…EXO 32:25
When Moses realized that, to the scornful joy of their foes, Aaron had let the people run wild, he stood at the gate of the camp and cried,** “Whoever is for the Lord, let him come to me!” All the Levites then rallied to him**, and he told them, “Thus says the LORD, the God of Israel: Put your sword on your hip everyone of you! Now go up and down the camp, from gate to gate, and slay your own kinsmen, your friends and neighbors!” The Levites carried out the command of Moses, and theat day there fell about three thousand of the people. Then Moses said, “Today you have been dedicated to the LORD, for you were against your own sons and kinsmen, to bring a blessing upon yourselves this day.”
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Steven_Merten
Guest
Hello Jim,
You have stated a point that I make often. Sometimes I think we in America and even Pope John Paul II focus too much on what America is doing rather than the world as a whole. When Pope John Paul II opposed capital punishment in wealthy America, using the logic that those who have the wealth to encarcerate should encarcerate rather than capital punish, he infact was approving of capital punishment in third world nations where they do not have enough money to eat much less encarcertate criminals. Third world nations account for much of the worlds population. So in reality, according to Pope John Paul II logic, he supported capital punishment in most of the world.
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JimO
Guest
Steven Merten:
Agreed. In poor nations, it is necessary to hold the fabric of society together. Even where necessary, however, it should be treated as a grave act that people shouldn’t take pleasure in. Its purpose is to protect others and not as a form of vengence. My concern is that many proponents of the death penalty are motivated not by the need for it in society, but by the “apparent justice” it serves, which, as I pointed out above, is a misplace human form of justice.
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LSK
Guest
Steven Merten:
No, I think the question of what is a viable alternative to capital punishment in this country has been answered. The question then becomes, would the alternatives presented satisfy our very human quest for revenge when we are wronged? I am not going to deny that I have this human weakness; the personal question becomes am I willing to try and offer that weakness up to Christ and purposely take an action that is contrary to that weakness, in order to follow Christ’s teachings?
I don’t think that argument holds - I think the argument he made regarding capital punishment and its use in the United States could also be applied to countries where there is a huge disparity of wealth, such as third world nations where there is a very small middle class. I think it made a bigger impact on America, because Americans (and this is just my opinion) have a tendency to listen to and take such thoughts to heart more than those of other nations - we don’t simply dismiss the arguments out of hand, so to speak, but actually consider them. Thus the words spark controversy. I don’t mean to disparage other countries and their overall moral make-up. I’ve heard what I have just expressed termed ‘American Guilt’ ect.
No, I think the question of what is a viable alternative to capital punishment in this country has been answered. The question then becomes, would the alternatives presented satisfy our very human quest for revenge when we are wronged? I am not going to deny that I have this human weakness; the personal question becomes am I willing to try and offer that weakness up to Christ and purposely take an action that is contrary to that weakness, in order to follow Christ’s teachings?
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vern_humphrey
Guest
What you have said is factually wrong. people in prison, under total control have managed to kill people – Tommy Silverstein, under 23-hour a day lockdown in Marion, the first “Supermax” prison not only managed to kill a corrections officer, he managed to put together a plot (with people he supposedly was unable to communicate with) for the simultaneous murder of several corrections officers – two were killed, in different areas of the prison.
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