(Alberta) Abolish Catholic school districts, former education minister urges

[cycleman]

cbc.ca/news/canada/edmonton/abolish-catholic-school-districts-former-education-minister-urges-1.3412307

From the article

The growing rift between Catholic school trustees and the province over guidelines supporting LGBTQ students has former education minister Dave King renewing his call to end the separate school system in Alberta.

“This current conflict just makes clear that there are all kinds of problematic outcomes that result from us continuing separate school education,” he told Edmonton AM’s Mark Connolly. “It isn’t necessary.”

It is important to understand what is meant by abolition of Catholic school districts in the Alberta context. Alberta is one of only three provinces that still have a fully government funded Catholic school system running alongside the public school system. Both are run by elected school boards, and receive identical per student funding.

Abolition of the “Catholic system” would not result in the abolition of Catholic schools. They would be turned into either private or charter schools. Private and charter schools still receive government funding at approximately 60% of the public/Catholic rate. All other faith based schools in the province operate and are funded in this way.

The preferential funding of Catholic schools over other faith based schools is simply wrong. It is a holdover from the days of Confederation where the population was overwhelmingly Protestant or Catholic. It does not reflect the cultural and religious diversity that is Canada today.

This is something that our previous provincial Conservative governments haven’t been willing to tackle, but we have a new much more progressive provincial government (I mean that as a complement, not as a pejorative as it usually characterized on CAF) and it’s possible that Alberta could be the next province to abolish the parallel Catholic school system, and put Catholics schools on the same footing as all other faith based schools

 

[ProdigalSun]

cbc.ca/news/canada/edmonton/abolish-catholic-school-districts-former-education-minister-urges-1.3412307

From the article

It is important to understand what is meant by abolition of Catholic school districts in the Alberta context. Alberta is one of only three provinces that still have a fully government funded Catholic school system running alongside the public school system. Both are run by elected school boards, and receive identical per student funding.

Abolition of the “Catholic system” would not result in the abolition of Catholic schools. They would be turned into either private or charter schools. Private and charter schools still receive government funding at approximately 60% of the public/Catholic rate. All other faith based schools in the province operate and are funded in this way.

The preferential funding of Catholic schools over other faith based schools is simply wrong. It is a holdover from the days of Confederation where the population was overwhelmingly Protestant or Catholic. It does not reflect the cultural and religious diversity that is Canada today.

This is something that our previous provincial Conservative governments haven’t been willing to tackle, but we have a new much more progressive provincial government (I mean that as a complement, not as a pejorative as it usually characterized on CAF) and it’s possible that Alberta could be the next province to abolish the parallel Catholic school system, and put Catholics schools on the same footing as all other faith based schools

You do realize the parents who send their children to Catholic schools also pay taxes right. As a matter of fact I choose on my tax form that my tax money is to be directed to the catholic system.

This NDP govt was not voted in rather the Conservatives were voted out. In 3 years we will have another election and these bums will be out on their ear. I’m sure we can hold out going through the courts until then.

After all there has been a recent supreme court ruling that has declared that religious schools can push our own agenda and teach how we want to teach.

NDP doesn’t stand a chance!

 

[schoolteacher68]

I am a Catholic school teacher in Ontario and we too face the same dilemma almost every election (whether is be provincial or federal)…the idea that $1B will be saved by closing down Catholic schools is untrue…in an email our board recently received from our Director of Education:

The Reality: Education funding in Ontario is per-pupil based. This is the driver of costs and would not change under an amalgamated model. The only way to save money through amalgamation would be to close SEVERAL HUNDRED schools in Ontario.

· The Reality: If schools were amalgamated and hundreds of schools closed, all Ontario students (across all systems) would be displaced. There is no indication that public school supporters would be prepared to move their children from the local public school in order to accommodate children living closer to a Catholic school or vice versa. There would be disruption and chaos in every community across this province.

•The Reality: The cost of amalgamation would far out-strip any savings. The last amalgamation in the education sector happened in 1998 and resulted in the province spending $1.2 billion in additional “transition” costs for that amalgamation (SOURCE: Ministry of Education).

•The Reality: Recent research from the University of Western Ontario (Timothy Cobban, 2014) shows that amalgamation does not save money.

•The Reality: Catholic and public boards save taxpayers millions of dollars annually through a variety of successful business partnerships in such areas as: co-operative school financing; purchasing; transportation; energy management and other shared services.

I believe wholeheartedly in the Catholic school system…in Ontario at least, our boards surpass the public board on our standardized testing every year in grades 3 & 6 (reading, writing and math)…we follow a Christ centered teaching, which by the way was actually copied not many years ago by the public system and they published it under a new “subject” (memory fails me right now but if I find it, I will update this post) that centers on “moral responsibility”…funny how we’re the bad guys, but yet they copy us…hmmmm

As the other poster mentioned, Catholic school supporters direct the education portion of their property taxes to Catholic schools, so if we weren’t popular or in demand, why do so many families choose to do so?..personally, I volunteered in a public school and even did a placement in a private school and I much prefer the Catholic schools for many reasons…the fact that we can actually have a Christmas tree (not a holiday tree) and celebrate things like Easter, Lent, Ash Wednesday, Advent etc. I believe help to foster a better understanding and appreciation of our faith

 

[cycleman]

You do realize the parents who send their children to Catholic schools also pay taxes right. As a matter of fact I choose on my tax form that my tax money is to be directed to the catholic system.

This NDP govt was not voted in rather the Conservatives were voted out. In 3 years we will have another election and these bums will be out on their ear. I’m sure we can hold out going through the courts until then.

After all there has been a recent supreme court ruling that has declared that religious schools can push our own agenda and teach how we want to teach.

NDP doesn’t stand a chance!

The total amount of a Catholic’s education property tax would still be directed to Catholic private or charter schools. Education property taxes only account for 32% of education funding, the rest comes from general revenues. Your property tax doesn’t come close to funding the full cost of education. Even at 60% funding, a Catholic charter school would receive as much again from the general public purse as they contribute in school taxes.

But, the more fundamental question is why should a Catholic faith based school receive more funding from the public purse than any other faith based school?

Some funding information in attachment

 

[cycleman]

After all there has been a recent supreme court ruling that has declared that religious schools can push our own agenda and teach how we want to teach.

I assume you are referring to Loyola High School v Quebec. It should be noted that Loyola is (and always was as far as I know) a private school with no government funding.

 

[OraLabora]

I assume you are referring to Loyola High School v Quebec. It should be noted that Loyola is (and always was as far as I know) a private school with no government funding.

Correction: private schools in Quebec do receive government funding (but obviously not at the same level as public schools). To do so they have to accept the Quebec curriculum but with of course the latitude to teach religious ed., something banned in public schools now. So Jewish private schools can teach Judaism, Catholic private schools can teach Catholicism, etc.

Current funding rate for private schools in Quebec is about 40% of the per pupil funding of public schools. To be funded, private schools must be accredited and use certified teachers.

Loyola does receive public funding, see p. 13 of their strategic plan:

loyola.ca/images/articlemedia/discover/LHS_strat_plan_web.pdf

In 2013 42% of their funding was from the government.

 

[cycleman]

Correction: private schools in Quebec do receive government funding (but obviously not at the same level as public schools). To do so they have to accept the Quebec curriculum but with of course the latitude to teach religious ed., something banned in public schools now. So Jewish private schools can teach Judaism, Catholic private schools can teach Catholicism, etc.

Current funding rate for private schools in Quebec is about 40% of the per pupil funding of public schools. To be funded, private schools must be accredited and use certified teachers.

Loyola does receive public funding, see p. 13 of their strategic plan:

loyola.ca/images/articlemedia/discover/LHS_strat_plan_web.pdf

In 2013 42% of their funding was from the government.

It sounds like Quebec has got a fair system whereby the public purse does partially support private schools, but the single public system is funded preferentially.

Most importantly, it appears that all faith based private schools receive more or less the same funding, which is the way it should be.

If Alberta abolishes the fully funded separate school boards and dioceses/parishes/non profits create private Catholic schools, these would be funded at 60 percent (some schools can go up to 70 percent) of the public rate. That’s pretty good (better funding than Quebec) ***and most importantly it treats all faiths equally. ***

 

[Vim71]

I believe wholeheartedly in the Catholic school system…in Ontario at least, our boards surpass the public board on our standardized testing every year in grades 3 & 6 (reading, writing and math)…we follow a Christ centered teaching,

As someone who attended school in Ontario (in two different cities), that wasn’t my experience. I went to both Catholic and Public schools while I was attending highschool, there was no difference what so ever aside from wearing Uniforms in the Catholic school. The Catholic school board (at least here) is Catholic in name only. Both schools pushed Abortion, the pill and Condoms. The Catholic school made sure to openly push support for Gay Marriage to show how “progressive” they were.

I guess you must be in a place in Ontario where they have a good Catholic school system, because the one here is a terrible system.

 

[abucs]

The Progressive agenda of taking everyone’s taxes but favouring secular education spending is unjust, like most of Progressivism.

 

[Peter_Plato]

It sounds like Quebec has got a fair system whereby the public purse does partially support private schools, but the single public system is funded preferentially.

Most importantly, it appears that all faith based private schools receive more or less the same funding, which is the way it should be.

If Alberta abolishes the fully funded separate school boards and dioceses/parishes/non profits create private Catholic schools, these would be funded at 60 percent (some schools can go up to 70 percent) of the public rate. That’s pretty good (better funding than Quebec) ***and most importantly it treats all faiths equally. ***

No it doesn’t. It treats ‘no faith’ preferentially by having the government fund what amounts to secular atheism under the guise of neutrality. If real “fairness” was your goal then every school would be funded at 100% equally across the board since those of any faith have as much interest in seeing their children educated as anyone else and these people pay taxes equivalent to those paid by secular humanists.

Funding schools at 60% is essentially treating students at those schools as second class citizens with only a partial right to equal education. Parents choosing an educational plan, model or philosophy should in no way penalize those students, providing the requirements of the curriculum are being met.

What I find interesting is that this issue arose because of an attempt to “include” a transgender student (<0.3% of population) by requiring massive changes to the educational system which will now potentially disenfranchise approximately one million Catholics in the province. This must be the new and improved PC term for “justice.” Who cares about a million people where political correctness is at stake?

 

[Peter_Plato]

As someone who attended school in Ontario (in two different cities), that wasn’t my experience. I went to both Catholic and Public schools while I was attending highschool, there was no difference what so ever aside from wearing Uniforms in the Catholic school. The Catholic school board (at least here) is Catholic in name only. Both schools pushed Abortion, the pill and Condoms. The Catholic school made sure to openly push support for Gay Marriage to show how “progressive” they were.

I guess you must be in a place in Ontario where they have a good Catholic school system, because the one here is a terrible system.

Well, as long as the Catholic schools are "separate,’ there is at least the potential for influence by Catholic teaching and practice. Once they are amalgamated, that potential is pretty much gone.

In the words of the Joni Mitchell song, “… you don’t know what you’ve got 'til it’s gone.”

youtu.be/Tr__rRGWVgI

 

[Peter_Plato]

The total amount of a Catholic’s education property tax would still be directed to Catholic private or charter schools. Education property taxes only account for 32% of education funding, the rest comes from general revenues. Your property tax doesn’t come close to funding the full cost of education. Even at 60% funding, a Catholic charter school would receive as much again from the general public purse as they contribute in school taxes.

Well, this is a bit misleading since all of the education funding comes from taxes of some sort. Even if only 32% of education funding comes from property taxes paid by Catholic property owners, the same would be true of every taxpayer whose children are enrolled in public schools. Only about 32% of anyone’s education costs would be funded by property taxes.

So what?

Catholic taxpayers fully pay their share of all provincial taxes, therefore there is no reason not to consider the general tax base that funds the remaining education costs as having proportionately come from Catholics as well. Which means it is Catholic taxes that essentially pay for the education of Catholics.

It is essentially a lie to claim otherwise.

It ISN’T true, therefore, that “at 60% funding, a Catholic charter school would receive as much again from the general public purse as they contribute” fully in taxes. In fact, if funded at only 60% Catholic taxpayers would effectively be subsidizing public schools to the tune of the 40% being absconded from them and put into public education, if, indeed, that is where the money would go. My bet – knowing the state of Alberta politics right now – such a ploy would be to cut expenditures for education by reducing the budget for Separate School Boards by saving the government 40% of the costs. A move which would effectively sound the death knell for Catholic schools because many parents likely couldn’t afford to pony up the additional 40% required to run a private school.

You sound like someone with an agenda.

 

[cycleman]

Well, this is a bit misleading since all of the education funding comes from taxes of some sort. Even if only 32% of education funding comes from property taxes paid by Catholic property owners, the same would be true of every taxpayer whose children are enrolled in public schools. Only about 32% of anyone’s education costs would be funded by property taxes.

So what?

Catholic taxpayers fully pay their share of all provincial taxes, therefore there is no reason not to consider the general tax base that funds the remaining education costs as having proportionately come from Catholics as well. Which means it is Catholic taxes that essentially pay for the education of Catholics.

It is essentially a lie to claim otherwise.

It ISN’T true, therefore, that “at 60% funding, a Catholic charter school would receive as much again from the general public purse as they contribute” fully in taxes. In fact, if funded at only 60% Catholic taxpayers would effectively be subsidizing public schools to the tune of the 40% being absconded from them and put into public education, if, indeed, that is where the money would go. My bet – knowing the state of Alberta politics right now – such a ploy would be to cut expenditures for education by reducing the budget for Separate School Boards by saving the government 40% of the costs. A move which would effectively sound the death knell for Catholic schools because many parents likely couldn’t afford to pony up the additional 40% required to run a private school.

You sound like someone with an agenda.

My comment regarding the 32% was in reference to the previous poster that said he/she directed his/her taxes to the Catholic system. My point was simply that such an amount only paid for 32% of the education budget. Of course Catholics pay into the general tax revenue stream as well, and their taxes are funding the Catholic system

My issue is that Catholic schools are treated preferentially vis a vis other faith schools. If you are evangelical Protestant, Jewish, Muslim or whatever and choose to not send your child to the public school, the system asks you to pay 40% of the cost. All I am saying is Catholics should do the same.

 

[Peter_Plato]

My comment regarding the 32% was in reference to the previous poster that said he/she directed his/her taxes to the Catholic system. My point was simply that such an amount only paid for 32% of the education budget. Of course Catholics pay into the general tax revenue stream as well, and their taxes are funding the Catholic system

My issue is that Catholic schools are treated preferentially vis a vis other faith schools. If you are evangelical Protestant, Jewish, Muslim or whatever and choose to not send your child to the public school, the system asks you to pay 40% of the cost. All I am saying is Catholics should do the same.

Perhaps the “preferential” treatment is because the number of Catholics makes separate school districts viable. When Jewish, Muslim or evangelical Protestants make up 25 to 50% of the population, then there might be good reasons to make the case you are attempting.

I am aware of two Christian schools that operate in one Alberta city under the auspices of the public school district but receive full provincial funding even though their mandates are specifically “Christian” education. Where the numbers warrant, the “system” should not "ask you to pay 40%” of the cost – unless the numbers make it unfeasible to the tune of 40%, otherwise the “system” is merely being punitive.

 

[Peter_Plato]

But, the more fundamental question is why should a Catholic faith based school receive more funding from the public purse than any other faith based school?

So, to answer this question…

There is no reason why any faith-based school should not receive 100% of funding from the public purse where the numbers warrant and make such a school feasible. The problem is that there are no comparable faith-based groups that can support the numbers in local areas to make faith-based schools feasible.

Either that, or those faith-based groups have not shown the inclination to begin their own schools since public education, up to now, has met their needs. However, as the general moral climate of society declines, I wouldn’t be surprised if some of those groups begin to show some determination.

As I stated in a prior post, there are two loosely “faith-based” schools (three actually,) that I am aware of, in a southern Alberta city that currently receive full funding but operate under the auspices of the local public district.

 

[cycleman]

As I stated in a prior post, there are two loosely “faith-based” schools (three actually,) that I am aware of, in a southern Alberta city that currently receive full funding but operate under the auspices of the local public district.

Actually, there are more than three, but most of them are in the city of Calgary but are attached to a rural southern Alberta school board.

The Palliser school board is a public school board in rural Alberta whose original mandate was public education in southern Alberta. Palliser, so the story goes, was facing declining enrollment and decided let’s invite anyone and everyone to join us. More students=more money.

The created a ‘faith based division’ if you want to call it that, and signed up seven faith based schools, six of which are in Calgary (not their geographical area) who now receive full funding.

They are Calgary Christian School, Heritage Christian Academy, Master’s Academy and College, Menno Simons Christian School, Trinity Christian School, and the Calgary Islamic School. Only one school, Brant Christian School is in their geographic territory.

I’m not sure why the government allowed these 7 non Catholic faith based schools to have preferential (100%) funding vs the far greater number of faith based schools which must operate as charter schools. It’s just as unfair as the Catholics getting full funding.

Perhaps you see this as desirable, I see it as inequitable.

I want to see

1. A single secular public school system fully funded by taxpayers.
2. Charter and private schools (including any faith based school) should certainly be permitted, but all these alternative schools should be funded on a consistent basis.

 

[abucs]

Having different funding rates between your 1) and your 2) is what is inequitable.

 

[Peter_Plato]

Perhaps you see this as desirable, I see it as inequitable.

I want to see

1. A single secular public school system fully funded by taxpayers.
2. Charter and private schools (including any faith based school) should certainly be permitted, but all these alternative schools should be funded on a consistent basis.

Well, the problem (for you) is that you are not the determiner or what is or is not just or equitable. The fact that you think making some citizens pay a premium of 40% for the education of their children, merely because they hold a faith belief says something of your sense of equity.

As far as I am concerned justice would involve treating like instances alike as far as possible. Permitting a quarter of the population of Alberta to have their own school districts based upon foundational moral and religious beliefs would seem entirely just and equitable. Just as permitting any faith community with requisite numbers in a certain locale to do so – without suffering a 40% penalty for educating their children – would also be consistent, fair, just and equitable.

 

[cycleman]

Having different funding rates between your 1) and your 2) is what is inequitable.

Well, the problem (for you) is that you are not the determiner or what is or is not just or equitable. The fact that you think making some citizens pay a premium of 40% for the education of their children, merely because they hold a faith belief says something of your sense of equity.

As far as I am concerned justice would involve treating like instances alike as far as possible. Permitting a quarter of the population of Alberta to have their own school districts based upon foundational moral and religious beliefs would seem entirely just and equitable. Just as permitting any faith community with requisite numbers in a certain locale to do so – without suffering a 40% penalty for educating their children – would also be consistent, fair, just and equitable.

No, it is entirely equitable. Everyone has access to the fully funded public system.

If you choose to go outside the public system, you will need to pay part of the cost.

Compare this to the way I think it works in the US, although if it isn’t this way please correct me. There is one public school system period. If Catholics want a faith based school, the diocese or whoever runs it, charges tuition, and gets no money from the government. You pay your taxes and you have the right to send your kid to the public school. If you choose to not use that system, you get no benefit from from the taxes you pay.

In Alberta, if you choose to go outside the public system the government will still partially fund your charter/private school, meaning you still get some of the benefit of your taxes.

 

[Peter_Plato]

No, it is entirely equitable. Everyone has access to the fully funded public system.

If you choose to go outside the public system, you will need to pay part of the cost.

Compare this to the way I think it works in the US, although if it isn’t this way please correct me. There is one public school system period. If Catholics want a faith based school, the diocese or whoever runs it, charges tuition, and gets no money from the government. You pay your taxes and you have the right to send your kid to the public school. If you choose to not use that system, you get no benefit from from the taxes you pay.

In Alberta, if you choose to go outside the public system the government will still partially fund your charter/private school, meaning you still get some of the benefit of your taxes.

I am only interested in comparables where those are as equitable or more equitable than the situation in Alberta. There is no justifiable reason not to continue funding separate boards at 100% in Alberta since the system works just fine, the purported “savings” will be negligible and the cost of disruption onerous.

Considering no one is choosing to “go” out of anything, it seems entirely punitive to begin forcing a sizable portion of the population out of what is already in place, given that there is no good financial reason to do so.

As I said, you may disagree, but you do not make up 25% of the Alberta electorate, nor do you pay 25% of the taxes.

By the way, out of sheer interest, how long have you lived in Alberta and paid taxes there, that you so want your view of things to be enshrined in the law?

This seems political intimidation at its worst: ”See things our way on social issues or face heavy penalties on you and your children.”