Ahmadinejad denies Holocaust, again

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Better watch out. What do you think the Muslims voting for a Shia state in Iraq think? Anything different?
 
For the third time in a week, Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad said Wednesday the Holocaust is a “myth” that Europeans have used to create a Jewish state in the heart of the Islamic world.

Speaking to thousands of people in the southeastern city of Zahedan, Ahmadinejad said: “Today, they have created a myth in the name of Holocaust and consider it to be above God, religion and the prophets.”

Ahmadinejad said it was the Europeans who committed crimes against the Jews and they, the United States or Canada, should give part of their land to the Jews to establish a state.

“If [the Europeans] committed this big crime, then why should the oppressed Palestinian nation pay the price?” Ahmadinejad asked rhetorically Wednesday. "You have to pay the compensation yourself.

jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1134309577132&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull
 
He is giving us arguments against islam, and is destroying the image, that “islam is peace”, well Ahmadi, thanks.
 
This guy is dangerous. He is purposely trying to bring the region into disarray with his comments and actions. If Iran does develop functional nuclear devices, I expect he will either use them or blackmail the region.

PF
 
Are you for democracy or not? Was the guy duly elected or not? Who do you think those folks are going to elect? Who do you all think the Iraqis are going to elect?
 
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mdzialo1:
Are you for democracy or not? Was the guy duly elected or not? Who do you think those folks are going to elect? Who do you all think the Iraqis are going to elect?
This guy was not ‘elected’ via a democracy. There was a 2nd round of voting when this president was ‘voted’ in, and then he had to be confirmed by the ayatollah (supreme leader) of Iran. There were many irregularities in the election as well. All candidates running for political office in Iran have to be checked by the ‘religious police’. On the 2nd round of voting 7 million people who had originally voted stayed home because of frustration. SMS messages were banned during the week of the election, which is how most young people in Iran communicate. If you call that democracy, then I feel sorry for you… Having an election does not equal democracy.

Most younger Iranians are not hard core Islamists, and are in fact very pro-Western.
 
Semper Fi:
On the 2nd round of voting 7 million people who had originally voted stayed home because of frustration.
Of course; the people got into that situation by messing up voting in the first round and not getting the most popular candidates through, a bit like they did in France a few years back. It’s one reason why a one-off election, like in the UK or the US, isn’t necessarily such a bad idea.

Mike
 
This guy looks like he is trying to pick a fight. Trying to trick Israel or someone in the West to attack Iran, thus justifying what he wants in the first place: war.
 
Scary stuff, especially if you are willing to delve deeper into what he said and why he said it. Al-Jazeera have printed the story and also this article english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/882BF23B-0D16-4C1F-9983-3428DDB96A18.htm

**Ahmadinejad defends anti-Israel tirade **

In it, he states- "Western policy in regards to Palestine has always been in favour of the Zionist regime and harmed the Islamic world, and they cannot be the mediators and judges on the issue.
“All Islamic countries must strive to change the Islamic world’s stance after 60 or 70 years in a passive state,” he said.

Interesting. You have to wonder what the world powers make of him and his fiery stance, and whether he poses a real threat, or is just shouting his mouth off. You would think his position so precarious that he would have more of a care in antagonising America really!
 
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FightingFat:
Scary stuff, especially if you are willing to delve deeper into what he said and why he said it. Al-Jazeera have printed the story and also this article english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/882BF23B-0D16-4C1F-9983-3428DDB96A18.htm

**Ahmadinejad defends anti-Israel tirade **

In it, he states- "Western policy in regards to Palestine has always been in favour of the Zionist regime and harmed the Islamic world, and they cannot be the mediators and judges on the issue.
“All Islamic countries must strive to change the Islamic world’s stance after 60 or 70 years in a passive state,” he said.

Interesting. You have to wonder what the world powers make of him and his fiery stance, and whether he poses a real threat, or is just shouting his mouth off. You would think his position so precarious that he would have more of a care in antagonising America really!
All he’s doing is getting his feet wet to see how long the civilized world’ll take his tantrums. More than likely, this is the same guy that invaded our embassy in the 1979 takeover.
In 1979, Ahmadinejad was the head representative of IUST to the unofficial student gatherings that occasionally met with the Ayatollah Khomeini. In these sessions, the foundations of the first Office for Strengthening Unity (daftar-e tahkim-e vahdat), the student organization of which several members behind seizure of the United States embassy which led to the Iran hostage crisis, were created. Ahmadinejad became a member of the Office of Strengthening Unity. Before the seizure of the embassy, Ahmadinejad had suggested a simultaneous or similar attempt against the Soviet Union embassy, but was voted down, resulting in independent pursuit of the idea by its proponents.
 
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WanderAimlessly:
This guy is dangerous. He is purposely trying to bring the region into disarray with his comments and actions.

PF
Sounds like he’s trying to muscle in on our territory there. Remember “creative destruction” as espoused by the neoconservative intellectual Michael Ledeen?
 
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gnjsdad:
Sounds like he’s trying to muscle in on our territory there. Remember “creative destruction” as espoused by the neoconservative intellectual Michael Ledeen?
Spoken like someone who is itching to start another war.
 
Hi all!

It’s easy for some people here to make jokes and talk about neo-cons and whatnot. It’s not your country that this fanatic (who’s not insane, that’s the scary part, and who may soon have nuclear weapons, that’s the really, really scary part) ) wants to see wiped off the map.

Jonathan Freedland had a good article in yesterday’s Guardian:
The sickness bequeathed by the west to the Muslim world
The Iranian president’s support for Holocaust denial is a measure of how far the infection of Jew-hatred has spread

Jonathan Freedland
Wednesday December 14, 2005
Guardian

There were few memorable moments in the election campaign of 2005, but there’s one I won’t forget. It came when I was interviewing a group of Muslim voters in Edinburgh, asking how the Iraq war had unsettled their political allegiances. One older man began telling me that he did not blame Tony Blair or even George Bush for the way things had turned out, because they were mere dupes of a more powerful force. The calamity of 9/11 was not all it seemed: the authors of that event were not the 19 hijackers, but more shadowy players, unknown even to Bush. Later, as he gave me a lift to the station, I asked who these secret powers might be. The answer was “rich Jewish people”.

I told him that just as there were plenty of lies told about Muslims, so there were lies told about Jews - and that neither of us should accept either. I put the comments to one side, dismissing them as the ramblings of one man.

Again and again in recent years, I’ve made the same move. I’ve read the reports of sermons in the Arab world, denouncing Judaism and Jews, and tried to see a wider context.

So I saw the vox pop on Saudi TV asking people on the street whether they would ever shake hands with a Jew - unanimous answer: no - and guessed that perhaps this was an exceptional item, hardly indicative. I read the transcript of an interview with Basmallah, a three-year-old girl, again aired on Saudi TV, who was introduced as a “Muslim girl, a true Muslim”. Here’s the exchange:

Host: Basmallah, do you know the Jews?

Basmallah: Yes.

Host: Do you like them?

Basmallah: No.

Host: Why don’t you like them?

Basmallah: Because they are apes and pigs.

I shuddered to read such a thing. But it was translated and distributed by the Middle East Media Research Institute (memri.org/), and, like others, I wondered about the group’s motives: Memri was founded by a veteran of Israeli military intelligence. (On the other hand, few challenge the accuracy of Memri’s translations: unpalatable though they are, the texts Memri finds are all too real.)

Such has been my standard operating procedure, constantly trying to see if there’s a way to contextualise these incidents, to see them in proportion. My motivation was not complicated: I prefer my Jewish identity to be positive, rather than defined by a perennial defence against anti-semitism.

But everyone has their limits and last week I reached mine. On Thursday the president of Iran chose to stand with the cranks, neo-fascists and racists who deny the factual truth of the Holocaust.

“Some European countries insist on saying that Hitler killed millions of innocent Jews in furnaces,” said Mahmoud Ahmadinejad. “Although we don’t accept this claim…”

Suddenly, the usual apologetics won’t work. No one can say Iran’s president was really complaining about Israel or Zionism, rather than Jews. No one can say he was talking about the west’s colonial crimes. He was peddling, instead, one of the defining tropes of the racist hard right: Holocaust denial. It is a stance that seeks to deny Jews their history, their suffering, almost their very being. Like denying that African-Americans were ever slaves, it is a move made by those who wish only harm.

In this light, Ahmadinejad’s previous musings look rather different. When, in October, he stood beneath a banner that promised “A world without Zionism” and called for Israel to be “wiped off the map”, many Jews felt a chill at what seemed an annihilationist fantasy. Cooler heads said no, this was merely the hyperbolic style of the region, deployed to press a robust anti-Zionist rather than anti-semitic case. What he wanted, they explained patiently, was a world without Zionism, not a world without Jews.

(cont.)
 
We have some apologists for the Iranian president on this board. I have seen more than one poster claim that he is not serious–that it is just rhetoric. These are usually the same posters who find Israel to be just a bit short of pure evil. Both of the posters I am thinking of come from the UK.
 
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bapcathluth:
We have some apologists for the Iranian president on this board. I have seen more than one poster claim that he is not serious–that it is just rhetoric. These are usually the same posters who find Israel to be just a bit short of pure evil. Both of the posters I am thinking of come from the UK.
How much would they believe it was just rhetoric if Israel responed that the next time he made a statement like that they were going to bomb Tehran?
 
(cont.)

Well, now I’m done with the charitable explanations. A man who refuses to believe the historic truth is capable of anything. This is not an Arabic cable TV station or an obscure Egyptian newspaper. This is a head of government, the leader of a nation of 70 million - a country that aspires to lead the Muslim world. And, lest we forget, Iran has nuclear ambitions. So now it’s not paranoid to worry about a president with annihilationist dreams - it’s smart.

Unfortunately, it doesn’t end with Ahmadinejad, a man with no experience outside Iran, a hick who, Iranian analyst Dr Ali Ansari concedes, is a “monumental embarrassment”. For he has given voice to a sentiment that runs deep in Iran and in the wider Muslim world.

Just look at this week’s Iranian press. “Many revisionist historians believe the story of the Holocaust is fake and have proved it by much evidence and documents,” says the conservative paper Resalat. Hardline Siyasat-e Ruz applauds the leader for “revealing the truth”.

It’s hardly a surprise. TV stations across the Muslim world have been running this garbage for ages, along with lurid anti-semitism. Jordanian TV’s Ramadan special this year was Al-Shatat, a Syrian-produced series that speaks of a “global Jewish government” and depicts the ancient blood libel: the accusation that Jews use the blood of Christian children in preparing food for Passover. That was a follow-up to Egyptian television’s Ramadan treat in 2002: Horseman without a Horse, whose central theme was the Protocols of the Elders of Zion (tinyurl.com/blb8q), the century-old forgery concocted by the Tsarist secret police which alleged a Jewish plot to take over the world.

We can deny it no longer: the virus of anti-semitism has infected the Muslim world. And virus it is, for Jew-hatred on this scale, as Christian Europe can testify, is a kind of sickness. This is one of the grossest legacies bequeathed by the west: that Muslims have taken to heart a form of anti-semitism alien to their own lands, borrowing a language and iconography that was made in Christendom. Blood libels and the Protocols were dreamed up in Norwich (tinyurl.com/7tpc4), Mainz (tinyurl.com/d5v8k) or Moscow - yet now they breathe anew in Cairo, Riyadh and Damascus. Note from ssv: Freedland should have pointed out that Popes Innocent IV and Gregory X (to name just 2) attacked and criticized the blood libel at some length (tinyurl.com/csf7f); he should have also pointed out that it seems that no similarly prominent Muslim cleric has done so. Freedland should have also mentioned how prominent German bishops tried to protect Jews from the murderous Crusader mobs; see the above link on Mainz.]

This represents a menace to Jews, of course, but also a tragedy for Muslims. Theirs is a tradition that historically valued learning, and when an ignoramus like Ahmadinejad denies the overwhelming weight of historical evidence he makes a mockery of that tradition. In a period Jews still look back on as a golden age, Muslims were the people of scholarship, of science, of tolerance and coexistence - a contrast with the Crusader barbarians. Yet now many lap up the myths and lies that were once fed to the peasants of Europe, lies which endured through to the last century - and which led all the way to Treblinka.

Today’s Muslims should want no part of such ignorance or bigotry. It demeans them. So Azzam Tamimi of the Muslim Association of Britain is to be applauded for his implicit condemnation of Ahmadinejad at the Stop the War conference at the weekend, telling his audience that, whatever their views, they could not deny the fact of the Holocaust. Now the Muslim Council of Britain should follow his lead, and that of the Muslim Public Affairs Council in the US, which also condemned this preacher of hate. And those non-Muslim progressives who have made alliances with Islamists should do the same. It may mean some uncomfortable conversations - but the days of denial must end.

freedland@guardian.co.uk
In the December 10th New York Times, Roger Cohen referred to the:
…oddly aberrant morality, always more inclined these days to point to American shortcomings than recognize the nature of the West’s enemies, ever more convinced of American arrogance than the terrorist threat…
Well, nobody now should be unconvinced of the threat posed by Ahmadinejad & his ilk.

Be well!

ssv 👋
 
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stillsmallvoice:
Hi all!

It’s easy for some people here to make jokes and talk about neo-cons and whatnot. It’s not your country that this fanatic (who’s not insane, that’s the scary part, and who may soon have nuclear weapons, that’s the really, really scary part) ) wants to see wiped off the map.
Actually, when this guy mentioned that he wanted Israel wiped off the map, he also mentioned the U.S. Whether it’s feasible for him to wipe out the U.S. as well is up for discussion (with the current border situation it’s not all that unfeasible). So, we are in this together 😉

If you ask almost any Arab, Israel is just an extension of the United States, and many regard it as a US colony (which is stupid, but how they view it).

P.S. what’s the general feeling of our brothers over there in Israel on the front lines? Is war with Iran imminent?
 
Hi all!
Semper Fi:
Actually, when this guy mentioned that he wanted Israel wiped off the map, he also mentioned the U.S. Whether it’s feasible for him to wipe out the U.S. as well is up for discussion (with the current border situation it’s not all that unfeasible). So, we are in this together 😉
The more I think about it the more I am convinced that in the struggle against extremist Islam, we (Jews & Christians, “Zionists” & “Crusaders”) must put aside such differences as we have and (as the saying goes) either hang together or hang separately. We are natural allies. Those who perpetrated the Beslan/Bali/9-11/London massacres & those who have perpetrated all of the suicide bombings here are all cut from the same green cloth. Hopefully, in time, moderate Muslims will join us & will stop being cowed by the extremists & will take their faith back from them.

This is from the November 6th Daily Telegraph:
SUICIDE BOMBERS ON IRAN KIDS’ TV

By Toby Harnden, Chief Foreign Correspondent

(Filed: 06/11/2005)

Iranian state television has broadcast a cartoon that glorifies suicide bombings against Israelis, depicting a young boy blowing himself up after being told: “Go and show the Zionists how brave and heroic are the children of Palestine.”

The cartoon, one of a series shown by the Islamic Republic of Iran Broadcasting on “Jerusalem Day” nine days ago, presents the actions of a boy who kills himself to strike back against Israelis as a noble example for children to follow.

More professionally produced and graphic than previous Iranian propaganda aimed at children, the cartoon appears to be part of a campaign led by President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad to elevate the issue of the destruction of Israel. The day before the cartoon was shown, he declared at a World Without Zionism conference: “This stain of disgrace [Israel] will be wiped off the face of the world - and this is attainable.”

His comments were greeted with outrage in the West and prompted Tony Blair to suggest that military action might be required against Iran if progress towards a nuclear bomb continued.

At the start of the 10-minute animated film, translated into English by the Middle East Media Research Institute (Memri), Abd al-Rahman, a Palestinian youth, watches as Israeli soldiers murder his family.

They are depicted laughing as they strike his mother in the face with a rifle butt and then shoot his father, whose blood splashes the oranges on the trees he cultivated.

Abd comforts his sister and weeps, declaring: “Oh God, I must take revenge upon these bloodthirsty aggressors, who murdered my father, mother and brother.” His cousin Karim introduces him to a neighbour’s son, Jassem, who is a member of a “resistance group”.

Jassem instructs the boys to take part in an attack against Israeli soldiers, applauding their “deep faith” and telling them that they “may become martyrs”. Abd’s aunt bids the boys a tearful farewell. “God willing, you’ll be successful,” she says. “Go, my children. Go and show the Zionists how brave and heroic are the children of Palestine.”

(cont.)
 
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