Ahead of inmate’s execution, Florida Catholic bishops seek clemency

[irenaeus1]

An argument often made is Pope John Paul II’s 1995 encyclical, The Gospel of Life (Evangelium Vitae), where he finds that the only time executions can be justified is when they are required “to defend society” and that “as a result of steady improvements… in the penal system that such cases are very rare if not practically non existent.” The problem with this statement is that the condition of penal systems of various governments is a matter of prudential judgment and not a matter of doctrine. JPII’s position as well as many bishops is now based on the state of the corrections system - a position neither biblical nor theological. The pope could very well be in error on this, especially since this was an encyclical to the whole world; i.e., which penal systems in the world have sufficiently improved? The US’s? Russia’s? Spain’s? Swaziland’s? an indigenous tribe’s who resides in an isolated jungle in Africa?. How does one know when a government’s penal system has sufficiently improved so as to not regard capital punishment as a legitimate means? If anything, one would think that it should be the governments with less developed penal systems who should not have recourse to the death penalty for fear of abuse and/or mistakes. Secondly, when the Catechism of the Catholic Church was edited to include this statement from the pope’s encyclical, it is clear that it does not flow from what is stated regarding the purpose of punishment in the immediately preceding paragraphs… as Ender has already noted, retributive justice has been removed from what was previously in the context of capital punishment in the 1994 edition of the catechism.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

DECLARATION OF THE HOLY SEE
TO THE FIRST WORLD CONGRESS
ON THE DEATH PENALTY

The Holy See has consistently sought the abolition of the death penalty and his Holiness Pope John Paul II has personally and indiscriminately appealed on numerous occasions in order that such sentences should be commuted to a lesser punishment, which may offer time and incentive for the reform of the guilty, hope to the innocent and safeguard the well-being of civil society itself and of those individuals who through no choice of theirs have become deeply involved in the fate of those condemmed to death.

ADDRESS OF HIS HOLINESS BENEDICT XVI
TO HIS EXCELLENCY
Mr. HÉCTOR FEDERICO LING ALTAMIRANO,
NEW AMBASSADOR OF MEXICO
TO THE HOLY SEE

One can never sufficiently insist that the right to life must be recognized in its full breadth. In fact every person deserves respect and solidarity from the moment of his conception to his natural death. This noble cause, in which many men and women are courageously involved, must also be supported by the civil authorities in the promotion of just laws and effective public policies that take into account the very great value that every human being possesses at every moment of his life. In this regard, I would like to acknowledge joyfully the initiative of Mexico which, in 2005, eliminated capital punishment from its legislation, as well as the recent measures that some of its States have adopted to protect human life from its origins. These measures regarding such a fundamental issue must be an emblem of your country, of which you must feel justifiably proud since upon the recognition of right to life “every human community and the political community itself are founded” (John Paul II, Encyclical Letter Evangelium vitae, n. 2).

[INTERVENTION BY THE HOLY SEE
AT THE 62nd SESSION OF THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY
OF THE ORGANIZATION OF THE UNITED NATIONS

ADDRESS OF H.E. MSGR. DOMINIQUE MAMBERTI](http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/s...uments/rc_seg-st_20071001_mamberti-un_en.html)

The most important part of our work in this context is to ensure that the inherent right to life is respected everywhere. This fundamental right must be protected from conception until natural death. Therefore, we must work to stop and reverse the culture of death embraced by some social and legal structures that try to make the suppression of life acceptable by disguising it as a medical or social service. In this sense, the abolition of the death penalty should also be seen as a consequence of full respect for the right to life.

[
SYNODUS EPISCOPORUM
BULLETIN

II ORDINARY SPECIAL ASSEMBLY FOR AFRICA
OF THE SYNOD OF BISHOPS
4-25 OCTOBER 2009](http://www.vatican.va/news_services...i_speciale-africa-2009/02_inglese/b33_02.html)

“The Church sees as a sign of hope a growing public opposition to the death penalty, even when such a penalty is seen as an expression of justice and a kind of legitimate defense on the part of society. Modern society in fact has the means of effectively suppressing crime by rendering criminals harmless without definitely denying them the chance to reform” (“The Compendium of Social Doctrine of the Catholic Church”, 405).
The dignity of the person requires that his or her fundamental rights be respected even when one does not respect the rights of others. The death penalty frustrates such an aim. At times, the death penalty is used to eliminate political opponents. Moreover, poor people, who cannot defend themselves, are more easily subjected to this final un-appealable punishment.
This Synod calls for the total and universal abolition of the death penalty.

 

[louis91766]

DECLARATION OF THE HOLY SEE
TO THE FIRST WORLD CONGRESS
ON THE DEATH PENALTY


ADDRESS OF HIS HOLINESS BENEDICT XVI
TO HIS EXCELLENCY
Mr. HÉCTOR FEDERICO LING ALTAMIRANO,
NEW AMBASSADOR OF MEXICO
TO THE HOLY SEE

[INTERVENTION BY THE HOLY SEE
AT THE 62nd SESSION OF THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY
OF THE ORGANIZATION OF THE UNITED NATIONS

ADDRESS OF H.E. MSGR. DOMINIQUE MAMBERTI](http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/s...uments/rc_seg-st_20071001_mamberti-un_en.html)

[
SYNODUS EPISCOPORUM
BULLETIN

II ORDINARY SPECIAL ASSEMBLY FOR AFRICA
OF THE SYNOD OF BISHOPS
4-25 OCTOBER 2009](http://www.vatican.va/news_services...i_speciale-africa-2009/02_inglese/b33_02.html)

So the teaching on capital punishment has changed?

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

So the teaching on capital punishment has changed?

I don’t know if it’s changed, or evolved in it’s thinking on the necessity, in it’s view on the penal system in place today and in light of it’s teaching on human dignity.

 

[SamH]

My brain hurts when I read through Prodigal’s arguments. When Ender provides 20+ statements from past popes and catechisms illustrating the Church’s support for capital punishment (which Prodigal dismisses as Ender’s private (mis)interpretation), Ender is accused by Prodigal of cherry picking.

At least now Prodigal Son1 is posting sources, in the past he’s parsed his “quotes” to make it appear that they agree with his claims.

 

[SamH]

That argument seems to contradict in my opinion.

You are entitled to your opinion and it is your opinion. Please don’t try to pass it off as the Church’s.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

You are entitled to your opinion and it is your opinion. Please don’t try to pass it off as the Church’s.

That argument seems to contradict in my opinion.

The most recent sources provided from Pope John Paul II and Pope Benedict XVI seem to support my view as it coming from the Church.

DECLARATION OF THE HOLY SEE
TO THE FIRST WORLD CONGRESS
ON THE DEATH PENALTY


ADDRESS OF HIS HOLINESS BENEDICT XVI
TO HIS EXCELLENCY
Mr. HÉCTOR FEDERICO LING ALTAMIRANO,
NEW AMBASSADOR OF MEXICO
TO THE HOLY SEE

[INTERVENTION BY THE HOLY SEE
AT THE 62nd SESSION OF THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY
OF THE ORGANIZATION OF THE UNITED NATIONS

ADDRESS OF H.E. MSGR. DOMINIQUE MAMBERTI](http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/s...uments/rc_seg-st_20071001_mamberti-un_en.html)

[
SYNODUS EPISCOPORUM
BULLETIN

II ORDINARY SPECIAL ASSEMBLY FOR AFRICA
OF THE SYNOD OF BISHOPS
4-25 OCTOBER 2009](http://www.vatican.va/news_services...i_speciale-africa-2009/02_inglese/b33_02.html)

 

[Hastrman]

That argument seems to contradict in my opinion.

The most recent sources provided from Pope John Paul II and Pope Benedict XVI seem to support my view as it coming from the Church.

But since it does not meet the criterion of defined dogma, we are permitted to disagree. Otherwise every scribble on a napkin by the Pope would have to be treated as ex cathedra. Benedict himself has said the death penalty is a matter of prudential judgment.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

But since it does not meet the criterion of defined dogma, we are permitted to disagree. Otherwise every scribble on a napkin by the Pope would have to be treated as ex cathedra. Benedict himself has said the death penalty is a matter of prudential judgment.

I never said it had to be treated as ex cathedra.

I can appreciate those that have time to read the many different writings from the Church. I do not. I also trust the Pope to have a much better understanding of those writings when he makes statements such as 'In this sense, the abolition of the death penalty should also be seen as a consequence of full respect for the right to life.’ It gives me understanding to teachings in the Catechism and scriptures.

That’s all I’m trying to do, is let Church teachings give me understanding of how to view issues, as opposed to trying to make Church teachings fit my view of issues.

 

[Ender]

I don’t know if it’s changed, or evolved in it’s thinking on the necessity, in it’s view on the penal system in place today and in light of it’s teaching on human dignity.

One thing we can know for sure is that the teaching on human dignity has not changed, as of course human dignity itself cannot change. What this means is that if the death penalty was not contrary to human dignity before it cannot be an affront to it now. Inasmuch as the Church has for 2000 years supported the right of States to use capital punishment I think we can assume she never found its use contrary to that dignity and does not find it to be so now. Penal systems may change but the nature of the person does not.

Ender

 

[Ender]

I also trust the Pope to have a much better understanding of those writings when he makes statements such as 'In this sense, the abolition of the death penalty should also be seen as a consequence of full respect for the right to life.’ It gives me understanding to teachings in the Catechism and scriptures.

That’s all I’m trying to do, is let Church teachings give me understanding of how to view issues, as opposed to trying to make Church teachings fit my view of issues.

No one disputes that the clergy is opposed to capital punishment, but don’t for a moment believe that personal opposition is the same thing as Church doctrine.

• I would like to acknowledge joyfully the initiative of Mexico which, in 2005, eliminated capital punishment*

That BXVI is pleased with the actions Mexico took is not an argument about the moral nature of capital punishment.

Ender

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

One thing we can know for sure is that the teaching on human dignity has not changed, as of course human dignity itself cannot change. What this means is that if the death penalty was not contrary to human dignity before it cannot be an affront to it now. Inasmuch as the Church has for 2000 years supported the right of States to use capital punishment I think we can assume she never found its use contrary to that dignity and does not find it to be so now. Penal systems may change but the nature of the person does not.

Ender

Human dignity is doctrinal, not so for the death penalty. It was a succession of the Church that states had a ‘right’. Pope John Paul II, and Pope Benedict, have far more insight into ‘Church teachings’ than myself, and I would guess you as well. I trust their teachings and do not find Pope Benedict’s recognition of an abolition of the death penalty to be against the Church’s teachings on morals. I submit myself to their decisions, as Paul told us to ‘Obey our prelates and be subject to them. For they watch as being to render an account of your souls: that they may do this with joy and not with grief. For this is not expedient for you.’ I cannot see this recognition for an abolition of the death penalty as conflicting with the Gospel of Christ. As I’ve said, I accept what the Church teaches to form my views. I do not search through documents seeking an absolution of my views, or attempt to fit Church teachings to my view. This requires prayerful reflection and digging into scriptures. It was through scriptures that I discovered the Catholic Church to be the true Church of Christ. What we discuss here is not taught by Christ, or the Apostles, anywhere. For me, that makes this subject something I don’t have to discern further with what John Paul or Benedict have said.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

No one disputes that the clergy is opposed to capital punishment, but don’t for a moment believe that personal opposition is the same thing as Church doctrine.

• I would like to acknowledge joyfully the initiative of Mexico which, in 2005, eliminated capital punishment*

That BXVI is pleased with the actions Mexico took is not an argument about the moral nature of capital punishment.

Ender

When the Pope makes statements such as:

'In this sense, the abolition of the death penalty should also be seen as a consequence of full respect for the right to life.

I take it as a true connection equivalent to abortion in that it shows a ‘full respect for the right to life’, or at the very least questioning the moral nature of capital punishment when it’s said the abolition of the death penalty should be seen as a consequence of full respect for the right to life. That’s what makes the opposing view so hard to understand on this discussion. How can one be so against abortion, for the sanctity of life, and at the same time call for, or justify, the death of another? That is a view I feel must be discerned, as I see it as conflicting.

 

[Hastrman]

• I would like to acknowledge joyfully the initiative of Mexico which, in 2005, eliminated capital punishment*

That BXVI is pleased with the actions Mexico took is not an argument about the moral nature of capital punishment.

Yeah, how’s that working out for you, Mexico?

 

[louis91766]

But since it does not meet the criterion of defined dogma, we are permitted to disagree. Otherwise every scribble on a napkin by the Pope would have to be treated as ex cathedra. Benedict himself has said the death penalty is a matter of prudential judgment.

Who ever said that a scribble on a napkin would qualify as official ex cathedra teaching of the Roman Catholic Church? There are certain definite criteria which must be satisified for a teaching to be ex cathedra and just scribbling something on a napkin would not meet the criteria. You should go back and study these criteria and see that they involve quite a bit more than scribbling on a napkin.

 

[louis91766]

<<<"'In this sense, the abolition of the death penalty should also be seen as a consequence of full respect for the right to life.>>>
Since the Roman Catholic Church has been teaching the full respect for life, this papal quote clinches the argument that the current teaching of the Catholic Church is the abolition of the death penalty.

 

[Linda_Marie]

thank you, but I get the feeling in twenty years they’ll be saying that murderers deserve three more chances and a group hug.

No need to wait 20 years.

British teen jailed for life for murdering ex-girlfriend on a dare

A BRITISH schoolboy who murdered his ex-girlfriend after friends promised him a “free breakfast” if he carried out his threats to harm her was jailed yesterday for life.

Joshua Davies, 16, lured 15-year-old Rebecca Aylward to a wood near Bridgend, South Wales, and smashed her skull with a rock the size of a football, a court heard.

<…>
Branding Davies as “devious, calculating and controlling,” Justice Lloyd Jones said that he had expressed no remorse and would serve at least 14 years behind bars.

Rebecca’s family said that Davies - who laughed throughout much of the trial - robbed them of watching their “precious and perfect girl flourish into a successful young woman.”

Britain abolished the death penalty years ago and now a ‘life’ sentence for a heinous, cold, pre-meditated, unrepented murder is, in truth, only 14 years. Then, he will be given another chance, unlike his victim.

Our penal systems are not performing in the ideal manner desired, no matter how much we may want to believe that they are. They are massively overcrowded, for one thing. We just don’t have the facilities to keep all these people locked up for the rest of their lives.

Thus, contrary to the sentiment expressed by the Bishops that it is possible for our current prison systems to keep these people imprisoned for the rest of their lives, murderers and other violent offenders are released; released to prey on the unsuspecting public once again.

There is no mercy in this, nor justice, since they will visit their violence on more innocent victims.

Without justice, there is no social order. Without social order, chaos reigns*. Chaos is from satan.

*see recent flash mob riots

 

[Hastrman]

The Pope has himself said there is legitimate disagreement about the death penalty—because he knows better than anyone what his authority actually is. His teaching charism does not extend to knowing the law-and-order circumstances in any given community.

Contrary to anti-Catholic propaganda, the Pope does not—he cannot—do all our thinking for us. Every community must decide whether it needs to use the death penalty, or wage war, or, for that matter, how it’s going to organize its politics and economics.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

The Pope has himself said there is legitimate disagreement about the death penalty—because he knows better than anyone what his authority actually is. His teaching charism does not extend to knowing the law-and-order circumstances in any given community.

Contrary to anti-Catholic propaganda, the Pope does not—he cannot—do all our thinking for us. Every community must decide whether it needs to use the death penalty, or wage war, or, for that matter, how it’s going to organize its politics and economics.

That sounds like country first, Church second. For me, it’s the other way around.

Heb 13:17 Obey your prelates and be subject to them. For they watch as being to render an account of your souls: that they may do this with joy and not with grief. For this is not expedient for you.
Heb 13:18 Pray for us. For we trust we have a good conscience, being willing to behave ourselves well in all things.

 

[Hastrman]

Just letting y’all know.

There’s been too much ad hominem on here. Specifically, saying that people who favor the death penalty are putting their nations’ or parties’ beliefs ahead of the faith. Aside from the fact that the same can be said for opposition to it, the Pope himself has said there is legitimate disagreement on this issue. “Putting country (or party) ahead of religion” is not legitimate.

Therefore, I will report it every time anyone makes such a claim.

Now argue decently.