Agnostic versus Atheist

[CHRISTINE77]

We call to who or whatever we think might help us. One’s mother, God, providence, Odin,

But you didn’t call out to anything? Maybe you didn’t really think that was the end for you?

 

[PRmerger]

But you didn’t call out to anything? Maybe you didn’t really think that was the end for you?

And even if he didn’t, it proves nothing.

And I propose that given a few minutes’ contemplation, the cry to the heavens would be forthcoming.

 

[LethalMouse]

But you didn’t call out to anything? Maybe you didn’t really think that was the end for you?

He was in charge… I am reminded of a time me and another man were doing the “you go first” in a situation. He stated “I wish a girl was here we wouldn’t be scared”

My intital reaction was why he would use a girl as a protector, but he pointed out we would be arguing over who goes first in reverse. See when we have a charge, we must no longer have our concerns in the same manner.

If I walk alone in the woods I am prepared to jump and run from a snake, if I walk with my son I am prepared to pick him up and place my body in the path of a strike.

In this case he held his wife. The element of protection does not form the same kind of fear as “I am going to die” so much so as acting in a way to do your best to save the other.

 

[Mike_from_NJ]

We call to who or whatever we think might help us. One’s mother, God, providence, Odin,

I completely agree that people may or may not call out to whomever, and for many (no matter our religion or lack thereof) we’ll never know what we’ll do until such a situation arises.

No, my comment was in response to PR’s idea that there is no way, shape, or form that a person could remain an atheist in a dire time especially if that time is long enough to allow for contemplation. Since that response was made null by literally 10 seconds of research I felt it important to post.

 

[LethalMouse]

I completely agree that people may or may not call out to whomever, and for many (no matter our religion or lack thereof) we’ll never know what we’ll do until such a situation arises.

No, my comment was in response to PR’s idea that there is no way, shape, or form that a person could remain an atheist in a dire time especially if that time is long enough to allow for contemplation. Since that response was made null by literally 10 seconds of research I felt it important to post.

From a conjecture and naturally less provable point of view. If God, then theologically it is possible to stay an atheist. Just what happens after desth might not be pleasant.

 

[PRmerger]

From a conjecture and naturally less provable point of view. If God, then theologically it is possible to stay an atheist. Just what happens after desth might not be pleasant.

The claim that there are indeed atheists in foxholes needs to have some evidence to back it up.

Namely, 4 independent sources which document that this person was 1) an atheist
2) was in a foxhole scenario 3) remained an atheist.

Until this is provided I remain… an atheist on this position.

In fact, I find it supremely amusing and ironic that folks who are atheists are offering a position without providing…evidence for their position.

 

[LethalMouse]

The claim that there are no atheists in foxholes needs to have some evidence to back it up.

Namely, 4 independent sources which document that this person was 1) an atheist
2) was in a foxhole scenario 3) remained an atheist.

Until this is provided I remain… an atheist on this position.

In fact, I find it supremely amusing and ironic that folks who are atheists are offering a position without providing…evidence for their position.

I was actually saying that theology essentially agrees with you even without the same reason.

From a theological standpoint there can be easily an atheist in a foxhole. He would just essentially constitute a form of evil.

 

[Charlemagne_III]

Atheists will probably be further away from accepting any God concept as true because their worldview has more incompatibilities with the concept.

Their worldview, I suspect, is often as not conditioned by their disappointment with their fathers.

 

[AgnosticBoy]

How would you design this survey?

My comment was not really about the design of a survey but rather the source that it’s coming from. A lot of polls or surveys that I’ve read have been done by Christian sites or Atheist sites, sites which likely have a vested interest in making their side look good. I’d accept something from Gallup or Pew poll if they also survey why atheists don’t believe or lack belief in God.

Interesting…

So you are an American, yes?
Your governor is your leader?

Do you think it would be correct for me to conclude that what you believe is what your governor believes?

I’m an American. The answer to your 2nd and 3rd question would depend on which leader you’re referring to. There can be different leaders for different things, and a leader (or leading or popular thinker) for a belief or position, such as atheism, would be the relevant leader to associate to the beliefs of the general population of atheists. Of course, not all atheists follow everything of Dawkins, Michael Shermer, Harris, etc, but inevitably many do and on forums they are the face of atheism… so much so that I and many others reject the atheist label.

 

[PRmerger]

My comment was not really about the design of a survey but rather the source that it’s coming from. A lot of polls or surveys that I’ve read have been done by Christian sites or Atheist sites, sites which likely have a vested interest in making their side look good. I’d accept something from Gallup or Pew poll if they also survey why atheists don’t believe or lack belief in God.

Ok. But I thought you were saying that experience suffices in the absence of polls or surveys.

Now you’re saying that these surveys do actually exist?

 

[AgnosticBoy]

With respect to the existence of God, what material difference is there between being an agnostic and being an atheist?

Your thoughts?

I appreciate that you’re considering or at least asking about the difference between an atheist and an agnostic. Too many people try to lump the two labels together and I actually find it kind of offensive.

So many atheists are so dead set against Christianity that it clouds their reason, like for example, when it comes to Jesus’ existence. It was so hard getting many atheists to believe that Jesus was a historical figure but with some embellishments to make him legendary, just like Julius Caesar. It took an agnostic and scholar like Bart Ehrman and others to finally show that there’s some fact to Jesus’ existence.

 

[PRmerger]

I’m an American. The answer to your 2nd and 3rd question would depend on which leader you’re referring to.

I am referring to your governor.

Would it be correct for me to conclude that you believe A, B and C, since that is what your leader believes?

Are these not your words?

You can just find out what their leader believes and what he or she is feeding his followers

 

[PRmerger]

So many atheists are so dead set against Christianity that it clouds their reason, like for example, when it comes to Jesus’ existence. It was so hard getting many atheists to believe that Jesus was a historical figure but with some embellishments to make him legendary, just like Julius Caesar. It took an agnostic and scholar like Bart Ehrman and others to finally show that there’s some fact to Jesus’ existence.

Actually, there is hardly an educated historian, atheist, secular or religious, who denies that the historical Jesus existed.

Richard Carrier is probably only 1 of, perhaps, 5 academics who has declared that the historical man named Jesus of Nazareth never existed.

Every other educated person, in all of academia, considers it absurd to deny his existence.

And it’s not due to Bart Ehrman.

It’s due to scholarship and intellectual integrity.

(NB: No accusations are being thrown at Richard Carrier of abuse of intellectual integrity. Only that it’s hardly a matter of academic discussion whether Jesus of Nazareth existed. That has already been established and accepted by academia.)

 

[Bradski]

The claim that there are indeed atheists in foxholes needs to have some evidence to back it up.

Namely, 4 independent sources which document that this person was 1) an atheist
2) was in a foxhole scenario 3) remained an atheist.

Until this is provided I remain… an atheist on this position.

In fact, I find it supremely amusing and ironic that folks who are atheists are offering a position without providing…evidence for their position.

Just read the stories of the men and women in that link. There are Afghan rangèrs, WWII vets, F16 pilots, those with tours in Vietnam.

Is it your contention that there are literally no real atheists?

 

[PRmerger]

Just read the stories of the men and women in that link. There are Afghan rangèrs, WWII vets, F16 pilots, those with tours in Vietnam.

Is it your contention that there are literally no real atheists?

I would like 4 independent manuscripts of each of these atheists which document evidence for

1. the individual’s actual atheism. How do we know these folks actually were atheists at the time of the incident? Maybe they’re just saying so now, after the fact.
2. the scenario in question actually occurred as documented. I’d like independent corroboration for this
3. the thought process of these individuals, and documentation that they did, indeed, not cry out to Yahweh, Allah, Jesus, the Trinity

Do you see any problem with my demands for proof?

 

[Bradski]

I would like 4 independent manuscripts of each of these atheists which document evidence for

1. the individual’s actual atheism. How do we know these folks actually were atheists at the time of the incident? Maybe they’re just saying so now, after the fact.
2. the scenario in question actually occurred as documented. I’d like independent corroboration for this
3. the thought process of these individuals, and documentation that they did, indeed, not cry out to Yahweh, Allah, Jesus, the Trinity

Do you see any problem with my demands for proof?

I’m not really interested whether you believe the stories that are in that link. I’m more interested in why you want the proof.

Again I will ask: is it your contention that there are no genuine atheists?

 

[Bradski]

And by the way, there have been countless people in battle situations and times of great stress that have never called out to any Christian deity.

When we talk atheism we talk of a lack of a belief in all gods. Not just yours.

 

[PRmerger]

I’m not really interested whether you believe the stories that are in that link.

Of course you want me to believe the stories in the link.

I’m more interested in why you want the proof.

2 reasons:

1. I’m skeptical by nature
2. I take great enjoyment in playing the atheist to atheists.

And let’s be clear: I am asking nothing more and nothing less than what Christians have been asked to provide as apologia for our beliefs.

Again I will ask: is it your contention that there are no genuine atheists?

I’m agnostic on this.

Now, do you have any manuscripts, articles, videos, letters from these individuals documenting their atheism, as well as corroboration from others that this is true?

Also, how can I believe that they really didn’t call out to God without some proof for this?

 

[PRmerger]

And by the way, there have been countless people in battle situations and times of great stress that have never called out to any Christian deity.

When we talk atheism we talk of a lack of a belief in all gods. Not just yours.

Whenever we talk atheism here we are talking about the God of the Philosophers.

Not the Christian God.

And please give me some evidence so I can examine whether your claim that “they have never called out” to God is true.

Otherwise, you simply have believed something you were told.

And isn’t that antithetical to you?

 

[Bradski]

Whenever we talk atheism here we are talking about the God of the Philosophers.

Not the Christian God.

And please give me some evidence so I can examine whether your claim that “they have never called out” to God is true.

Otherwise, you simply have believed something you were told.

And isn’t that antithetical to you?

If I read that someone was in a desperate situation and didn’t find him or herself calling out to the God of their choice, then I have no reason to doubt whatbthey are saying.

You won’t find many people that are more sceptical than I am, but there has to be a reason for the scepticism. I don’t simply distrust everything. So if someone says they didin’t call for divine help, then that is acceptable to me unless a think that they have a reason for lying.

I would have to think that I was the only atheist alive and everyone else was just kidding themselves.