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seekerz
Guest
How do you tell which ones will continue to kill before they have killed?
Ahead of inmate’s execution, Florida Catholic bishops seek clemency
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RobbyS
Guest
The problem is with an erratic legal system , which, on the one hand, imprisons petty criminals for long periods of time but allows murderers to return to society after a few years. In the context of the system that exists–that actually exists–persons who commit heinous crimes and who constitute a threat to other prisoners as well as the public, should be put to death. The problem is that the issue has become a political football, with the issue of race trumping public safety.
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JOHN_DEVANEY
Guest
It is interesting to note: the US Government, the US military and 34 states have the death penalty.
16 States and the District of Columbia, American Samoa, Guam, Northern Mariana Islands, Puerto Rico, and U.S. Virgin Islands do not.
If morality is the basis for such a split, seemingly similar people would not be so divergent in the use of such totally opposite laws. Only four states adopted laws outlawing capital punishment prior to 1957. I cannot believe that the people prior to 1957 were such an immoral people.
I do not believe in the use of capital punishment as a personal belief. But then no member of my family has ever been, raped, tortured, or murder. I do believe my approach to the moral issue might be different, if that had been so. I do not consider this to be an moral issue one way or the other.
Moral or not, I do not believe that the benefit gained is worth the additional costs of the trials and mandatory appeals. I also believe that keeping a person in a capital punishment condition for up to twenty years is cruel and not becoming of an American citizen.
As I said in an earlier posting, without the death penalty were would probably be a religious people but not Christian. Jesus was put to death in accordance with the law. We would be hunting for religion somewhere else without his death. I for one am grateful that He died for my sins.
John Devaney
16 States and the District of Columbia, American Samoa, Guam, Northern Mariana Islands, Puerto Rico, and U.S. Virgin Islands do not.
If morality is the basis for such a split, seemingly similar people would not be so divergent in the use of such totally opposite laws. Only four states adopted laws outlawing capital punishment prior to 1957. I cannot believe that the people prior to 1957 were such an immoral people.
I do not believe in the use of capital punishment as a personal belief. But then no member of my family has ever been, raped, tortured, or murder. I do believe my approach to the moral issue might be different, if that had been so. I do not consider this to be an moral issue one way or the other.
Moral or not, I do not believe that the benefit gained is worth the additional costs of the trials and mandatory appeals. I also believe that keeping a person in a capital punishment condition for up to twenty years is cruel and not becoming of an American citizen.
As I said in an earlier posting, without the death penalty were would probably be a religious people but not Christian. Jesus was put to death in accordance with the law. We would be hunting for religion somewhere else without his death. I for one am grateful that He died for my sins.
John Devaney
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Prodigal_Son1
Guest
I was reading something today and the quoted post came to mind. In fact, several posters have said that it is not the Church’s teaching that the death penalty should be opposed.
Below are excerpts from the document I was reading today…
The document is the updated USCCB Forming Consciences for Faithful Citizenship, A Call to Political Responsibility from the Catholic Bishops of the United States. Do those who deny that opposing the death penalty is Church teaching feel this document should be ignored?
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louis91766
Guest
“Catholic teaching about the dignity of life calls us to oppose torture…”
But this contradicts a letter of Pope Innocent IV which approved of torture to extract confessions.
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Prodigal_Son1
Guest
You left part of the quote out.
BTW, it’s not a letter, it’s the Catholic voting guide issued by the USCCB.
Now, do we search for a Pope who taught as we believe, or do we believe the prelates over us in this time?
I realize, or hope, you’re being sarcastic.
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Ender
Guest
I find it hard to take anything the USCCB says seriously, but I can be persuaded by a good argument … should they come up with one.
- “Yet our nation’s continued reliance on the death penalty cannot be justified.” *
“Because we have other ways to protect society that are more respectful of human life, the USCCB supports efforts to end the use of the death penalty.”
It is ironic that the USCCB discounts the only justification the Catechism gives for using the death penalty: in those cases where it is necessary for protection. More to the point, protection is only a secondary objective of punishment, so if the death penalty can be used without offending man’s dignity to achieve a secondary objective (as the catechism says it can), then surely it can be used to achieve the primary objective without offending that dignity.
Ender
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louis91766
Guest
I thought that Catholics were supposed to follow their bishops in matters of ethics and morals.
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Linda_Marie
Guest
The USCCB is not the bishops, despite its name, and its pronouncements do not carry any authority to bind Catholics.
Moreover, it has been inflitrated with anti-Catholic sentiments. It funds the promotion of abortion, artificial birth control and homosexuality through the CCHD. Despite the bishops being informed, the funding of these activities increased from 21% of the CCHD budget to 24% last year.
The USCCB should be disregarded as a Catholic voice. Sometimes they say things in keeping with doctrine and sometimes they say things in opposition to doctrine. It is best just not to listen to them at all or you could end up very confused about the Teachings of the Church.
It is Doctrine that the State has the moral authority to apply the death penalty. It is not intrinsically evil, like abortion, or murder.
As was pointed out in previous posts, it has been possible to lock someone up for life for many centuries. This isn’t something we have only just been able to do.
For instance, there are prison cells in castles in Europe and the Middle East that were called ‘oubliettes’. This is derived from the French ‘oublier’ - to forget. People were put in these cells and they weren’t opened again til they died.
The death penalty is already infrequently imposed. It is reserved for the most heinous of murders. The argument that they must have time to repent their crimes and return to God is not violated by the imposition of the death penalty. No one is subject to summary execution and the murderer has ample time in prison to repent and return to God before the sentence is carried out, if it ever is.
I think, the very fact that they won’t face execution will keep them from repenting. They got away with it. They will go to their graves with mortal sins on their souls, which is not what the bishops intend in their opposition to the death penalty.
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ladymartha
Guest
I cannot believe the thread I just read. Are we really followers of Christ or for that matter God’s children and we want to execute people?
Let’s go to the Bible and let’s see what God thinks about the death penalty.
Ok…Cain killed Abel and it was the first murder. Cain is punished by God who tells him he will not be more than a vagabond and a fugitive. Then Cain tells God that everyone will want to slay him.
And God’s answer is (from the Book of Genesis Chapter 4)
4:15 And the LORD said unto him, Therefore whosoever slayeth Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold. And the LORD set a mark upon Cain, lest any finding him should kill him.
Did you read that? Whosoever slayeth Cain, vengeane shall be taken on him sevenfold. If we kill someone for killing another, we will pay for it sevenfold.
This is where the answer is in regards to the death penalty. Why does everyone miss it? It is in how God handle the first murder…no one was to touch Cain.
Let’s go to the Bible and let’s see what God thinks about the death penalty.
Ok…Cain killed Abel and it was the first murder. Cain is punished by God who tells him he will not be more than a vagabond and a fugitive. Then Cain tells God that everyone will want to slay him.
And God’s answer is (from the Book of Genesis Chapter 4)
4:15 And the LORD said unto him, Therefore whosoever slayeth Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold. And the LORD set a mark upon Cain, lest any finding him should kill him.
Did you read that? Whosoever slayeth Cain, vengeane shall be taken on him sevenfold. If we kill someone for killing another, we will pay for it sevenfold.
This is where the answer is in regards to the death penalty. Why does everyone miss it? It is in how God handle the first murder…no one was to touch Cain.
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Linda_Marie
Guest
Genesis 4:15 speaks about Cain only.
if it were for all murderers, God would not have given this command:
Genesis 9: 5-6
Of man as regards his fellow-man, I shall demand account for human life.
6 He who sheds the blood of man, by man shall his blood be shed, for in the image of God was man created.
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Ender
Guest
Fortunately that directive does not apply to the USCCB:
“No episcopal conference, as such, has a teaching mission; its documents have no weight of their own save that of the consent given to them by the individual bishops.” (Cardinal Ratzinger)
Ender
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Prodigal_Son1
Guest
The officers for the USCCB below:
Do they not represent the US Bishops?
Aren’t the officers chosen by Bishops?
Are you saying we can ignore the voter’s guide from the USCCB?
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Ender
Guest
No. No one can speak for a bishop.
Yes
This depends entirely on whether your own bishop says it is authoritative. If he doesn’t, it isn’t. Although (worse) there is no reason to ignore it since you can find support in it for whatever position you choose to take.
Ender
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JOHN_DEVANEY
Guest
I like the idea of going to the bible to see if God as inspired any comments on murder and other sins.
It seems that Paul addressed this issue as follows:
“They are filled with every form of wickedness, evil, greed, and malice; full of envy, murder, rivalry, treachery, and spite. They are gossips and scandalmongers and they hate God. They are insolent, haughty, boastful, ingenious in their wickedness, and rebellious toward their parents. They are senseless, faithless, heartless, and ruthless. Although they know the just decree of God that all who practice such things deserve death, they not only do them but give approval to those who practice them. Roman 1:29.
Somehow that sounds just about right.
I am against the death penalty because of the cost. In our system of fairness, we have to pay for the defense of those who say they have no money. And pay we do, a lot.
John Devaney
It seems that Paul addressed this issue as follows:
“They are filled with every form of wickedness, evil, greed, and malice; full of envy, murder, rivalry, treachery, and spite. They are gossips and scandalmongers and they hate God. They are insolent, haughty, boastful, ingenious in their wickedness, and rebellious toward their parents. They are senseless, faithless, heartless, and ruthless. Although they know the just decree of God that all who practice such things deserve death, they not only do them but give approval to those who practice them. Roman 1:29.
Somehow that sounds just about right.
I am against the death penalty because of the cost. In our system of fairness, we have to pay for the defense of those who say they have no money. And pay we do, a lot.
John Devaney
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Ender
Guest
What is being denied is that any action deserves death. Paul’s statement has been repudiated.
Ender
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JOHN_DEVANEY
Guest
Mathew, Luke and Paul had many things to say about punishment in general and capital punishment in specific.
I offer these quotes from the most recent NAACB Bible.
“Mat. 15:3-4 He said to them in reply, “And why do you break the commandment of God for the sake of your tradition? For God said, ‘Honor your father and your mother,’ and ‘Whoever curses father or mother shall die.
Acts 25:1 If I have committed a crime or done anything deserving death, I do not seek to escape the death penalty.
Rom 13:3-7 For rulers are not a cause of fear to good conduct, but to evil. Do you wish to have no fear of authority? Then do what is good and you will receive approval from it, for it is a servant of God for your good. But if you do evil, be afraid, for it does not bear the sword without purpose; it is the servant of God to inflict wrath on the evildoer. Therefore, it is necessary to be subject not only because of the wrath but also because of conscience. Rom 13:3-7
Heb. 10:28-29 Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies (present tense) without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot.
Heb. 10:28-29
1 Tim. 1:8-9 We know that the law is good, provided that one uses it as law, with the understanding that law is meant not for a righteous person but for the lawless and unruly, the godless and sinful, the unholy and profane, those who kill their fathers or mothers, murderers, the unchaste, sodomites, kidnapers, liars, perjurers, and whatever else is opposed to sound teaching, according to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, with which I have been entrusted.
Rev. 13:10 Anyone destined for captivity goes into captivity. Anyone destined to be slain by the sword shall be slain by the sword. Such is the faithful endurance of the holy ones
Rev. 13:10.”*
The concept of punishment is not alien to the teachings of Jesus. In fact, in Matthew 18:15-20, the procedure is listed in detail and ends with whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven.
John Devaney
I offer these quotes from the most recent NAACB Bible.
“Mat. 15:3-4 He said to them in reply, “And why do you break the commandment of God for the sake of your tradition? For God said, ‘Honor your father and your mother,’ and ‘Whoever curses father or mother shall die.
Acts 25:1 If I have committed a crime or done anything deserving death, I do not seek to escape the death penalty.
Rom 13:3-7 For rulers are not a cause of fear to good conduct, but to evil. Do you wish to have no fear of authority? Then do what is good and you will receive approval from it, for it is a servant of God for your good. But if you do evil, be afraid, for it does not bear the sword without purpose; it is the servant of God to inflict wrath on the evildoer. Therefore, it is necessary to be subject not only because of the wrath but also because of conscience. Rom 13:3-7
Heb. 10:28-29 Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies (present tense) without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot.
Heb. 10:28-29
1 Tim. 1:8-9 We know that the law is good, provided that one uses it as law, with the understanding that law is meant not for a righteous person but for the lawless and unruly, the godless and sinful, the unholy and profane, those who kill their fathers or mothers, murderers, the unchaste, sodomites, kidnapers, liars, perjurers, and whatever else is opposed to sound teaching, according to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, with which I have been entrusted.
Rev. 13:10 Anyone destined for captivity goes into captivity. Anyone destined to be slain by the sword shall be slain by the sword. Such is the faithful endurance of the holy ones
Rev. 13:10.”*
The concept of punishment is not alien to the teachings of Jesus. In fact, in Matthew 18:15-20, the procedure is listed in detail and ends with whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven.
John Devaney
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louis91766
Guest
Does that mean then that the Catholic bishops who are opposing the death penalty and who are teaching Catholics to oppose the death penalty are wrong?
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Ender
Guest
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louis91766
Guest
In the diocesan newspaper, it is said that Christians are called to oppose capital punishment? So is this teaching right or wrong?
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