Alcohol at church functions - ok or not?

[nickybr38]

Not sure if this is the right forum to address this question but it’s not specifically a Catholic question, it’s more a Christian question.

A very distraught Luthern friend of mine came to me with a question that I wasn’t sure how to answer.

I’ll sum up her question and then expound upon it in a later paragraph. Basically the question is; Is it appropriate for alcohol to be served at a church function?

Now, the reason for the question. Her church rented a campground for the weekend so that the congregation could get together for fellowship. It was supposed to be a fun weekend for the congregation. Almost immediately upon her arrival she noticed that alcohol was being served. As far as she could tell several members of the congregation were drunk.

She immediately retreated to her own tent and stayed away from everyone for the weekend because she was uncomfortable being around drunkenness and more importantly alcohol in general. Another member who is a struggling alcoholic stayed with her because he too was not comfortable being around alcohol.

Had they known alcohol would be served they wouldn’t have gone but they never imagined a church function would feature liquor. The fellow she stayed with is not a christian, he is just exploring christianity and he was quite scandalized by the whole thing. His comment was: Aren’t these christians? Why are they drinking?

At the end of the weekend she spoke to a few people to express her disappointment and was immediately shot down. Apparently the congregation felt that they shouldn’t have to pretend to be something they’re not just because they’re at a church function and everyone was claiming that no one was drunk.

I’m not sure what to say to her or what advice to offer. Personally I feel it’s inappropriate to be serving alcohol at a church function. It is a situation that could cause scandal. Sure, they know they’re not drunk but those around them may not think so. Unless it’s a wedding or an occasion that calls for celebration I just don’t see the need for alcohol. For now I advised her to take the situation to her pastor and to trust him to handle it.

However, I’m curious to know what you think. Is it okay for alcohol to be served at a church function? Why or why not?

 

[puzzleannie]

Not
I’ll sum up her question and then expound upon it in a later paragraph. Basically the question is; Is it appropriate for alcohol to be served at a church function?

?

yes if they adhere to local civil law regulations. Since there is no prohibition in the 10 commandments or Church law against moderate use of alcohol, there can be no wrongdoing when it is served at a church function–beer tent at the parish festival, wine at a parish dinner etc.

It is a huge leap from “is it appropriate to serve alcohol” to “is it appropriate to get drunk or to allow one individual to imbibe enough to get drunk” at a church function. The latter is wrong in all circumstances, and if they let the guy get in a car in that condition they could face a legal liability as well.

 

[Stylites]

If the church event were primarily socializing and fellowship then I see no problem with consuming alcohol, at least for Catholics. Maybe Lutherans have a different understanding, as there’s the puritan idea that even being near something which can harm one is sinful.

 

[nickybr38]

If the church event were primarily socializing and fellowship then I see no problem with consuming alcohol, at least for Catholics. Maybe Lutherans have a different understanding, as there’s the puritan idea that even being near something which can harm one is sinful.

That was my understanding of what the Catholic church teaches. From what I understand her church teaches that alcohol is sinful period.

 

[Rawb]

There’s a bar in our parish hall. If a parishoner is celebrating something in their life - an anniversary, a child’s college graduation, and often on the days of the memorials for the dead there are shots of brandy. At our celebrations of Pascha and Nativity there’s always alcohol lubricating the voices singing. There were bottles and bottles of booze available at our Festival a few weeks ago.

All, of course, AFTER Liturgy.

S’not a big deal to me. We’re not puritans who have to fear everything. If you’re drunk that’s an issue and Father would speak to you about it, but if you’re enjoying something legal in moderation, what’s the harm? We also smoke sometimes. We eat trans fats!

 

[FromTheAshes777]

I never knew Lutherans had any notion of thinking that alcohol consumption was “non-Christian”. I believe Martin Luther was an enjoyer of German beer was he not?

Anyhow I agree, getting drunk is always problematic, and also condemned as sinful in Scripture, and by every denomination and tradition that I know of.

An absolute ban on any consumption of alcohol whatsoever is not scriptural at all, and is a relatively new phenomenon when we look at church history. To automatically assume that “real Christians don’t drink” is like assuming, “real Christians don’t eat fatty foods”. Moderation is the key.

As far as a church social event I think it would all depend on the context of the event and where it was being held.

If the event is mainly for adults, then I see nothing wrong with beer or wine being served. If the event has much more of a family focus, then I would think it probably wouldn’t be appropriate.

my :twocents:

 

[JonNC]

Not sure if this is the right forum to address this question but it’s not specifically a Catholic question, it’s more a Christian question.

A very distraught Luthern friend of mine came to me with a question that I wasn’t sure how to answer.

I’ll sum up her question and then expound upon it in a later paragraph. Basically the question is; Is it appropriate for alcohol to be served at a church function?

Now, the reason for the question. Her church rented a campground for the weekend so that the congregation could get together for fellowship. It was supposed to be a fun weekend for the congregation. Almost immediately upon her arrival she noticed that alcohol was being served. As far as she could tell several members of the congregation were drunk.

She immediately retreated to her own tent and stayed away from everyone for the weekend because she was uncomfortable being around drunkenness and more importantly alcohol in general. Another member who is a struggling alcoholic stayed with her because he too was not comfortable being around alcohol.

Had they known alcohol would be served they wouldn’t have gone but they never imagined a church function would feature liquor. The fellow she stayed with is not a christian, he is just exploring christianity and he was quite scandalized by the whole thing. His comment was: Aren’t these christians? Why are they drinking?

At the end of the weekend she spoke to a few people to express her disappointment and was immediately shot down. Apparently the congregation felt that they shouldn’t have to pretend to be something they’re not just because they’re at a church function and everyone was claiming that no one was drunk.

I’m not sure what to say to her or what advice to offer. Personally I feel it’s inappropriate to be serving alcohol at a church function. It is a situation that could cause scandal. Sure, they know they’re not drunk but those around them may not think so. Unless it’s a wedding or an occasion that calls for celebration I just don’t see the need for alcohol. For now I advised her to take the situation to her pastor and to trust him to handle it.

However, I’m curious to know what you think. Is it okay for alcohol to be served at a church function? Why or why not?

When I was young, our church used to sponsor bus trips to go see the Phillies play. There was often, on these trips, coolers of beer and sodas. No one got drunk, or acted outside of what one would expect a Christian to act like.

I was not on your friend’s camping trip, so I can’t speak to the behaviors of individuals, but to behaviors themselves.

Drinking alcohol is not a sin. Dunkenness can clearly be. In the same way, eating is not a sin, but gluttony can be. It is often hard for me to take seriously a tv preacher loudly condemn a beer or glass of wine at dinner, when he weighs 280 pounds.

The condemnation in scripture is always based on behaviors, not on whether or not one responsibly enjoys a 7&7 once in a while.

Jon

 

[nickybr38]

I never knew Lutheran’s had any notion of thinking that alcohol consumption was “non-Christian”. I believe Martin Luther was an enjoyer of German beer was he not?

I have no idea what Luther taught, I do know that her Pastor teaches that drinking alcohol and smoking cigarettes is sinful (whether in moderation or not). I am unsure why they teach this and I think she’s a little uncertain as well.

The good thing about this whole affair (as much as it upset her) is that she’s asking what the Catholic Church teaches now (and I knew enough to tell her that drinking is okay, as long as it’s in moderation and you aren’t getting drunk).

I wonder if scandalizing new potential converts isn’t an issue though? The parishioners may be well aware they aren’t drunk but doesn’t this create an atmosphere where those passing by may think they are and wouldn’t that in turn cause scandal? That was the point she brought up and I really wasn’t sure what answer to give.

 

[Stylites]

I have no idea what Luther taught, I do know that her Pastor teaches that drinking alcohol and smoking cigarettes is sinful (whether in moderation or not). I am unsure why they teach this and I think she’s a little uncertain as well.

The good thing about this whole affair (as much as it upset her) is that she’s asking what the Catholic Church teaches now (and I knew enough to tell her that drinking is okay, as long as it’s in moderation and you aren’t getting drunk).

I wonder if scandalizing new potential converts isn’t an issue though? The parishioners may be well aware they aren’t drunk but doesn’t this create an atmosphere where those passing by may think they are and wouldn’t that in turn cause scandal? That was the point she brought up and I really wasn’t sure what answer to give.

Well, if no one was staggering around and regurgitating or urinating in public then if someone had any problems seeing alcohol being used in moderation they would have personal issues dealing with rash judgment.

St. Paul advised to take alcohol on occasion for health reasons, after all.

 

[Dorothy]

My pastor no longer allows beer or wine at parish dinners, pig roasts, etc. In the past some people drank immoderately, and even though we believe it is okay to drink moderately, obviously there are some people who have problems.

So, the ones who can drink moderately can do so at home. To keep the parish socials pleasant, no drinking alcoholic beverages is permitted.

 

[Bluegoat]

I am very surprised this would come up in a Lutheran context.

I agree that whether alcohol is appropriate for a particular function would depend on the context. But if I was planning an event, and knew that people in the parish seemed to behave inappropriately with alcohol in the past at events, I would probably not include it.

But it isn’t scandalous to me.

When I was younger, we actually used to sing a spoof of “On Jordan’s Bank” that went like this:

On Jordan’s bank the Baptists cry,
If I were one than so would I.
They never drink, they have no fun,
I’m glad I am an Anglican.

 

[Aelred_Minor]

Alcohol is a wonderful but dangerous thing, much like sex or religion. As Chesterton wrote somewhere, no brute beast ever invented anything as bad as drunkenness, or as good as drink.

As Belloc alluded to somewhere else, we must discern between Bacchus and Satan, between authentic and inauthentic enjoyment of the good things of life. C.S. Lewis perhaps gave the best answer to this in Prince Caspian, in which the four Pevensie children meet Bacchus and his train, and they remark that they would not have felt safe with him if Aslan (Jesus) had not also been there with them. When you drink, like when you do anything, do it with God and for God. If you do this, I think it unlikely you will take drinking too far, or drink in a hedonist rather than Christianly joyful spirit.

Around the 19th century many Protestant denominations were hit with a plague of teetotalism, from which they have yet to totally recover. Recognizing the danger of hedonism and irresponsibility, some people have been inclined to frown on legitimate pleasures as well, or to limit the pleasures of life to what they perceive as totally safe. This is rarely in a spirit of authentic asceticism, which recognizes the goodness of the things given up. It was rather in the spirit of a stuffy scold who can’t stand people enjoying life more than they will let themselves do. The effect on us the great-great-grandchildren of these Victorian-era teetotalers is that we too often see alcohol as something inherently “bad”, a moral error that quickly makes itself true when we decide to drink anyway. I think we should try to combat the vice of drunkenness by purifying our attitudes towards alcoholic beverages and demonstrating to the world how to drink properly, rather than playing into our culture’s puritanical preconceptions.

 

[Matthew_P_Muehl]

Well, if no one was staggering around and regurgitating or urinating in public then if someone had any problems seeing alcohol being used in moderation they would have personal issues dealing with rash judgment.

St. Paul advised to take alcohol on occasion for health reasons, after all.

Christ himself had no problem with alcohol. After all look at all that water he turned
into wine at the wedding feast at cana.

Matthew

 

[Alix1912]

Wow, Lutheran used to be know for serving beer at functions. I’m LCMS and my childhood church and current church served beer and wine at certain occasions, and allowed it in the fellowship hall after funerals and at wedding receptions. It is certainly not prohibited by the LCMS.

My husband’s parrish has a locked Fridge that has the beer and such for the KOC functions in it.

Every picnic, or dinner function we’ve been to at his church has beer and wine at it. Often the Knights sell it at a Cash bar as a fundraiser.

As long as people are behaving properly and responsibily I have no issues.

Technically there is fermented fruit of the wine served at every mass isn’t there

 

[exnihilo]

I do not think it inappropriate, with the caveats others have expressed. But I do have questions. What exactly is drunkenness? Or when does drinking turn into drunkeness? There might not be a clear line, but it seems to me most people are drinking to feel the effect. So if drinking is OK then feeling the effect must be OK. When does one cross the line?

 

[nickybr38]

I do not think it inappropriate, with the caveats others have expressed. But I do have questions. What exactly is drunkenness? Or when does drinking turn into drunkeness? There might not be a clear line, but it seems to me most people are drinking to feel the effect. So if drinking is OK then feeling the effect must be OK. When does one cross the line?

That’s a good question.

I don’t know where to draw the line so I don’t drink at all. Seems to me one drink is enough to set me over that line but I suppose for others it could be different.

As to Alix1912, as I said I know nothing about Luther’s teachings but I do know that this girl’s pastor is strongly against drinking at all. I haven’t been able to pin down which sect of Luthernism this is but I do know they seem to be extremely strict about several things. They teach the real presence, for one thing (no symbolism involved at all) and are strong believers in confession.

 

[karow]

The biggest fundraising event in the parish of my youth is its annual festival, held in mid-June. And the biggest draw at the festival by far is the Beer, Bratwurst, and Bingo Tent. (We’re old school Germans, what can we say?) And some of the best customers in the Beer, Bratwurst, and Bingo Tent are the young men who come over from the seminary 30 or so miles away for fun and fellowship.

So, if mixing alcohol and Catholic events is wrong, that parish has been in the wrong since the 1950s.

 

[Aelred_Minor]

I do not think it inappropriate, with the caveats others have expressed. But I do have questions. What exactly is drunkenness? Or when does drinking turn into drunkeness? There might not be a clear line, but it seems to me most people are drinking to feel the effect. So if drinking is OK then feeling the effect must be OK. When does one cross the line?

There are four ways that I can think of in which a person might sin by drinking alcohol.

1. If you have a poorly formed conscience, you could do something that is not inherently wrong but “wrong for you.” This is not to lay aside the fact of objective right and wrong, but it is to recognize that there is a subjective side to morality as well and someone might choose an objectively good action with evil in their heart.
2. Drinking in violation of a just law of the Church or the State (or even a just family rule). For example, underage drinking or drinking when a passenger in a car, or a Benedictine or Cistercian monk drinking wine outside of the contexts allowed by the Rule of St. Benedict as implemented in their community. This is sinful because it defies legitimate authority.
3. Drinking to the point of moral irresponsibility. Classically, this means intentionally drinking to the point where you might commit sins you otherwise would never have committed. Obviously drinking to the point that your health is seriously endangered would count too. Especially in a modern context, it also would include drinking and then engaging in behavior that is dangerous for someone “under the influence”, most famously drinking and driving.
4. Drinking in a gluttonous spirit. For me at least the difference between gluttonous and non-gluttonous drinking seems obvious intuitively but more difficult to pin down logically. Drinking with conscious intent to get drunk would be obvious here, but I think it goes beyond just matters of quantity. Alcoholic beverages are first and foremost beverages, and if you are no longer consuming them first and foremost as such but as a mind-altering drug, I think you have fallen into a gluttonous attitude even if you are only doing it for the sake of an otherwise healthy buzz. Hard alcohol by its very nature is more apt to degenerate into this. I like a glass of brandy or a Scotch on the rocks once in a while, but when many people drink hard alcohol it’s in a very different spirit. The difference even comes out in our language when we speak of “taking shots.” You don’t take a beverage, you drink it. You take a drug.

 

[Inishfree]

My parish has a funfest/carnival each year as our major fund raiser. Alcohol is served outside in the beer garder (parking lot) and to be truthful, most people don’t bother with it. Unless they want one cup with their steamed crabs. I haven’t seen anyone get drunk or act in an inappropriate way.

Since, this is a familly function. Most people drink soda or bottled water and eat all of the good food we serve. Plus there are rides and wheels where you can win toys, plants and etc.

 

[amber_lux]

at least for Catholics. Maybe Lutherans have a different understanding.

Lutheran pastors have either a Bible or a beer tankard in their hand. Their understanding would be the same as Catholics’.

Amber