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grotto
Guest
Thank you Gov. Ivey! Alabama is looking good and the people are even better!
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Cathoholic
Guest
Economist . . .
These “zygotes” are undergoing cellular respiration, giving off heat, undergoing mitosis, have their own genetic compliment, and are distinct organisms (even if there were an “identical” twin).
That is a “living” being. It is not a “rock”, or a piece of plastic, or a sample of metal. It is living.
What kind of “being” is it?
It is not a crow. It is not a fish. And it certainly is not a “bonobo or a chimpanzee”.
It is a HUMAN person. It is a HUMAN BEING.
The next step is putting the two together.
And you can readily see this is a LIVING HUMAN BEING.
If you climbed up a cliff and into a rare California Condor’s nest and smashed the living, developing eggs, and got caught by the game warden . . . .
. . . You COULD tell the judge . . . .
. . . “Well judge. THESE weren’t REALLY California Condors. These were REALLY merely the EGGS of a California Condor!”
The judge might give you an EXTRA harsh sentence of jail time for being an unrepentant criminal and attempting to jack him around in his court.
And you would have fooled no one, least of all the judge. Not even yourself.
Why is it, that some people can see environmental issues clearly, but are blind to human issues??
Addendum: Sorry @vz71 for accidentally tagging you.
I took Economist’s quote from your post. My apologies.
@Economist. Nobody believes that. Even you don’t think that (if you thought about it).There can be no person without a functioning brain, which is able to perform the higher functions of the brain, like conceptualizing - and that is a scientific fact.
These “zygotes” are undergoing cellular respiration, giving off heat, undergoing mitosis, have their own genetic compliment, and are distinct organisms (even if there were an “identical” twin).
That is a “living” being. It is not a “rock”, or a piece of plastic, or a sample of metal. It is living.
What kind of “being” is it?
It is not a crow. It is not a fish. And it certainly is not a “bonobo or a chimpanzee”.
It is a HUMAN person. It is a HUMAN BEING.
The next step is putting the two together.
And you can readily see this is a LIVING HUMAN BEING.
If you climbed up a cliff and into a rare California Condor’s nest and smashed the living, developing eggs, and got caught by the game warden . . . .
. . . You COULD tell the judge . . . .
. . . “Well judge. THESE weren’t REALLY California Condors. These were REALLY merely the EGGS of a California Condor!”
The judge might give you an EXTRA harsh sentence of jail time for being an unrepentant criminal and attempting to jack him around in his court.
And you would have fooled no one, least of all the judge. Not even yourself.
Why is it, that some people can see environmental issues clearly, but are blind to human issues??
Addendum: Sorry @vz71 for accidentally tagging you.
I took Economist’s quote from your post. My apologies.
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Economist
Guest
Every rational person believes it. Every organ of a human can be either replaced by an artificial prosthesis or a transplant from a donor, and the person is effectively the same. Some organs may be lost permanently without replacement. The person may lose some functionality, some abilities, but that does not affect the personality. EXCEPT, one organ, the brain. That is an irrefutable fact. So without a brain you cannot have “being”.Nobody believes that.
Your example of the condor is just an example of an idiotic law. When you prepare scrambled eggs, you don’t eat a fried chicken. And you cannot convince yourself that you do.
But it is not the brain that makes a human life of such value.Every rational person believes it. Every organ of a human can be either replaced by an artificial prosthesis or a transplant from a donor, and the person is effectively the same. Some organs may be lost permanently without replacement. The person may lose some functionality, some abilities, but that does not affect the personality. EXCEPT, one organ, the brain. That is an irrefutable fact. So without a brain you cannot have “being”.
It is simply the fact of being human that makes life of the highest value.
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F_Marturana
Guest
Chicken eggs purchased in a store are not fertilized. They aren’t chicks, and won’t ever be chicks even if put in an incubator, or under a mama hen.
Also, every organ in my body is mine. When I carried my children, they were not my organs. They were separate beings.
They started off very small, my body changed to accommodate them. One of the first changes was increase in blood supply. Another was suppression of my immune system to not attack them as a foreign object. Another was an acute sense of smell. In fact I knew I was pregnant before being late, my sense of smell became very sensitive.
Also, every organ in my body is mine. When I carried my children, they were not my organs. They were separate beings.
They started off very small, my body changed to accommodate them. One of the first changes was increase in blood supply. Another was suppression of my immune system to not attack them as a foreign object. Another was an acute sense of smell. In fact I knew I was pregnant before being late, my sense of smell became very sensitive.
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midori
Guest
I see you’ve never gotten eggs from a homesteader, and a fertilized one slips into the batch for sale… I’ve been fortunate myself, but I had a houseguest make themselves eggs for breakfast, and came across two or three with dead chicks at varying stages of development.When you prepare scrambled eggs, you don’t eat a fried chicken.
I can’t remember if they just gave up and had cold cereal, or if they finally got a decent egg, but I’m sure their appetite wasn’t so great after all the dead developing chicks…
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Annie
Guest
This is an absurd argument to apply to a very young human in the womb. The reason that the very young human does not have a brain is that it is undergoing the normal process of growth of a human of that age. Guess what? At one point you did not have a brain. But now you have a brain. Where did it come from?So without a brain you cannot have “being”.
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Annie
Guest
You do realize that when a woman has an abortion, there is no egg involved?When you prepare scrambled eggs, you don’t eat a fried chicken. And you cannot convince yourself that you do.
Birds lay eggs, some of which are fertilized and contain very young baby birds.
Humans do not lay eggs-- what is called an “egg” in human physiology is an ovum, which when fertilized by a sperm, becomes a zygote, or “new organism,” according to Wikipedia.
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claudine
Guest
But the thing is that embryo is not ‘potentially’ a fish or a frog, much less a tumor.
It is solely growing into a HUMAN unless it is prevented from adhereing to its own life sustaining provider, aka, its mother.
It is solely growing into a HUMAN unless it is prevented from adhereing to its own life sustaining provider, aka, its mother.
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CradleRC58
Guest
With the exception of rape all women have the right to choose not to get pregnant. Simple… all they have to do is keep the pants on.I do speak for all those women who do not wish to be forced to become mothers against their wishes.
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claudine
Guest
Amen. In this respect I am definately Pro Choice!
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Economist
Guest
It is the brain that makes someone a human being. Especially a human PERSON. Removing even a relatively small part of the brain - lobotomy - removes the personality.But it is not the brain that makes a human life of such value.
Have you heard about the RH-problem? The body recognizes the embryo as an intruder, and tries to eliminate it. Especially the male embryos.Another was suppression of my immune system to not attack them as a foreign object.
Of course I had such an experience. The yolk had a small red dot on it but it still was an egg and NOT a chicken.I see you’ve never gotten eggs from a homesteader, and a fertilized one slips into the batch for sale…
It is absurd to deny it. The point is that at that age we do speak of a human being, (zygote, blastocyst) much less a human PERSON. Every organ in the body can either be removed or substituted with a natural transplant or an artificial prosthesis, EXCEPT the brain. We are literally our mind, the product of the brain.This is an absurd argument to apply to a very human in the womb.
Actually, if you would argue that abortion should be eliminated after the brain’s activity starts, you would have the agreement of most pro-choicers. Definitely mine.
Not your commandment to make.Simple… all they have to do is keep the pants on.
Personality perhaps, but it doesn’t remove the worth of human life.It is the brain that makes someone a human being. Especially a human PERSON. Removing even a relatively small part of the brain - lobotomy - removes the personality.
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ThinkingSapien
Guest
I’ve experience that more than once. In my case the eggs came from a nation wide retailer. I’m okay eating eggs, but I’m not touching embryonic and fetal chickens. There is a science museum in San Francisco in which they had on display a chicken egg that had been carefully had its shell removed so you could see what was happening. You could see where blood vessels had formed and a pulsating section that was forming into a heart.I see you’ve never gotten eggs from a homesteader, and a fertilized one slips into the batch for sale…
I don’t know why, but photographs of unborn developing beings (humans and otherwise) is a little disturbing to me. It might just be from the skin still being a bit transparent at many stages. I made the mistake of walking into an area in “The Bodies Exhibit” and they had on display human fetuses at various stages of development. The display signage said they had died of natural causes. But after finding out all the bodies came from China have to question claim.
I understand.It is absurd to deny it. The point is that at that age we do speak of a human being, (zygote, blastocyst) much less a human PERSON.
You wish to push inaccurate vocabulary upon the issue. It is much easier to justify immoral acts when we can fool ourselves.
“Personhood” is not the issue. It is not even a real word.
The issue is actual human life.
From the moment of conception, it is a human life. Human life is of the highest value and must be protected.
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midori
Guest
Louisiana has its own heatbeat bill, which is moving in the right direction… Texas is just sitting on a rock, staring into space. (OK, technically, they had a bill last month, where they made it a death penalty crime [ie, the same penalty as murder], and they allowed it to die in committee.)
A proposal to ban abortions in Louisiana as early as the sixth week of pregnancy continued to speed through the state legislature Wednesday, the same day Alabama’s governor signed the nation’s most restrictive law against the procedure.
Without objection, the Louisiana House Health and Welfare Committee backed legislation to prohibit abortions when a fetal heartbeat is detected, similar to laws passed in several conservative states that are aimed at challenging the U.S. Supreme Court’s 1973 decision that legalized abortion. Louisiana’s ban, however, only would take effect if a federal appeals court upholds a similar law in Mississippi.
Louisiana’s so-called fetal “heartbeat bill” is sponsored by state Sen. John Milkovich, one of several measures that lawmakers are advancing to add new restrictions on abortion. Senators already have supported the bill, which will next receive full House consideration, one step from final passage. Democratic Gov. John Bel Edwards has indicated he will sign the measure if it reaches his desk.
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ThinkingSapien
Guest
The word “personhood” offers much opportunity for people to be on different pages about something. It can refer to being human. It can refer to having certain traits such as being self aware, being able to mentally frame the world and make plans based on that framing. It can refer to someone having these qualities and it can refer to their potential to develop them. (Note that under this usage there can be non-human persons)“Personhood” is not the issue. It is not even a real word.
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Right…The word “personhood” offers much opportunity for people to be on different pages about something. It can refer to being human. It can refer to having certain traits such as being self aware, being able to mentally frame the world and make plans based on that framing. It can refer to someone having these qualities and it can refer to their potential to develop them. (Note that under this usage there can be non-human persons)
Meaningless. Words are supposed to mean things. But in this case it apparently is a deliberate meaningless.
That way we can fool ourselves into thinking we have some high minded ideal when actually we have a corrupt moral outlook.
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midori
Guest
Personhood is usually a legal concept, which says, “This is now an entity that is recognized by law as having the rights and duties of a human being.” Which is why you can have human beings without the rights and protections of being human-- like the unborn-- or you can have ideas that have the rights and protections of being human-- such as corporations-- without actually being alive.
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ThinkingSapien
Guest
People assign meanings to words and these meanings change over time. Outside of onomatopoeia words don’t have intrinsic meanings. It’s possible to play semantic games to confuse an issue, but the debate over personhood has been a topic in western philosophy and law since well before abortion was an issue.Meaningless. Words are supposed to mean things.
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