age limits on defection?

[joandarc2008]

Marian’s point was that Lutheranteach is a Christian, and thus it’s more accurate to say he is the same religion, but a different denomination (which differs from ours in the various ways that you listed).

I can understand that - but in the case of a baptized child who has received Eucharist it would be dangerous for that child to defect as that child would be in a state of mortal sin by doing so which is what I was trying to explain by highlighting the differences -

However, I am NOT saying that was Lutheranteach’s intent. This is the good Lutheranteach who is teaching comparative religion and got stuck in a hard situation. IF it had been the other Lutheranteach on these forums this would probably be a whole different conversation.

 

[Aramis]

Marian’s point was that Lutheranteach is a Christian, and thus it’s more accurate to say he is the same religion, but a different denomination (which differs from ours in the various ways that you listed).

Denominalationism is heresy.

Lutherans, for better or worse, have no valid orders, and thus no valid sacraments except baptism, and are not a denomination of the Church. They are a denomination of an ecclesial community outside the church.

To borrow the other poster’s state metaphor, it’s more like Ontario and Michigan… really close, but different countries.

 

[1ke]

How can a convert to Lutheranism from Catholicism be switching religions? That’s like saying Massachusetts and Maine are in different countries.

Marian,

A formal defection constitutes either heresy, schism, or apostacy. If a Catholic defects to another Christan denomination they are guilty of either heresy or schism depending upon which particular Church or ecclesial community they defect to.

If they defect to a non-Christian religion or profess atheism or agnosticism, then they are guilty of apostacy.

Lutheranism is NOT the same as Catholicism, although both hold to Trinitarian beliefs. A Catholic who rejected the Catholic Church and embraced Lutheran teaching would be commiting heresy if they had the requisite knowledge and intent.

It is a serious thing.

 

[Like]

How can a convert to Lutheranism from Catholicism be switching religions? That’s like saying Massachusetts and Maine are in different countries.

I see other Catholics have answered your question, and quite well at that.

Catholicism & Lutheranism are both Christian, however, Catholics believe Jesus founded the one true Catholic Church, whereas man (Martin Luther) Founded the Lutheran Church.

I meant no offense, just defending the Catholic Church.

Question for the other posters in this thread?
There are 2 Lutheranteach?

 

[joandarc2008]

Question for the other posters in this thread?
There are 2 Lutheranteach?

Yes and the other one is very anti-Catholic!

 

[MarianD]

I do understand the differences between the two denominations.

I’m saying that the religion is Christianity. The Church (or denomination) is either Catholic or Lutheran. Different beliefs, one is invalid, but they are both Christian because they both believe Jesus is Lord, God, and Savior.

 

[Corki]

I do understand the differences between the two denominations.

I’m saying that the religion is Christianity. The Church (or denomination) is either Catholic or Lutheran. Different beliefs, one is invalid, but they are both Christian because they both believe Jesus is Lord, God, and Savior.

Technically, the Catholic Church is not a denomination.

You are correct that if one defects from the Catholic Church and joins the Lutheran eccleastical community, one commits the sin of heresy but does not change religions.

 

[kenofken]

So…am i to believe that the individual has no say in his or her status. I choose not to be Catholic. Therefore I am not Catholic. Not so?

The rest of us in your shoes also see what we consider to be an absurdity in that. Basically what the Church holds is that once you’re baptized, you’re in for eternity. You don’t ever have had to made an informed conscious choice to join, or believe in anything the Church believes. They gotcha, so they say. Now this has obvious political and economic advantages for the Church, but I also believe it has it’s downsides in the form of cafeteria Catholicism, Catholic in Name Only etc.

That said, you can assert your departure from the church on Earth through the defection process. Basically you send a letter to the canonical services person in your diocese and make a definitive statement that you have effectively left through apostasy and that you’re making the choice freely, understand the consequences etc. Within a couple of weeks, they make that notation on your baptism record and send you a polite form letter indicating it has been done. I did this in Chicago a little over a year ago.

The latest Motu Proprio has thrown it all into some confusion. I hear that in Ireland, where the process became rather popular, the bishops are putting defections on hold because of confusion over whether the latest change truly does away with defection or merely removes the one obvious canonical consequence of it. Ultimately, defection is done in your mind and heart and you can’t get too hung up on what degree of official recognition they choose to give it. I figured I did my part in good faith. I let them know where I stood and that they no longer speak in my name, and conversely, that I would not carry on as a heretic passing myself off as a Catholic.

The age question is an interesting one. Age 18 is probably a reasonable assumption, but I don’t know. My gut would be to suggest that whatever age is set for confirmation these days ought to serve as well for defection. If confirmation is really supposed to involve adult(ish) reasoning and informed choice, you ought to be able to opt out as well as in.

Bear in mind that I do not advise anyone either way on the issue. It’s a matter of one’s personal conscience.

 

[Aramis]

The age question is an interesting one. Age 18 is probably a reasonable assumption, but I don’t know. My gut would be to suggest that whatever age is set for confirmation these days ought to serve as well for defection. If confirmation is really supposed to involve adult(ish) reasoning and informed choice, you ought to be able to opt out as well as in.

Since one can change Church Sui Iuris of Canonical Enrollment by one’s own choice at 14 (per the CCEO) or at 14 return to the enrollment of one’s birth if one’s parents changed prior to age 14, it’s logical that it would be the same decision age. At least for those in the Eastern Churches.

 

[Lutheranteach]

All that is required to be Catholic is having been baptized a catholic, or having a valid baptism followed by having professed the faith. Completing the other sacraments of initiation is important. And for converts, it’s the default norm. But it is NOT what makes one Catholic. And once Catholic, forever Catholic.

Your misreading the text, by the way.

That “baptized infant” is held to the duties proper to a person of their age. They may not receive certain sacraments, since those require canonical condition beyond being simply a member of the church. The priveledges they have could be impeded, but not their rights. (Go read the chapter on delicts and punishments.)

And a profession of faith is merely the Nicene or Apostles Creed? Correct? Which is used in some, if not many, protestant churches so I don’t see how this is really a profession of one specific faith.

 

[Lutheranteach]

Technically, the Catholic Church is not a denomination.

You are correct that if one defects from the Catholic Church and joins the Lutheran eccleastical community, one commits the sin of heresy but does not change religions.

How about the Catholic that knows the Church’s position on taking communion in other places but does so from time to time. Has an invalid marriage with no intention or interest in regularizing it but still takes communion in the Catholic Church, had her child baptized in a Lutheran Church with one Lutheran and one Catholic sponsor, uses ABC, thinks female clergy would be a good idea, believes a celibate clergy is ridiculous and has no problem with gay marriage. What do we do with that person?

 

[1ke]

And a profession of faith is merely the Nicene or Apostles Creed? Correct? Which is used in some, if not many, protestant churches so I don’t see how this is really a profession of one specific faith.

No, it’s not the Nicene Creed. It is an actual statement they make regarding believing all the Catholic Church teaches.

The Rite of Reception of Baptized Christians Into Full Communion of the Catholic Church can be done during Mass (the norm) or outside the Mass (if necessary). During Mass, the Liturgy of the Word proceeds as normal.

Then the candidate is called forward and the priest says:

N., of your own free will you have asked to be received into the full communion of the Catholic Church. You have made your decision after careful thought under the guidance of the Holy Spirit. I now invite you to come forward with your sponsor and in the presence of this community to profess the Catholic faith. In this faith you will be one with us for the first time at the eucharistic table of the Lord Jesus, the sign of the Church’s unity.

The candidate then comes forward with their sponsor and the entire congregation recites the Nicene Creed.

After the Nicene Creed, the candidate makes their profession of faith:

I believe and profess all that the holy Catholic Church believes, teahces, and proclaims to be revealed by God.

After that, the celebrant lays his hands on the candidate and says:

N., the Lord recieves you into the Catholic Church. His loving kindness has led you here, so that in the unity of the Holy Spirit you may have full communion with us in the fiath you have professed in the presence of his family.

The candidate is now received fully into the Catholic Church.

After that, the candidate is confirmed and then the Mass proceeds as usual. The candidate would receive the Eucharist for the first time.

 

[joandarc2008]

How about the Catholic that knows the Church’s position on taking communion in other places but does so from time to time. Has an invalid marriage with no intention or interest in regularizing it but still takes communion in the Catholic Church, had her child baptized in a Lutheran Church with one Lutheran and one Catholic sponsor, uses ABC, thinks female clergy would be a good idea, believes a celibate clergy is ridiculous and has no problem with gay marriage. What do we do with that person?

That is in an interesting question - I believe we cal them Cafeteria Catholics. And I believe we have been stuck with them pretty much. We pray for their conversion - we educate them. We discuss apologetics with them and in severe actions hopefully they are denied Eucharist through self-excommunication such as the cases of those that insist on having public relationships with Planned Parenthood, etc.

 

[1ke]

The rest of us in your shoes also see what we consider to be an absurdity in that. Basically what the Church holds is that once you’re baptized, you’re in for eternity. You don’t ever have had to made an informed conscious choice to join, or believe in anything the Church believes. They gotcha, so they say. Now this has obvious political and economic advantages for the Church, but I also believe it has it’s downsides in the form of cafeteria Catholicism, Catholic in Name Only etc.

The above statements reflect a misunderstanding of what Baptism is and more importantly what it DOES.

The age question is an interesting one. Age 18 is probably a reasonable assumption, but I don’t know. My gut would be to suggest that whatever age is set for confirmation these days ought to serve as well for defection. If confirmation is really supposed to involve adult(ish) reasoning and informed choice, you ought to be able to opt out as well as in.

Church law does not set an age. And, defect cannot be formal unless the bishop *receives *the defection. It is in his discretion whether or not the person can make an informed decision and whether or not to accept the defection and note it in the sacramental records.

And of course, a person who defects, formally or not, can return via the Sacrament of Reconciliation.

 

[1ke]

That is in an interesting question - I believe we cal them Cafeteria Catholics. And I believe we have been stuck with them pretty much. We pray for their conversion - we educate them. We discuss apologetics with them and in severe actions hopefully they are denied Eucharist through self-excommunication such as the cases of those that insist on having public relationships with Planned Parenthood, etc.

He is referring to his wife.

 

[joandarc2008]

He is referring to his wife.

Oh, I am most sorry. I did not know.

 

[1ke]

Oh, I am most sorry. I did not know.

You don’t have anything to apologize for. You are right, we need to pray for their conversion.

Not to put words in LT’s mouth, but I think he gets frustrated with the cafeteria attitude. Your “yes” should mean “yes” and your “no” should mean “no” whether you are Catholic, Lutheran, Jewish, or whatever.

 

[1ke]

How about the Catholic that knows the Church’s position on taking communion in other places but does so from time to time. Has an invalid marriage with no intention or interest in regularizing it but still takes communion in the Catholic Church, had her child baptized in a Lutheran Church with one Lutheran and one Catholic sponsor, uses ABC, thinks female clergy would be a good idea, believes a celibate clergy is ridiculous and has no problem with gay marriage. What do we do with that person?

If I said “burn at the stake” you would know I was kidding, right?

 

[joandarc2008]

You don’t have anything to apologize for. You are right, we need to pray for their conversion.

Not to put words in LT’s mouth, but I think he gets frustrated with the cafeteria attitude. Your “yes” should mean “yes” and your “no” should mean “no” whether you are Catholic, Lutheran, Jewish, or whatever.

LT and everyone else - I have a confession to make - I was once a Cafeteria Catholic - not on the big things such as abortion but the little things - it was through an open mind and others teaching me the whys and wherefores that I learned why the Church believed and I came to believe and that house of cards fell very quickly.

 

[kenofken]

That is in an interesting question - I believe we cal them Cafeteria Catholics. And I believe we have been stuck with them pretty much. We pray for their conversion - we educate them. We discuss apologetics with them and in severe actions hopefully they are denied Eucharist through self-excommunication such as the cases of those that insist on having public relationships with Planned Parenthood, etc.

These folks are the other side of the coin where defection is concerned, and a reason why the church really ought to find a way to regularize a meaningful defection process. You shouldn’t have to be stuck with them, nor them with you.