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_Ruby
Guest
Also very worth noting that in 2017, the rules were changed so that women from Northern Ireland traveling to the rest of the UK for an abortion, were able to get one free of charge on the NHS, whereas previously they had to make and fund their own arrangements. So whilst it remains illegal under most circumstances on NI soil, all other barriers have been removed as much as possible.
861 women from NI opted to do this in 2017, with a 38% and 58% increase in number for the final two quarters of 2017 (after the funding announcement) compared to 2016.
I personally can see something very similar being offered by other providers in the USA as a sympathy move if the Alabama decision holds.
861 women from NI opted to do this in 2017, with a 38% and 58% increase in number for the final two quarters of 2017 (after the funding announcement) compared to 2016.
I personally can see something very similar being offered by other providers in the USA as a sympathy move if the Alabama decision holds.
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We know there are several steps in the process.
You fail to understand the point.
From the very moment of conception, it is a human life. It deserves every protection we can provide.
They are only equal in that they are both human life.
No one has tried to make the claim that a zygote is an infant. We only make the claim that they are both human life.
By claiming things are said that have not been, it is you that are trying to obfuscate.
It may.
But they are both human life.
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Economist
Guest
It is your call. And you think incorrectly. To call a detailed argument (made in good faith!) touching the different aspects of the question (biological and philosophical) to be “mere semantics” shows that you are not interested in an honest discussion using proper, precise terms.
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Annie
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I don’t doubt your sincerity, Economist.
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JimG
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If a zygote is a potential blastocyst, which is a potential embryo, which is a potential fetus, which is a potential infant, then an infant is a potential toddler, and a toddler is a potential pre-schooler, which is a potential middle schooler, which is a potential adolescent, which is a potential adult. The potentiality continues for a lifetime. An adult is a potential senior citizen, which is a potential elderly human, who is potentiality deceased.
But there is one point at which a new and distinct individual of the human species comes into existence, and that is at fertilization of the egg by the sperm. That begins all the development. The new and unique individual remains the same distinct human individual with the same genetics from conception to death. All the intervals in between are stages of development of one human individual. Human individuals do have a beginning. I know of one author who recommends reading aloud to children, beginning before birth.
But there is one point at which a new and distinct individual of the human species comes into existence, and that is at fertilization of the egg by the sperm. That begins all the development. The new and unique individual remains the same distinct human individual with the same genetics from conception to death. All the intervals in between are stages of development of one human individual. Human individuals do have a beginning. I know of one author who recommends reading aloud to children, beginning before birth.
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grotto
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Wow! I failed to learn that Ireland voted for abortion on demand! You said you think they may be the only country in the world to vote that way. That has to be due to the financial campaign that was waged with the filthy money from Planned Parenthood, George Soros, other butchers.
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Economist
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Pretty accurate, though not complete. I gave a few pointers, which must be considered. You bypassed them.
This would be true for any species.
The question is “what makes that individual a human”? I gave a detailed analysis, and so far no response was given.
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Economist
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What do you doubt then? I gave a long response attempting to touch on all the details - both biological and philosophical. You asserted that I engaged in mere semantics. That is somewhat insulting. Any and all substantive criticism would be welcome. But a bare declaration of “semantics” is not sufficient. Of course you are under no obligation to respond.
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JimG
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What makes a human individual a human being is that it is a distinct and unique individual of the human species.
An individual member of the canine species is a dog. An individual member of the feline species is a cat. An individual member of the human species is a human being.
An individual member of the canine species is a dog. An individual member of the feline species is a cat. An individual member of the human species is a human being.
That is because it is simply an attempt to obfuscate.
We know when human life begins, and we know it is of immeasurable value.
You have been told this many times, but either cannot or will not address it.
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Economist
Guest
Precision is not obfuscation. It is the exact opposite.
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Annie
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Economist, I know you put a lot of thought and work into your posts.
The reason we disagree with you, or at least I, is that you are attributing different
(Oops, this posted itself before I was finished
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The reason we disagree with you, or at least I, is that you are attributing different
(Oops, this posted itself before I was finished
)
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Annie
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Argh! I lost the follow-up post! It was long and it was perfect…
And now will have to wait until tomorrow as it is too late for me to start over.
And now will have to wait until tomorrow as it is too late for me to start over.
From conception, we have a unique and valuable, human life.
There is no amount of precision to be brought in that can remove this quality.
The fact that your ‘precision’ attempts to remove this quality tells me that it is not precise at all. This ‘precision’ really is an attempt to hide the truth.
This is obfuscation.
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Economist
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I will wait.
I have many faults, but being impatient is not one of them.
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Annie
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Oh, good, impatience is a tough one so you are fortunate
Anyway, the problem with all your beautifully structured arguments, as I see it, is that they seem to ignore the fact that they are talking about one thing.
The words you use: zygote, blastocyst, embryo, fetus… all of these are just words describing the stages the one single entity goes through, just as baby, toddler, tween, and senior describe stages the exact same entity goes through if the entity survives all the previous stages.
It’s not like there is some thing called a zygote; zygote describes a stage of development of a single entity which will go through many such stages.
Take me for example. 60+ years ago, I was at the stage of being a zygote, and that which is called a zygote at that point was me. That zygote grew until it entered the stage where it is called a blastocyst, but remained me, and I was called a blastocyst. The process repeated through all the stages we have named, and I was myself during all of them.
I have gone through a number of stages: zygote, blastocyst, embryo, fetus, baby, toddler, child, tween, teen, young adult, adult, middle-aged, and now, well, AARP informs me I am eligible to join, so I guess I am a senior
I came into existence when… when… when the stork picked up its carry bag and deposited me in a cabbage patch. (I know it’s different for other people, but that’s what my mother told me, and I am sticking to it!!!)
(I should have thought through this example a little more…)
Two things came together, melded, and became one thing. That one thing went through the normal process each of the members of that species goes through until the process is interrupted, which causes death.
Two things came together, melded, and became one thing. That one thing went through the normal process each of the members of that species goes through and throughout that process, it was the same one thing, me.
(continued below)
Anyway, the problem with all your beautifully structured arguments, as I see it, is that they seem to ignore the fact that they are talking about one thing.
The words you use: zygote, blastocyst, embryo, fetus… all of these are just words describing the stages the one single entity goes through, just as baby, toddler, tween, and senior describe stages the exact same entity goes through if the entity survives all the previous stages.
It’s not like there is some thing called a zygote; zygote describes a stage of development of a single entity which will go through many such stages.
Take me for example. 60+ years ago, I was at the stage of being a zygote, and that which is called a zygote at that point was me. That zygote grew until it entered the stage where it is called a blastocyst, but remained me, and I was called a blastocyst. The process repeated through all the stages we have named, and I was myself during all of them.
I have gone through a number of stages: zygote, blastocyst, embryo, fetus, baby, toddler, child, tween, teen, young adult, adult, middle-aged, and now, well, AARP informs me I am eligible to join, so I guess I am a senior
I came into existence when… when… when the stork picked up its carry bag and deposited me in a cabbage patch. (I know it’s different for other people, but that’s what my mother told me, and I am sticking to it!!!)
(I should have thought through this example a little more…)
Two things came together, melded, and became one thing. That one thing went through the normal process each of the members of that species goes through until the process is interrupted, which causes death.
Two things came together, melded, and became one thing. That one thing went through the normal process each of the members of that species goes through and throughout that process, it was the same one thing, me.
(continued below)
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Annie
Guest
(continued from above)
When we define human beings as having sentience (in the sense which differentiates us from other animals), we are not describing each and every individual human being. We are describing a quality of the species.
We say that dogs are four-legged mammals which… that does not exclude a dog which has only 3 legs from being considered a dog, does it?
When we describe qualities of species, the lack of a particular quality does not exclude members of the species, and most certainly a lack because of the age of the member, occurring completely normally to every member of the species, should not suddenly render the entity a non-member of the species!
When I was a zygote, I did not have a heartbeat. I didn’t have a heart to beat. That was because I had not yet grown a heart, and and that lack is a completely normal feature of the species. However, I was alive: I was growing.
I was not alive before the stork picked me up. But I came into existence when two separate things came together and fused into one thing, a different thing, a thing which was growing. Had the stork had an accident on the way to Mom’s cabbage patch, I would have died, I would have stopped growing and that force which keeps me alive would have left, stopped operating, or whatever happens when living entities die.
So my argument with your argument is that your argument ignores the difference between a stage of growth and the thing which is growing through all those stages. From the moment the gametes unite and begin the process which resulted, in one case in me, there is life. A single, living, separate entity comes into existence and continues through the normal stages of life until it meets its death.
When we define human beings as having sentience (in the sense which differentiates us from other animals), we are not describing each and every individual human being. We are describing a quality of the species.
We say that dogs are four-legged mammals which… that does not exclude a dog which has only 3 legs from being considered a dog, does it?
When we describe qualities of species, the lack of a particular quality does not exclude members of the species, and most certainly a lack because of the age of the member, occurring completely normally to every member of the species, should not suddenly render the entity a non-member of the species!
When I was a zygote, I did not have a heartbeat. I didn’t have a heart to beat. That was because I had not yet grown a heart, and and that lack is a completely normal feature of the species. However, I was alive: I was growing.
I was not alive before the stork picked me up. But I came into existence when two separate things came together and fused into one thing, a different thing, a thing which was growing. Had the stork had an accident on the way to Mom’s cabbage patch, I would have died, I would have stopped growing and that force which keeps me alive would have left, stopped operating, or whatever happens when living entities die.
So my argument with your argument is that your argument ignores the difference between a stage of growth and the thing which is growing through all those stages. From the moment the gametes unite and begin the process which resulted, in one case in me, there is life. A single, living, separate entity comes into existence and continues through the normal stages of life until it meets its death.
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