age limits on defection?

[1ke]

So…am i to believe that the individual has no say in his or her status. I choose not to be Catholic. Therefore I am not Catholic. Not so?

Not so.

Baptism is an *ontological *reality. Baptism remits original sin and incorporates you into a family-- the Church-- on a spiritual level. It is an indelible mark on your soul.

Just as you are born into a family on a biological level. You can leave that family, have nothing to do with them, you can take legal action to change your name or whatever, but you are *forever *related to them.

Same with baptism. You are a Catholic forever. Nothing you do can change that. You are free to walk away, but you are always welcome to return, go to Confession, and resume the Sacraments.

There isn’t anything you can do that makes you “not” Catholic, just as there is nothing you can do that will make you “not” the child of your parents.

 

[1ke]

Canonically, it no longer has an effect on marriage. There are still a few cases where it is relevant, such as Canon 316:

Canon 316 does not refer to a person who has defected by a formal act. Only canons 1086, 1117, and 1124 use this language.

Canons 171, 194, 316, and 694 refer to defecting from the faith or notoriously defecting from the faith-- which is not by a formal act but rather by the type of thing mentioned above-- joining another denomination, becoming an atheist, etc.

 

[joandarc2008]

I personally like the way Fr Corapi explains this. Baptism and marriage are the two Sacraments we share with other Christian faiths. So guess what if you are baptized - no matter what Church you are baptized in (assuming Trinitarian formula) you are Catholic. Catholic being that large universal, Christian umbrella that all others broke off of.

You just are not partaking in the Sacramental life that is available to you through the rest of the rest of the Sacraments - if you truly don’t believe then it should not bother you what we call you. If it bothers you what we call you then maybe you need to rethink your defection.

 

[Digitonomy]

Canon 316 does not refer to a person who has defected by a formal act. Only canons 1086, 1117, and 1124 use this language.

Canons 171, 194, 316, and 694 refer to defecting from the faith or notoriously defecting from the faith-- which is not by a formal act but rather by the type of thing mentioned above-- joining another denomination, becoming an atheist, etc.

Thanks for the clarification. Nonetheless, it sounds like such an act would still have canonical effect. It’s just that in the vast majority of cases, the act would be redundant, as the same effect had already been reached by other less formal acts.

 

[kozlosap]

As a high school teacher I can tell you without reservation that this is not a particullary shocking question. The only answer is: “Make an appointment with Father and I’m sure he’ll be happy to answer all of your questions!”

 

[Joe_Kelley]

As a high school teacher I can tell you without reservation that this is not a particullary shocking question. The only answer is: “Make an appointment with Father and I’m sure he’ll be happy to answer all of your questions!”

 

[Joe_Kelley]

A Buddhist friend told me of a Christian who approached his guru with a request to become Buddhist. The guru told him that he could, but that he would still be a Christian. The guru explained that when a Christian is baptized a certain spark of truth is installed in him, and it doesn’t matter what he does later - that spark will always be there. That is one of the best explanations of baptism I have seen.

The friend had been raised with no religion. Near death his mother became a Catholic. The guru was insistent that she have a proper Catholic funeral because everyone should be buried in accord with his beliefs. At the funeral the guru, at the celebrant’s invitation, sat near the altar, in his saffron robes, and checked the liturgy line by line to make sure it was being done right.

 

[Just_Lurking]

18 years old.

 

[Aramis]

So…am i to believe that the individual has no say in his or her status. I choose not to be Catholic. Therefore I am not Catholic. Not so?

Nope. You’re a Catholic by virtue of Baptism. You’re also a schismatic, and quite likely also a heretic, and definitely excommunicated, but still a Catholic in a whole heaping mess of grave sin.

 

[joandarc2008]

Nope. You’re a Catholic by virtue of Baptism. You’re also a schismatic, and quite likely also a heretic, and definitely excommunicated, but still a Catholic in a whole heaping mess of grave sin.

Wrong - you are welcomed into the Christian family - that is why when you come into the Catholic Church as an adult and have already been baptized in another Church you do not need to repeat your baptism. It is because we believe in one baptism and that baptism is the same. So yes you have been welcomed into the Christian family which by the way - Catholic is the word that means Universal - baptism leaves that indellible mark regardless of who does it and gives Grace of the Holy Spirit. It is where that child goes from there that begs the question. But all Christian people are united in baptism. What makes Catholics “special” are the other five Sacraments that are not shared.

 

[Agape_Thom]

Nope. You’re a Catholic by virtue of Baptism. You’re also a schismatic, and quite likely also a heretic, and definitely excommunicated, but still a Catholic in a whole heaping mess of grave sin.

Thank you for your kind words.

 

[Aramis]

Thank you for your kind words.

There is no kindness in deceiving you. There is little comfort in the truth here; but truth is better than honeyed lies. The hope is that you repent your errors, and return to the Church.

From the Catholic viewpoint, most protestant sects are seriously heretical. All are schimsmatic. Plus, informal defection is, per CIC Canon 1364, excommunicated.

Can. 1364 §1. Without prejudice to the prescript of ⇒ can. 194, §1, n. 2, an apostate from the faith, a heretic, or a schismatic incurs a latae sententiae excommunication; in addition, a cleric can be punished with the penalties mentioned in ⇒ can. 1336, §1, nn. 1, 2, and 3.

§2. If contumacy of long duration or the gravity of scandal demands it, other penalties can be added, including dismissal from the clerical state.
vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/__P52.HTM

In informal defection, you became a schismatic and/or apostate.

The good news: it’s laetae sententiae, and therefore can be remedied by one’s proper pastor. (Note that for this purpose, only a Catholic pastor counts…)

joandarc2008:

Wrong - you are welcomed into the Christian family - that is why when you come into the Catholic Church as an adult and have already been baptized in another Church you do not need to repeat your baptism. It is because we believe in one baptism and that baptism is the same. So yes you have been welcomed into the Christian family which by the way - Catholic is the word that means Universal - baptism leaves that indellible mark regardless of who does it and gives Grace of the Holy Spirit. It is where that child goes from there that begs the question. But all Christian people are united in baptism. What makes Catholics “special” are the other five Sacraments that are not shared.

As for the Baptism issue, see canon 96:

CHAPTER I.

THE CANONICAL CONDITION OF PHYSICAL PERSONS

Can. 96 By baptism one is incorporated into the Church of Christ and is constituted a person in it with the duties and rights which are proper to Christians in keeping with their condition, insofar as they are in ecclesiastical communion and unless a legitimately issued sanction stands in the way.http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/__PC.HTM

Futher, Thom was a Catholic, and apostasized, making your assertion irrelevant, joandarc2008.

 

[joandarc2008]

There is no kindness in deceiving you. There is little comfort in the truth here; but truth is better than honeyed lies. The hope is that you repent your errors, and return to the Church.

From the Catholic viewpoint, most protestant sects are seriously heretical. All are schimsmatic. Plus, informal defection is, per CIC Canon 1364, excommunicated.

Can. 1364 §1. Without prejudice to the prescript of ⇒ can. 194, §1, n. 2, an apostate from the faith, a heretic, or a schismatic incurs a latae sententiae excommunication; in addition, a cleric can be punished with the penalties mentioned in ⇒ can. 1336, §1, nn. 1, 2, and 3.

§2. If contumacy of long duration or the gravity of scandal demands it, other penalties can be added, including dismissal from the clerical state.
vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/__P52.HTM

In informal defection, you became a schismatic and/or apostate.

The good news: it’s laetae sententiae, and therefore can be remedied by one’s proper pastor. (Note that for this purpose, only a Catholic pastor counts…)

As for the Baptism issue, see canon 96:

CHAPTER I.

THE CANONICAL CONDITION OF PHYSICAL PERSONS

Can. 96 By baptism one is incorporated into the Church of Christ and is constituted a person in it with the duties and rights which are proper to Christians in keeping with their condition, insofar as they are in ecclesiastical communion and unless a legitimately issued sanction stands in the way.http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/__PC.HTM

Futher, Thom was a Catholic, and apostasized, making your assertion irrelevant, joandarc2008.

My assertion was not applying to Thom - Thom had other Sacraments and left. That does love him in a state of mortal sin. But unless Thom believes in the doctrine of the Catholic Church then these words should not bother him at all. If he does then he needs to do some soul searching. My words applied to the infant that is baptized and never receives. So do yours as the very quote that you have posted that have I have now highlighted applies as the Church of Christ is the One True Church established by Christ when he gave Peter the Keys to the Kingdom.

 

[Aramis]

My words applied to the infant that is baptized and never receives. So do yours as the very quote that you have posted that have I have now highlighted applies as the Church of Christ is the One True Church established by Christ when he gave Peter the Keys to the Kingdom.

All that is required to be Catholic is having been baptized a catholic, or having a valid baptism followed by having professed the faith. Completing the other sacraments of initiation is important. And for converts, it’s the default norm. But it is NOT what makes one Catholic. And once Catholic, forever Catholic.

Your misreading the text, by the way.

That “baptized infant” is held to the duties proper to a person of their age. They may not receive certain sacraments, since those require canonical condition beyond being simply a member of the church. The priveledges they have could be impeded, but not their rights. (Go read the chapter on delicts and punishments.)

 

[joandarc2008]

All that is required to be Catholic is having been baptized a catholic, or having a valid baptism followed by having professed the faith. Completing the other sacraments of initiation is important. And for converts, it’s the default norm. But it is NOT what makes one Catholic. And once Catholic, forever Catholic.

Your misreading the text, by the way.

That “baptized infant” is held to the duties proper to a person of their age. They may not receive certain sacraments, since those require canonical condition beyond being simply a member of the church. The priveledges they have could be impeded, but not their rights. (Go read the chapter on delicts and punishments.)

I never said they were welcomed to received the Sacraments - yes they need more catechesis, etc unless they are in danger of death in which case if they show desire they WILL receive them. However as listed above they are still members of the ecclesiastical community.

 

[Joe_Kelley]

There is no kindness in deceiving you. There is little comfort in the truth here; but truth is better than honeyed lies. . . .

One might say that the road to hell is paved with kind but misleading words.

 

[Aramis]

As a comparison note: A minor has the right to change church of enrollment at 14, per the CCEO.

 

[MarianD]

I have to ask. Are you attempting to convert a young Catholic to your Religion???

How can a convert to Lutheranism from Catholicism be switching religions? That’s like saying Massachusetts and Maine are in different countries.

 

[joandarc2008]

How can a convert to Lutheranism from Catholicism be switching religions? That’s like saying Massachusetts and Maine are in different countries.

MarianD - I see that you are in the process of coming in to the Catholic Church so I will explain a couple of things and Lutheranteach please jump in here if I say anything that is untrue I am not trying to start a battle of Faiths just trying to answer a question for a candidate/catuchumen.

1. The Lutheran Church was started and modeled after the teachings of Martin Luther’s thesis - it is the one first of the schismatic Churches in the Protestant Reformation - by very nature one that leaves the Catholic Church for the Lutheran Church becomes schismatic.
2. The Lutheran Church is not in Communion with the Catholic Church - while they do believe in Transubstantiation a Catholic cannot approach the Lutheran Church for Eucharist
3. Lutherans are not allowed to approach the Catholic Church for Eucharist

(I believe 2 and 3 can be dispensed with upon emergency such as unavailability of a Church or clergy - I am not completely sure)

1. Lutherans believe in female ordination
2. Some Lutheran Churches have started recognizing gay marriage
3. There is no Apostolic Succession for their priests
4. They do not believe in the Sacrament of Reconcilliation
5. They allow divorce and remarriage without an investigation of validity
6. They allow contraception
7. and so on…

 

[Digitonomy]

MarianD - I see that you are in the process of coming in to the Catholic Church so I will explain a couple of things…

Marian’s point was that Lutheranteach is a Christian, and thus it’s more accurate to say he is the same religion, but a different denomination (which differs from ours in the various ways that you listed).