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davidv
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It seems to me that you have am erronious understanding of original sin and its effects. Please study, or do so again more carefully, the treatment of OS in the Catechism, beginning at article 396.
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BobCatholic
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See CCC402 - All men are implicated in Adam’s sin - this means God holds us responsible for Adam and Eve’s sin.
The fact we are not in the Garden of Eden is proof that God continues to punish us for their sin.
The Catechism admits that our struggle against sin is a hard battle.
But all we have to do to go to hell is nothing. So our default setting is hell. But to go to heaven we have to work our tails off with huge amounts of suffering. Getting God’s grace is not that difficult - the sacraments restore it. But KEEPING IT is a HUGE struggle.
And all of this pain, suffering and struggle because two people sinned eons ago.
If I ever see Adam and Eve I want to slap them upside the head for what they did. They had NO RIGHT TO HURT ME!!!
Not only that, it is unjust for God to punish us for their sin.
If I were in the Garden of Eden I would NEVER have touched that tree. And I would have beaten that snake into a pulp with a tree branch if he dared to approach me.
It is FAR EASIER to keep one commandment in the Garden of Eden than hundreds outside of the garden of Eden.
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davidv
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This is not end of the story. CCC402 goes on to say:
No its not. That we are not is Eden is proof the A&E sinned.
I hope no Catholic denies this. God’s grace is sufficient to ensure victory over sin.
Individually, the commands are no more difficult to keep than the one given in the garden. Rarely do we have to deal with more than one at a time.
I’m not sure where you get hundreds of commands. There are ten OT commandments that Jesus sumarized with two - Love God, and Love neighbor. And the Church as five precepts to follow.
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BobCatholic
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And we got acquitted NOW?
[BIBLEDRB]Romans 8:23 [/BIBLEDRB]
says NO. We have not been redeemed yet, because our bodies have not been redeemed. That’s why we are not in the Garden of Eden. Jesus Christ didn’t do everything.
Correct. They sinned. We are punished. That is not just. This violates Deuternonomy 24 which prohibits the son to be punished for the sins of the father. The descendants are punished for the sins of the ancestor.
God sacrifices justice so that love is possible.
God’s grace is only for spiritual things. It does not solve temporal problems. God does not care about temporal things. He only cares about Spiritual things.
A&E had only ONE commandment. PERIOD. We don’t.
Went from 1 to six hundred something mitzvoh under Judaism, and down to 10 plus all the dozens of interpretations of each = hundreds. Plus the precepts + all the interpretations of said precepts. Pretty much the same.
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guanophore
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No, this is contrary to the teaching of the Church. We are under the consequence of Adam’s sin, but we are not guilty for their sins, nor are we held responsible for them.
No, we are born into a state of separation from the Garden of Eden because we have inherited the CONSEQUENCE of their sin. We are not being punished for their sins.
Yes, we have a fallen nature (concupiscence) that is like a gravitational pull into sin. Baptism, however, sets us free from sin, and the punishment of sin. When we walk in the Spirit, we will not fulfill the desires of the flesh.
No doubt of that. Thanks be to God that He will not let us be snatched from His hand!
Most of our pain and struggle we bring upon ourselves, because we fall prey to the world, the flesh, and the devil. God has already given us victory over these things, but we fail to exercise the power He has provided to make us victorious.
And then what about all the people who want to slap you, because of the poor witness you are being to God’s gracious gifts toward you?
Heb 6:4-8
For it is impossible to restore again to repentance those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they then commit apostasy,** since they crucify the Son of God on their own account and hold him up to contempt**. 7 For land which has drunk the rain that often falls upon it, and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is cultivated, receives a blessing from God. 8 But if it bears thorns and thistles, it is worthless and near to being cursed; its end is to be burned.
This is a dangerously arrogant position…
Isa 45:9
"Woe to him who strives with his Maker,
an earthen vessel with the potter!
Does the clay say to him who fashions it, ‘What are you making’?
or ‘Your work has no handles’?
Rom 9:15-16
“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16 So it depends not upon man’s will or exertion, but upon God’s mercy
If you really believe this,then start right now! When the tempter comes to you with lies, fight back ! Don’t accept the lies. Beat that devil to a pulp with the Sword of the Spirit, which is the Word of God! For he has surely approached you, and is surely whispering lies into your ears right here, right now.
God has given you the grace to overcome sin. You are no longer enslaved to it, unless you choose to become enslaved again.
Rom 8:31-39
31 What then shall we say to this? If God is for us, who is against us? 32 He who did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all, will he not also give us all things with him? 33 Who shall bring any charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies; 34 who is to condemn? Is it Christ Jesus, who died, yes, who was raised from the dead, who is at the right hand of God, who indeed intercedes for us? 35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? 36 As it is written,
“For thy sake we are being killed all the day long;
we are regarded as sheep to be slaughtered.”
37 No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. 38 For I am sure that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, 39 nor height, nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.
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TheTrueCentrist
Guest
But as I said earlier, the consequences are legislated and executed by God.
An example of children inheriting consequences might be pollution. If our ancestors polluted the planet significantly, we would be born into a world with higher rates of disease and environmental problems than normal. We would say that we inherited the consequences of our ancestor’s “sins.” However, we can’t say that nature is being unjust or punishing us because nature has no free will and does not set its own rules.
In this situation, however, God does have free will and does make his own rules. Therefore, for us to suffer the consequences of original sin requires deliberate action on the part of God. How can a willfully imposed negative consequence be anything other than a punishment? (disallowing the possibility that God is simply malicious)
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BobCatholic
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If we are not guilty for their sins, then holding us temporally responsible for their sin is unjust.
What’s the difference? We are not allowed in the Garden of Eden because we are subject to the same punishment. Being kicked out of the Garden of Eden is a punishment. Not allowed back in is a punishment. All for Adam and Eve’s sin.
I’m sure he is. God allows this.
That’s why I came here to this forum to answer my questions. I want to reject the devil.
I want a personal relationship with each person of the Triune God. I want to be a son of God (adopted)
However, I haven’t been adopted yet (Romans 8:23) My soul has, but not my body.
I’m not a son of God, I can’t even be a servant because I’m such a failure. So I’m Balaam’s donkey.
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guanophore
Guest
We are not responsible for their sins at all.
We suffer the consequences of their choices. But Jesus bore all the sins of humanity in HIs body on the cross, so we are no longer under law, but under grace. We have been set free from sin, and can now partake of the Divine Nature.
Then I suggest you pick up your cross and carry it, so that, for the joy set before you, you can endure until the end. Then you will be with Him for eternity.
Salvation is for now, as well as in the future. Jesus came to bring us the Kingdom today. If we wish, we can live in it now, and then with HIm forever.
This is good news, Bob. I have to say, I have become concerned reading some of your posts. You are already an adopted child of God. What is missing is that you are not acting according to your birthright. God gave you this time of freedom of distraction from employment so that you could form a new and deeper sense of identity in yourself, and toward Him. It is time for you to know through and through what it really means to be an adopted child of the King.
No, God adopted all of you, Body, Soul, and Spirit. Your flesh already belongs to HIm.
Gal 2:19-21
19 For I through the law died to the law, that I might live to God. 20 I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me; and the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. 21 I do not nullify the grace of God; for if justification were through the law, then Christ died to no purpose.
It is our duty to give the life we now live in the flesh to Him fully in consecration. It is no longer we who live, but Christ, who lives in us. That is why we must live every day as though we are on death row. We must hold no future for ourselves, but His will for us only. Therefore, if He wills that you be at prayer and ministry rather than a secular job, it is up to HIm.
So long as you deny your identity in Christ, you will be miserable. Please consider defining yourself according to His Word, rather than according to your feelings.
Gal 4:4-7
4 But when the time had fully come, God sent forth his Son, born of woman, born under the law, 5 to redeem those who were under the law, so that we might receive adoption as sons. 6 And because you are sons, God has sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, crying, “Abba! Father!” 7 So through God you are no longer a slave but a son, and if a son then an heir.
When we accept what God has told us, and act in accordance with it, then our lives fall into place. When we deny the Truth He has revealed to us, we are miserable.
We are to offer our bodies as a living sacrifice, which is our spiritual worship.
Rom 12:1-2
12:1 I appeal to you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your spiritual worship. 2 Do not be conformed to this world but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that you may prove what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect.
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TheTrueCentrist
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Isn’t that just a dodge? It is irrelevant what opportunities we have. Did we not have those same (if not better) opportunities before original sin?Then I suggest you pick up your cross and carry it, so that, for the joy set before you, you can endure until the end. Then you will be with Him for eternity.
Salvation is for now, as well as in the future. Jesus came to bring us the Kingdom today. If we wish, we can live in it now, and then with HIm forever.
I have noticed a disturbing trend that whenever some aspect of God does not seem as rosy as religious people would like, they simply change direction and talk about how glorious X, Y and Z are.
I contend that we are being punished. To disprove this, you must answer the question:
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Dangerzone
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Indeed we are. We must be. Otherwise original sin would not exist.
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guanophore
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Ok. This is your opinion. Just so long as you know that this is not in agreement with what the Church teaches.
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Dangerzone
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Catechism of the Catholic Church; article 402: All men are implicated in Adam’s sin, as St. Paul affirms: “By one man’s disobedience many (that is, all men) were made sinners”:
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guanophore
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We are all fallen - our nature, created in the image and likeness of God has become wounded. But keep reading that passage of St. Paul. He goes on to say that in Christ, all have been freed from bondage to original sin. When Christ sets us free, we are free indeed. He also asks “why do you return again to slavery?”. The bondage of original sin was broken on the cross, but many do not live in the freedom purchased by Christ. We have the ability, placed in us by the power of the HS, to lead lives without sin.
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tonyrey
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BobCatholic
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Of course we are not responsible.
But we are HELD responsible. You will notice we are not in the Garden of Eden.
Spiritually.
Not temporally. Temporally, we are not yet adopted, and not yet redeemed. Romans 8:23.
I don’t have the strength. And asking for it gets a “no”.Then I suggest you pick up your cross and carry it, so that, for the joy set before you, you can endure until the end. Then you will be with Him for eternity.
not yet. Romans 8:23 makes that abundantly clear. I’m still waiting to be adopted. That’s why I suffer.
Hard to do that when I’m constantly worried about paying bills and making ends meet. Unemployment is a foot stomping on a cross that’s on my back.
My prayers have zero effect, so praying for anyone else is useless. As long as God keeps automatically saying “no” to my prayers, prayer is useless.
What ministry? I tried being an apologist. I enjoyed that, and I thought I brought many souls to Jesus Christ and his Church. But it was not to be. If this was something God wanted me to do, I would have been a smashing success.
I think you did not read what I wrote there.
I am Balaam’s donkey. If you do not know what that is, that’s in Numbers 22.
Balaam’s donkey saw the Angel and was trying to do what God wanted. But he was rewarded with a beating time and time again.
THAT is where I stand now.
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guanophore
Guest
No, we are not being held responsible for the sins of Adam and Eve. This is contrary to the teaching of the Church. We are born in a wounded state, separated from Him because of their choices, but this separation is washed away at baptism.
As long as we live on this earth, we are in a state of “already, but not yet”. So, there are some aspects of our salvation that are already completed, and some that are in process. We have already been adopted as sons and daughters of the MOst High, and we are already redeemed. We expereince some of the aspects of this adoption and redemption now, and we will expereince the fullness at the end of this life. My beef with you is that you seem to deny the aspects of that adoption and redemption that are already in place, that your body is a temple of the HS, for example.
THis is actually a good thing, for when you are weak, He is strong!
Besides, running out of strength may help you to stop kicking against the goads sooner. 
No, you suffer because you exist in a fallen world. Don’t think like a fundamentalist, trying to build doctrine by one bible verse. We have to take all the verses together, and understand what is written in the light of the Church teaching. You are already adopted at baptism. Live it!
Yes, it is very hard, and I am not meaning to imply that it is not. Being unemployted in our culture, especially when you have responsibiliities is extremely difficult. However, it is wrong for Christians to be “constantly worried” about anything. We are to put our energies into seeking first the Kingdom, then everything that we need will be added to us.
It is not right for you to cling to and recite the lies of the devil. You have know way of knowing how effective your prayers are, but it is not up to you to determine. It is your obligation to pray, and you are not absolved of this just because you cannot see the results. Not only that, God never “automaticlly keeps saying no”. This is something the deceiver would like us to believe so that he can crush our hope. I can surely tell you one thing, though, when we embrace the lies of the devil, our prayers will be hindered.
Well, any ministry we have will be limited by our personal practice of holiness. In the state you are now, you are not a good witness to the gospel. Embracing the lies of the devil is not a good way to bring souls to Christ. It is better that God has pulled you away from that, so the damage you do to other souls may be more limited. It is damaging enough that a person claiming to be Catholic comes on a public forum spouting so many lies of the devil.
No because Balaams donkey was content to be who he was. You are not.
Balaam’s donkey spoke the Truth. He did not embrace lies.
Balaams donkey is proof positive that one can speak the Truth in the midst of being beaten. Better get started!
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BobCatholic
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That separation is cured at baptism because it is spiritual. We’re not in heaven yet. We’re not in the Garden of Eden. So we are separated in a temporal sense, being held responsible for the sin of Adam and Eve.
I do not deny the spiritual part of the adoption. It is the temporal part that clearly is not done yet. Romans 8:23 makes that clear, but what evidence screams louder is the fact we are not in the Garden of Eden.
Somehow I have to figure out how to survive until my death without a job. An impossible mission. But this is God’s will. This is his test to me. A test that violates that one verse about not giving me more than I can handle.
I’m not building my belief on one Bible verse alone. I look at my latest experience and see that my temporal needs are not provided for. I notice I’m not in the Garden of Eden. All of that is overwhelming evidence to me. God cares only about the spiritual and not the temporal.
Yes, it is wrong. God is supposed to provide. That Divine Providence thing.
God is supposed to NOT test beyond someone’s ability.
I do pray for the souls in purgatory. Even though I sometimes doubt the St. Gertrude prayers, but I keep going. On top of those I add prayers to obtain employment - those I know are not effective, I know that for sure.
Only when I ask for a job.
But years ago when I was employed, and positive, I thought I was doing good things by being an apologist. Mind you, this was 2003-2005 time period. I haven’t been an apologist since then. The ban from that one Catholic board stung hard and I knew this was not the correct direction. If I was meant to be an apologist, God would have made that ministry a success, because that’s how God rolls.
Of course I’m not content to be who I am! I’m supposed to be an adopted son of God!
I hope to one day be promoted to servant of God and then later to adopted son of God. But I have no idea to what to do.
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guanophore
Guest
There are some aspects of our redemption that are completed, and some that have started, and are not yet fulfilled. But your Body is the temple of the HS NOW, and you are expected to offer it as a living sacrifice to God. We hold the treasure of God’s life in these earthen vessels.
We are not held responsible for the sin of Adam and Eve. This statement is contrary to the teaching of the Church.
It is your choice if you wish to live in the Kingdom, or not. The Kingdom of heaven is within you. You can cooperate with it, and be full of righteousness, peace, and joy, or thwart the will of God for yourself, and be miserable. It is your choice.
You are essentially calling God a liar, which is not a good way to access the grace He has for you. It seems like it is more than you can handle because you are trying to handle it by your ego, instead of placing it on the altar.
It is a mistake to allow your feelings and human perceptions to determine your course. The course of a Christian must be determined by the Truth that God has revealed, and not by our senses. Remember when Peter walked on the water? He looked at the wind and the waves, and began to sink. We cannot focus on the wind and the waves, or we will sink. We need to keep our eyes fixed on Jesus, and look beyond the temporal.
This is a lie from the Pit, and you would do well to jettison it from your thoughts. Embracing lies only makes people miserable.
When we seek first the Kingdom, all else will be added to us.
God has a plan for your life. The more you work to place yourself in His plan, the better you will be able to see it. Repeatedly buying into and giving voice to the devil’s lies that He does not care for you, and that He is ignoring you will not help you see His plan.
So, why not consider changing you course? Take a course of humility instead of demanding of God what you want?
James 4:13-17
13 Come now, you who say, “Today or tomorrow we will go into such and such a town and spend a year there and trade and get gain”; 14 whereas you do not know about tomorrow. What is your life? For you are a mist that appears for a little time and then vanishes. 15 Instead you ought to say, “If the Lord wills, we shall live and we shall do this or that.” 16 As it is, you boast in your arrogance. All such boasting is evil.
What about saying to God, “If the Lord lives, and if I am alive, then…” Trying to insist that God give you what you think you need is arrogance. How do you know that God does not intend a completely different direction for your life? How do you know you are not supposed to study for the Diaconate?
So why are you not thinking and acting like one? It is your choice.
Well, your adoption took place at baptism, but like the Prodigal son, you have wandered off and are now covered with Pig doo doo. It will help to get out of that pig stye and back to the Father’s house.
What do you think about praying the Divine Office? Most laypersons cannot do this because they are hindered by work responsibilities. I think you will find the prayers for Pentecost particularly applicable to your current plight.
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BobCatholic
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And God expected us to treat his Old Testament Temple with respect.
Not only that, HE PROVIDED FOR THAT TEMPLE. Pay attention to that part.
Why, when my body is the Temple of the Holy Spirit, God says “no, I do not want to provide.” ?
Then please give me the location of the Garden of Eden and I’ll sacrifice everything to have me and my family go there. Oh wait, that is forbidden. That’s because…why? Oh yeah, we are not allowed in the Garden of Eden. We are subject to the very same penalty as Adam and Eve. Who imposed that penalty? God’s Holy Word says that God imposed that penalty. We are punished for Adam and Eve’s sin.
I choose to live there. But somehow I got to survive until I die. Without help from God.
I’m not calling God a liar. God has imposed a cross I cannot handle. And because I am Balaam’s donkey, I get beaten by life.
Jesus was present there, and he asked Peter to walk. I’d jump out of the boat and run toward Jesus. I want that hug!!! If I saw I was walking on water, I’d RUN toward that hug.
Why won’t God tell me what it is?
This assumes I know what his plan is.
I am in a position of stewardship. I have a family under my responsibility. God does not seem to understand that, and says “no” to me having a job.
Fine. No job then. I’ll ask God for money in other ways.
If I could not cut the mustard, being an apologist, online, I certainly can’t cut the mustard being a Deacon. I discerned I’d be a horrible deacon.
It is my choice to think and act like one. But if God does not treat me like one but instead treats me like Balaam’s donkey…well, I got the message loud and clear.
I’ll look into that. But I should have a prayer book.What do you think about praying the Divine Office? Most laypersons cannot do this because they are hindered by work responsibilities. I think you will find the prayers for Pentecost particularly applicable to your current plight.
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