Ahmadis

[paarsurrey]

We briefly mentioned some differences which were intentionally designed as against those which resulted from the interpolation of man. To illustrate the former, we can refer to a teaching of the Torah which seems to deprive the Jewish people of the option of forgiveness. To a casual observer, from the vantage point of the modern age, it would appear to be a rather ungodly teaching, unbalanced in the favour of vengeance. Yet a closer examination of the requirements of that age would present the teaching in a completely different light. We know that the Children of Israel, under the oppressive and despotic rules of Pharaohs, were deprived of all their fundamental human rights. They were forced to live a life of abasement and slavery, which did not recognise their right to defend themselves and hit back at the oppressor.

Some two centuries of such an abject way of life had virtually robbed them of their upright noble human qualities. They would much rather give up their right to avenge in the name of forgiveness – just another name for utter cowardice. Had they been given the clear option to either take revenge or forgive, few there would be among them who would dare take the former option. As such the teaching of the Torah, though seemingly harsh and over-much one sided, is the most perfect teaching in relation to the requirements of that time. It was a diseased state which was meant to be cured with the bitter pill of this injunction.
continued from the previous post
About thirteen centuries of practising merciless vengeance had indeed hardened the hearts of the Israelites into those of stone. It was at this juncture of time that the Messiah came, who was himself forgiveness, love and modesty personified. Had God granted the Jews of his time both the options of forgiveness and revenge, they would certainly have opted for revenge without even dreaming of forgiveness. The question arises as to what should be the perfect teaching relevant to the time of Jesus? Forgiveness of course, but without the option of revenge. This is exactly what happened. This illustration makes it amply clear that certain teachings, though apparently contradictory, in fact serve the same purpose and work in unison as far as the designs of God are concerned. The purpose is the healing of the sick which may need different medicines at different times.

 

[ASimpleSinner]

Can we take a break from clipping and pasting and examine when or whre it was that the Church defected from the original teachings??

 

[paarsurrey]

Can we take a break from clipping and pasting and examine when or whre it was that the Church defected from the original teachings??

Hi
In the first place JesusYeshuaIssa did not leave anything written by himself when he left from Galilee, after the incident of Crucifixion, alongwith his mother Mary in search of the lost ten tribes of the house of Israel. Jesus left nothing behind anything authenticated by him, in possession of the Church. We Muslims don’t believe in any Christian Church which is only for the Christians, we have mosques, but Quranic text is not related to any particular mosque. It is direct from God revealed on Muhammad and reached us secure and protected. We do respect the NTGospels which have account of Jesus life, but it does not have any strong value for us more than a book of history subject to scrutiny for each event for truth on merit .
Sorry, you may not like it, but while I respect your religion and your religious books, and also your church and your religious personalities; nevertheless I am free to form my own opinion to my entire satisfaction. I feel a tinge of anger in your post, I am sorry to state.
May GodAllahYHWH bless you! I love Jesus and his true followers.
Thanks

 

[ASimpleSinner]

Hi
In the first place JesusYeshuaIssa did not leave anything written by himself when he left from Galilee, after the incident of Crucifixion, alongwith his mother Mary in search of the lost ten tribes of the house of Israel. Jesus left nothing behind anything authenticated by him, in possession of the Church. We Muslims don’t believe in any Christian Church which is only for the Christians, we have mosques, but Quranic text is not related to any particular mosque. It is direct from God revealed on Muhammad and reached us secure and protected. We do respect the NTGospels which have account of Jesus life, but it does not have any strong value for us more than a book of history subject to scrutiny for each event for truth on merit .
Sorry, you may not like it, but while I respect your religion and your religious books, and also your church and your religious personalities; nevertheless I am free to form my own opinion to my entire satisfaction. I feel a tinge of anger in your post, I am sorry to state.
May GodAllahYHWH bless you! I love Jesus and his true followers.
Thanks

There is no anger in my posts.

I am just looking for someone to back up allegations our texts (and thereby our teachings) have been corrupted.

To be honest, it is not about wether I like what you write or not, it is about wether I agree.

You also seem to put the cart before the horse on a specific issue of scriptural authorship. You imply that since Jesus did not write the NT, it is to be discounted, then present to us the notion that Allah directly authored the Koran and we should accept it as such and grant it higher credibility.

At the very least your real and implied arguments demand that we:

1. Accept as a litmus test that Scripture would or should have to be authored directly by Jesus if He were divine and
2. that the Koran in fact was.

We as Catholic claim also that the Catholic faith reached us secure and protected. How do you counter this?

 

[paarsurrey]

There is no anger in my posts.

I am just looking for someone to back up allegations our texts (and thereby our teachings) have been corrupted.

To be honest, it is not about wether I like what you write or not, it is about wether I agree.

You also seem to put the cart before the horse on a specific issue of scriptural authorship. You imply that since Jesus did not write the NT, it is to be discounted, then present to us the notion that Allah directly authored the Koran and we should accept it as such and grant it higher credibility.

At the very least your real and implied arguments demand that we:

1. Accept as a litmus test that Scripture would or should have to be authored directly by Jesus if He were divine and
2. that the Koran in fact was.

We as Catholic claim also that the Catholic faith reached us secure and protected. How do you counter this?

Hi
I think I have written enough on the issue for today for a friendly discussion. I like a friendly group discussion, and I dislike debate which usually only generates hatred. Sorry, I won’t debate.
Thanks

 

[ASimpleSinner]

Hi
I think I have written enough on the issue for today for a friendly discussion. I like a friendly group discussion, and I dislike debate which usually only generates hatred. Sorry, I won’t debate.
Thanks

That is fine.

It is just telling that no one will step forward and demonstrate how the teachings of the church have been corrupted, even if they will insist they have.

 

[Onesimus]

A Muslim (of any sect or breakoff group) would claim that the Bible has been changed/corrupted(?) over the centuries.

I’ve always wondered about that claim.

It would seem to me Muslims should be able to show and authenticate an unchanged/uncorrupted Bible that shows where ours is wrong.

How does one claim something is fake without an original to prove it?

 

[BelFarfalla]

I’ve always wondered about that claim.
It would seem to me Muslims should be able to show and authenticate an unchanged/uncorrupted Bible that shows where ours is wrong.
How does one claim something is fake without an original to prove it?

They will say that since there is no original it cannot be proven to be unchanged.
What they miss is that when a manuscript became worn, it was copied and the old one was buried. The copies were carefully done, with checksums of every page as a method of ensuring accuracy. We us such checksums to today to verify the accuracy of data going across any type of communication buss.

When I deliver software I have to provide the checksum for the executable files. This way we can check the files in the future to ensure that they are not corrupted. It is a very reliable way of ensuring accuracy of data, transcriptions, etc. The Dead Sea Scrolls attest to how well this method worked.

 

[Onesimus]

They will say that since there is no original it cannot be proven to be unchanged.

No, I understood it was something to that effect.

My real point is they are willing to kill over what is nothing but circular reasoning. I can understand the ethics of laying down your own life for your beliefs, but taking someone else’s life from him for not embracing your beliefs is simple extortion.

 

[BelFarfalla]

No, I understood it was something to that effect.

My real point is they are willing to kill over what is nothing but circular reasoning. I can understand the ethics of laying down your own life for your beliefs, but taking someone else’s life from him for not embracing your beliefs is simple extortion.

I agree with you. I don’t get it either.

 

[paarsurrey]

You imply that since Jesus did not write the NT, it is to be discounted.

Hi
I don’t mind if there are about 120 writers who wrote a sort of history books about the time of Jesus, that could be accepted as a historical source and truth could searched out of it like we do from other sources of history on merit of each event and unbiased. All these some 120 books must be treated at par but unfortunately some have been selected by the clergy and are known as NTBible while others have been discarded. The historians should come forward and sift the material for truth, if found, on equal footing from all of these 120 books, with reason ,rationality and valid arguments acceptable to the whole world.
Thanks

One should search truth in the NTBible, but one should not compromise on truth, if it is not found there.

 

[ASimpleSinner]

Hi
I don’t mind if there are about 120 writers who wrote a sort of history books about the time of Jesus, that could be accepted as a historical source and truth could searched out of it like we do from other sources of history on merit of each event and unbiased. All these some 120 books must be treated at par but unfortunately some have been selected by the clergy and are known as NTBible while others have been discarded. The historians should come forward and sift the material for truth, if found, on equal footing from all of these 120 books, with reason ,rationality and valid arguments acceptable to the whole world.
Thanks

One should search truth in the NTBible, but one should not compromise on truth, if it is not found there.

Problematic for a Catholic in this approach is the idea that the decisions made on the texts were wrong - that the judgement of our Church is to be second guessed and that a historical-critical method to all texts such as the “Gospel of St. Thomas” could be applied to come up with a “true truth” - pre-supposing of course that the Truth was lost.

But it must be understood that Catholics are not Protestants - we don’t live by the tenants of sola scriptura and the idea that the Bible alone is our authority and teacher. We believe and profess that there is a true living, breathing church, headed by the Pope of Rome.

It is difficult to suggest to us, without evidence, that our scriptures and our magisterium are in error without evidence of when and where this error took place.

More plainly, the Catholic faith is a tripod - it is a balance between the Scriptures, the teachings of Holy Tradition, and the authority of the hierachy. We are a living breathing entity, not just adherents of a text.

 

[paarsurrey]

But it must be understood that Catholics are not Protestants.
We are a living breathing entity, not just adherents of a text.

Hi
Nevermind for the internal differences of the Catholics vs Protestants. The differences are , to me , in the minor issues which could be resolved if both denominations are sincere and truthful. I would be happier if both the denominations forge a Unity into a United Christendom, for which the Catholics have to sacrifice much and forego on many issues as they are the largest, as they say.
You have happily claimed that Catholics are a living breathing entity, perhaps the Protestants might comment on this that you are under a slumber of centuries, might be dead already if not resussicated. Well this is my opinion, you must differ with me if I am wrong, no compulsion.
Thanks

GodAllahYHWH is All-Knowing and All-Wise; one should invariably give Claim and Reason on all important issues from one’s Revealed Book; one shouldn’t try putting one’s own words into God’s mouth. Kindly let God speak for Claim and Reason and you would know the truth for sure.

 

[eleonardo]

Hi
Nevermind for the internal differences of the Catholics vs Protestants. The differences are , to me , in the minor issues which could be resolved if both denominations are sincere and truthful.

Are you implying that both Catholics and Protestants are not sincere?

I would be happier if both the denominations forge a Unity into a United Christendom, for which the Catholics have to sacrifice much and forego on many issues as they are the largest, as they say.

You want the Catholic Church to forego many issues (and deviate from the Truth) in order to make you happy?

 

[Nepenthe]

Hard to be entirely sure, but I think paarsurrey’s applauding Christian sincerity, and hoping very much that terms can be come to, somehow, one fine day.

Not in a personal way, but hoping to see an end to strife and discord, which is no small blessing, though I use the term as shouldn’t.

 

[paarsurrey]

Hi
I summarise my views on scriptures:
Firstly, JesusYeshuaIssa did not leave anything revealed on him from GodAllahYHWH in the form of written stone tablets as was in case of Moses, Secondly or anything written by JesusYeshuaIssa himself when he left from Galilee, after the incident of Crucifixion, alongwith his mother Mary in search of the lost ten tribes of the house of Israel.
Jesus left nothing behind anything authenticated by him, in possession of the Church.
We do respect the NTGospels which (perhaps stand at a lower stage Thirdly) have account of Jesus life, but it does not have any strong value for us more than a book of history subject to scrutiny, internal as well as external, for each event for truth on merit.
There are about 120+ writers who wrote a sort of history books about the time of Jesus, that could be logically accepted as a historical source and truth could be searched out of it like we do from other sources of history on merit of each event unbiased. All these 120+ books must be treated at par but unfortunately some have been selected by the clergy and are known as NTBible while others have been discarded. The historians should come forward and sift the material for truth, if found, on equal footing from all of these 120+ books, with reason, rationality and valid arguments acceptable to the whole world, as these are claimed to be Universal.
I respect your religion but I think I could form my own opinion freely. My Christian friends may remain steadfast on what they believe , no compulsion , and that is their right.
Thanks

 

[Verisimilitude]

Hi
I summarise my views on scriptures:
Firstly, JesusYeshuaIssa did not leave anything revealed on him from GodAllahYHWH in the form of written stone tablets as was in case of Moses,

Where is something with Muhammads signature? Where are Muhammads stone tablets? The Qur’an does not count. He didn’t write it himself like you are holding Jesus too.

Secondly or anything written by JesusYeshuaIssa himself when he left from Galilee, after the incident of Crucifixion, alongwith his mother Mary in search of the lost ten tribes of the house of Israel.
Jesus left nothing behind anything authenticated by him, in possession of the Church.
We do respect the NTGospels which (perhaps stand at a lower stage

The incident of the crucifixion…You have lost all credibility.
He most certainly did. He left us his Word, his example, and his Peace.

Thirdly) have account of Jesus life, but it does not have any strong value for us more than a book of history subject to scrutiny, internal as well as external, for each event for truth on merit.

Muslims say they recognize the Word but refuse to listen to it. It’s very sad really. The future is less hopefull I think after listening to the Muslims who visit here.

There are about 120+ writers who wrote a sort of history books about the time of Jesus, that could be logically accepted as a historical source and truth could be searched out of it like we do from other sources of history on merit of each event unbiased. All these 120+ books must be treated at par but unfortunately some have been selected by the clergy and are known as NTBible while others have been discarded. The historians should come forward and sift the material for truth, if found, on equal footing from all of these 120+ books, with reason, rationality and valid arguments acceptable to the whole world, as these are claimed to be Universal.
I respect your religion but I think I could form my own opinion freely. My Christian friends may remain steadfast on what they believe , no compulsion , and that is their right.
Thanks

Unbiased? Islam = bias. It is the worship of Muhammad. A man more worthy of prison than accolades.

Are the hadith ruled on by the various schools of Islamic jurisprudence to determine if authentic or not, as are what defines Sharia law? 7th century idealism and paganistic morailty.

Rational valid arguments have been made over 1800 years ago, and are accessible in the West easily. Take advantage of them if you can. Stay away from the Protocols and Mein Kampf. Or do you like those books?

 

[ASimpleSinner]

You have happily claimed that Catholics are a living breathing entity, perhaps the Protestants might comment on this that you are under a slumber of centuries, might be dead already if not resussicated. Well this is my opinion, you must differ with me if I am wrong, no compulsion.
Thanks

I am sorry, I simply don’t understand what you are trying to say here. “Might be dead already if not resussitated?” I don’t know what you are referring to.

 

[BelFarfalla]

**

paarsurrey:
**

Jesus left nothing behind anything authenticated by him, in possession of the Church.
We do respect the NTGospels which (perhaps stand at a lower stage Thirdly) have account of Jesus life, but it does not have any strong value for us more than a book of history subject to scrutiny, ….
You are being a hypocrite. Muhammad did not leave anything in writing. It was an oral tradition that he left. The oral tradition was writing into may versions of the Qur’an. The 3rd caliphate created a copy of the Qur’an for his own liking and destroyed as many of the variant versions as he could find.
Many older, very different versions fo the Qur’an have been found in Yemen… in the rafters of an ancient Mosque. So we now that Muhammad did not leave the Qur’an that exists today.
Jesus left an oral tradition which was recorded in the first century after his death.
The Qur’an is certainly has all he problems that you accuse the bible of having. Yet you choose to believe it and deny the bible. That my dear makes you a hypocrite.

 

[paarsurrey]

---

You are being a hypocrite.

May GodAllahYHWH bless you!
Thanks

The problem here with some of my Christian friends is that they don’t let God speak for himself. If they would have done it they would find a straight passage from the OTBible on every important issue, if Bible is a living book that answers every rational question. When they don’t get support from the Bible, they think they are wiser than God, so they try putting words into God’s mouth first for the Claim and then for the Reason which is usually not found there. One is left wondering if the Christian God is living and All-Wise or He has delegated His powers to them.