Agnus Dei

[Ruth_Catherine]

I was wondering, I don’t have latin mass around here but have been watching and learning different things from this site and others. I was watching a video the other day and it looked like everyone kneeled during the Agnus Dei. At the latin mass does everyone kneel at the Agnus Dei and does anyone know why it changed?

 

[Warrenton]

Yes, in North America it was the custom to kneel during tha Agnus Dei in the EF.

The altar boy rings the sanctus bells, which is our que to kneel. We remain kneeling through communion and most of the concluding prayers. Then the last gospel is read (always St John 1:1), we kneel again for concluding prayers if it is a low mass.

Regarding why we kneel, a lot of that is mostly custom. How long and when people knelt often depended on what the local church looked like - many old churches did not have kneelers, in fact, did not (or still don’t) even have pews). Kneeling on a stone floor is not practical for many people, especially the very old or very young. IN Russian churches, you will notice the people standing.

The Agnus Dei in the EF is sort of like a mini benediction: the priest has finished the consecration, and is revealing, and breaking, the sacrificed host: “Behold the Lamb of God” As a practical matter from the viewpoint from the pews, the Agnus Dei in the EF appears to serve the “dramatic” purpose that the MInor Elevation does in the OF. Mind, the EF has the Minor Elevation, but it is much less noticeable from the pews.

I am sure that others wil have a more accurate description of what and why the positions are different in the two forms. THis post is just to give you an idea of how it appears when you observe it.

Cheers!

 

[giuseppeTO]

During a Missa Cantata, we stand during the Pater Noster. At the point the Agnus Dei is sung by the schola or choir, there are two alternate customs. One is that all kneel at the Agnus Dei while in some churches it is customary to stand until the schola finishes chanting the Agnus Dei.

In SSPX Chapels, I have seen it done both ways in different localities.

 

[corsair]

At an EF Mass I have always knelt at the Agnus Dei. In fact, I always kneel at the OF Mass.

The OF Mass is much looser and varies from Diocese to Diocese. The EF is much more regulated by Rubrics.

As to why it was changed… ???, because they did?

 

[Joe_Kelley]

My wife is a choir director. I see that my old missal has margin notes on standing, kneeling etc for them [1960’s]. According to my notes we stood for the Amen at the end of the Canon [Eucharistic Prayer] and remained standing until the Domini non sum dignus [Lord I am not worthy]. So we would have been standing for the Agnus Dei.

Of course this was for the choir, which would stand to sing these, but I think we all stood for that period.

 

[MarkThompson]

The OF Mass is much looser and varies from Diocese to Diocese. The EF is much more regulated by Rubrics.

No, posture for the congregation is entirely unregulated by the rubrics of the EF. Nowadays most people just do whatever it says in those little red booklets and assume that it’s “official,” but this loses sight of the fact that historically there was a wide range of praxis. Just look at GiuseppeTO’s comment above about how practices vary even from one SSPX chapel to another.

 

[Denise1957]

No, posture for the congregation is entirely unregulated by the rubrics of the EF. Nowadays most people just do whatever it says in those little red booklets and assume that it’s “official,” but this loses sight of the fact that historically there was a wide range of praxis. Just look at GiuseppeTO’s comment above about how practices vary even from one SSPX chapel to another.

Have you ever attended an EF Mass where the congregation stood during the Agnus Dei?

 

[YoungTradCath]

There is absolutely no regulation on laity’s posture in the Extraordinary Form.

In fact, at one church in which I attended mass, they had this very odd little practice by which they would quickly kneel on the left knee, then the right, then the left two more times, and then stand up again. I found that very odd, and I’ve never seen it anywhere else.

 

[MarkThompson]

Have you ever attended an EF Mass where the congregation stood during the Agnus Dei?

No, but I have no doubt that if you went around in 1911 (rather than 2011) and attended Masses all over, you would have seen some curious things. In any event, when there is uniformity on some postural issue in the EF, it is certainly not “[t]he EF is much more regulated by Rubrics.”

 

[Joe_Kelley]

In Vatican I the question of the posture of the laity at mass came up. One cardinal was quoted to have quipped: “On their knees with their collection envelope in one hand and their rosary in the other.”

 

[zab]

There is absolutely no regulation on laity’s posture in the Extraordinary Form.

In fact, at one church in which I attended mass, they had this very odd little practice by which they would quickly kneel on the left knee, then the right, then the left two more times, and then stand up again. I found that very odd, and I’ve never seen it anywhere else.

That reminds me of when I met my husband’s family and we prayed the family rosary. All 18 of them knelt on one knee. I assumed it was because his dad and mom had sore knees so they knelt on one and everyone copied their posture.

 

[giuseppeTO]

No, but I have no doubt that if you went around in 1911 (rather than 2011) and attended Masses all over, you would have seen some curious things. In any event, when there is uniformity on some postural issue in the EF, it is certainly not “[t]he EF is much more regulated by Rubrics.”

Mark is right. Rubrics primary pertain to the Priest. Even the practices of how to serve Low or High Mass vary widely by custom. There are a couple of published standards but there is never an obligation to follow any particular way to either serve a Mass or assist at Mass as a congregant.

I remember in the early 60’s as we moved from one parish in Buffalo to another, the practices for how we served at Mass were different in many (small) ways. We had a summer home in Canada and when we went to Mass on Sundays in Canada, the practices for the congregation were also slightly different.

 

[Warrenton]

No, but I have no doubt that if you went around in 1911 (rather than 2011) and attended Masses all over, you would have seen some curious things.

That is an interesting point. I had an old family missal, probably it was from the 1940s or 1950s, and it specifically said that there is no hard and fast rule to when to stand/kneel, and went on to describe the general practice in the US.

 

[ProVobis]

Have you ever attended an EF Mass where the congregation stood during the Agnus Dei?

There is the priest reciting the Agnus Dei which takes all of about 15 seconds at the most. At High Masses, many get confused after the Commixtio (“Fraction”) and end up standing until after the Agnus Dei. (Maybe they expect a handshake?) If there is a choir singing the Agnus Dei I have never seen anyone standing for the whole three “verses.”

 

[MarkThompson]

That is an interesting point. I had an old family missal, probably it was from the 1940s or 1950s, and it specifically said that there is no hard and fast rule to when to stand/kneel, and went on to describe the general practice in the US.

Indeed. If anything, the increased standardization of EF practices in modern times, along with the expectation that there is a “right way” to be found in a book (or on a website somewhere) and the belief that “in olden times you could walk into any Mass anywhere and know exactly what to do, it was truly universal and always the same” reflects a certain “Novus Ordoization” of the old rite, in keeping with paragraph 31 of Sacrosanctum Concilium. There, the Council directed: “The revision of the liturgical books must carefully attend to the provision of rubrics also for the people’s parts.” Now, people are desperate to have corresponding “rubrics” written out for them for the traditional Mass too.

 

[Joe_Kelley]

I think most people watched the altar boys and did whatever they did; especially at High Mass. This offered certain opportunities, since the priest was back to and didn’t see what the altar boys did.

In larger parishes there were often a dozen or more altar boys in choir like arrangement [on the sides facing each other] in addition to the two who were serving. My father told of seeing, at one mass, the altar boys nodding to each other. Then they all quietly genuflected. Of course the congregation did the same with a loud crash. The priest turned around to see what was happening. All he saw was a dozen angelic altar boys and a confused congregation. He shook his head and went on with the mass.

 

[ProVobis]

I think most people watched the altar boys and did whatever they did; especially at High Mass.

Not a bad idea, except the altar boys don’t sit during Mass.

Our priest now just arm gestures to indicate whether he wants people to kneel or stand or sit. Not all EF priests do this, however. In fact, he’s the only one I know who does this.

 

[Warrenton]

Indeed. If anything, the increased standardization of EF …" reflects a certain “Novus Ordoization” of the old rite

I agree with you. We’ve discussed it many times, and so you know my strong support and preference for the EF. That said, the “regularity” that people recall about the old mass seems often to be a conflation of a couple of ideas. First, the “tone” of the mass was regular, especially the low masses, which were the overwhelming majority of masses. High mass in the parish my family belonged to occurred only a few times a year, and was a big event.

Second, the mental attitude of the worshipper was “regular”. Since little was demanded, other than presence, mass was accompanied by a steadiness of approach, much in the way someone has a steadiness over any routine tasks. The people who prayed the rosary during mass probably almost always prayed it, the people who prayed for the dead, or for their children, probably always prayed for them, and so on. The ability to “get in a groove” is probably what created the strongest impression of “regularity.” If someone did not know whether to stand or kneel, it did not really matter back then.

So, yes, you raise a good point in observing that V2 has had a profound impact even on traditionalist practice. In a way, I’m probably a good example. My great grandfather lived and died in the Church. He accepted its teachings as readily as he accepted the laws of supply and demand, the government’s decision to go to war, and the facts that horses must be well fed and groomed if they are to pull heavy wagons. As far as I know, he never set foot in a church of any other denomination. This forum, however, would have perplexed him, and he would have said to me,“If you want to discuss religion, be a priest.”

It will be a long, long time before we, or even the SSPX, have a Church full of men like that again.