Just curious here…
Do the alcoholic properties of the Precious Blood bother you as well?
Alcohol at church functions
- Thread starter vz71
- Start date
- Status
Do the alcoholic properties of the Precious Blood bother you as well?
M
Marfran
Guest
No, not at all. No relationship to drinking alcohol for social reasons, over-indulgence/abuse/addiction, etc.
M
Marfran
Guest
Exactly.
M
Marfran
Guest
You are speaking of INDIVIDUAL behavior. I am concerned about the societal problems that our community faces concerning the many aspects of alcohol, including abuse/addiction/underage drinking/driving under the influence, etc.
As a group we have to look at this from the perspective of a COMMUNITY, the harm and potential harm to ***all members ***of the community–not just how this affects ourselves and our own lives. Being part of a Church/parish community is a microcosm of the larger community of our total society. The problems inherent with alcohol do not check themselves at the door just because it is present at a Church/parish event, as opposed to some other place.
A
aspawloski4th
Guest
Boy , don’t come to the Irsh or German Parishes around here. You Calvinistic attitude twards alcohol would start world war 3.
M
Marfran
Guest
So you don’t care about our society’s problems associated with alcohol? Not your problem if you drink responsibly and someone else gets behind the wheel and kills someone???
People can drink everywhere. Why not at a parish function? Or my question is WHY? Why can’t we have a good time without it?? Why can’t we go a couple of hours without it? Why do people NEED to have it present at everything? Why can’t we have concern for how alcohol negatively affects our society?
J
JRKH
Guest
Marfran, I know that you are speaking from a position of Love and I do not disagree that we could certainly have parish functions without alchohol. However, at least around here that is not likely to happen.
You say above that others are addressing “individual” behavior and you are looking at the societal aspects. Fair enough, except that EVERY behavior is personal. Every Sin is personal.
You say we must look at the potential harm to the community. We must also look at teh potential benefit. If one has a parish function with alchohol and more people come and give than do at function without alchohol there is a benefit to the community by having alchohol served.
The same argument can be made for having “Casino nights” as parish fundraisers. The vast majority of people who attend know how much they can gamble with and know full well that they are helping the parish AND having a pleasent time while doing it. It is also true that people who are addicted to Gambling might come and lose too much. Yet such fundraisers are generaly some of the most profitable parts of parish fundraising.
I think that everyone here recognizes that you are honest and sincere and asking a perfectly legitimate question. I hope that you recognize that we also recognize our obligations to assure that ANY part of ANY parish function is handled with appropriate care for the well being of all.
Peace
James
C
cthulhubryan
Guest
First, we do not need to demonize alcohol. It is not the problem, the problem is how some people respond to it.
Now let’s address this from the view of Charity. Should we stigmatize those who have biological problems with alcohol?
At the parish of St. Martin of Tours they serve alcohol at church functions. It is a small parish of merely 100 people. Everyone knows that Bob is an alcoholic. Father Tim decides that he is concerned about the liability of having Bob drink at parish events.
Suddenly they stop serving alcohol at church functions. Some reason/excuse is given. Despite this, most everyone assumes that the real reason is that Bob is an alcoholic. Gradually Bob begins to feel isolated because of the under the surface resentment he feels and doesn’t understand why. He thinks about joining AA but they meet at the Church, which is the source of his frustrations. Bob not only does not go to AA but slowly stops attending church. After a few months he feels he needs to drink away from home because he feels everyone is watching him. Bob starts driving to the next town to drink. One night on the way home Bob hits a family with 5 kids because he is driving home drunk. Bob has not been to Church in months and is in a state of mortal sin. 8 people are dead and Bob is in Hell.
At the parish of St. Martin of Tours they serve alcohol at church functions. It is a small parish of merely 100 people. Everyone knows that Bob is an alcoholic. Father Tim decides that he is concerned about the liability of having Bob drink at parish events.
Instead of dropping the alcohol from the events, Father Tim decides that the parish does need to be it’s brother’s keeper so he and the head of the KoC start talking to Bob gently at these functions and assuring that Bob doesn’t partake of booze. Several months go by and Bob’s faith has been deepened by the experience, he joins AA and the KoC and everyone is better off and no one had to die.
I realize that this is an extreme example, but changing traditions at Churches because of a perceived possible concern is also an extreme choice.
By stopping serving at church events, the moral leaders of the parish now have banished anyone with a potential problem to drink among other sinners and to be much more likely to visit near occasions of sin instead of being around those that care for them and have the means to intervene/offer assistance.
J
JRKH
Guest
Why do you assume that, because we are not against dinking, that we don’t care about problems associated with irresponsible drinking.
Because MORE people have a BETTER time with it.
Generally speaking I would say that those people who choose NOT to drink have just as good a time as those who choose TO drink. Each is free to do as they wish (within legal limits).
Why does our concern for the “negative effects of alchohol on society” force us to restrict, remove alchohol from those who DO know how to handle it appropiately.
Peace
James
A
aspawloski4th
Guest
Most Catholic functions at a parish especially an older one are usully conected with an ethnicity and an ethnic tradition. I’m surrounded by it here. Having beer at a function is a tradition of the IRsh and the Germans, Just as when you have a Polish parish fuinction involving food, saurkraut is going to be with everything. I have been to plenty of church functions in my lifetime and the only one’s where Ive seen anyone less than sober is wedding receptions. People are not going to get drunk at thursday night bingo because they have to be to work the next day any way. Most Catholic parishes that were founded during the drpression or earlier here in the USA are ethnic parisdhes, and I would never ever dream of taking away ethnic traditions.
M
Marfran
Guest
The vast majority of people on this thread have indicated that problems with alcohol are PERSONAL in nature, and that they feel it (alcohol) should be present at Church/parish functions. Why should responsible drinkers have to give up their alcohol so that persons with problems do not succumb, or are tempted.
??? Why???
It is available to everyone, not just the ones who are appropriate with it. ***Who knows who ***will or has a problem, ***who knows who will ***get in an accident on the way home, or continue to binge after having that one or two drinks at the parish event…
Parish is community, microcosm of larger society. There are people with addictions, alcoholics, problem drinkers, etc. in the larger society–it is unlikely that ALL Catholics, and ALL Catholics who attend Church events are ALL SANS these problems that plague the larger society.
M
Marfran
Guest
You can not always SEE a problem. And some “problems” you will NOT see.
And I just saw a show on TV where they were testing the blood alcohols of people suspected of DUI. The man wth the highest blood alcohol level did not slur his speech, could walk a straight line, and showed no obvious signs of inebriation–but he was several times the legal limit…
A
aspawloski4th
Guest
What you want out of me is to go against tradition, ethnic tradition. I don’t do that. I’m already disowned from some of my own family for agreeing with some modern ideas. Sheesh.
J
JRKH
Guest
That is because problems with alchohol ARE personal in nature. That certainly does not mean that there aren’t aspects of such problems that effect the community as a whole, but the problem itself remains a personal one.
Whether alchohol is openly present at a parish function or not will not prevent an alcoholic from getting his drink. He may have to sneak it in, or he may just not come, and instead go to a secular place (Bar) or whatever.
I dunno. There can be lots of reasons I guess. One might be that, as a sedative, it helps them relax. Another might be because they like the flavor of certain drinks. A third could be that certain types of alcohol have always been a part of thier lives (such as beer in German communites or Wine in Italian communities).
Why don’t you ask around among your friends.
Frankly this gets into an area that I would prefer not to go.
It gets into the whole idea of restricting the many good and responsible people because of the irresponsible actions of a few. It gets into socialism and social engineering which is already rampant in this country, with the result that it is illegal in most places to smoke a cigarette, but perfectly OK to kill unborn babies.
Sorry for that rant. I do not accuse you of such leanings, but you see why I would prefer to stay away from addressing such things.
Please understand that I am not a big drinker. I was exposed to responsible drinking as a child as all of my siblings, cousins, etc were. None of us are big drinkers but we all enjoy a bottle of beer or glass of wine during social gatherings.
If my parish were to take a poll of the parishoners I would, of course, vote in favor of serving alcohol.
If my parish were to decide that Alcohol was not to be served at parish functions it would most likely not deter ME from attending (Except for the Parish fesival since I couldn’t think of having my Bratwurst without my Beer and that is the main reaons I go…
)Peace
James
M
Marfran
Guest
I do not see the “restricting” aspect. Alcohol is legal, and it can be obtained and utilized everywhere. NOT having it at a Church function/event does NOT restrict anyone–they can spend an hour or two at the event and go home and have themselves a glass of whatever. So one event they have cake, the next event they don’t have cake and have cookies instead. Does anyone feel restricted that cake was not at the second event??? WHY would you feel restricted if alcohol was NOT present at a Church event??? If one has to have it so bad, one can obtain it elsewhere. Goes to the nature of the substance.
Some people say it should be present at Church events where children are present–so that parents can model responsible drinking behavior to their children. ***Well that only works for one’s own children. ***I have seen someone who was visibly/obviously affected by alcohol at a Church event (not falling down drunk, just becoming loud, boisterous, etc.). MY children witnessed this, as did ***all ***the children in attendance, as did this person’s own children. I don’t know if this person has an ongoing problem, or if he/she just had a little too much innocently–but if the alcohol had not been there, this would not have occurred THERE, in front of MY children.
And then there’s the guy who has just one drink at that Church event to “fit in” and not “stand out,” and thinks he will not succumb to his alcoholic tendencies, but goes home and continues to drink… And then there’s the guy who shows no visible signs of the affects of the alcohol that he consumed at that event, who leaves the event and gets into an automobile accident…
You don’t have these issues with WATER, or cake… Alcohol IS a problem for many, and there are many situations in which it can become a problem. Considering this, WHY do we HAVE to have it at a Church event?? For tradition??? Who cares about that closet alcoholic that struggles with this issue and would do better at a Church event WITHOUT it being present. FOR TASTE??? The children can’t drink it–and WE adults can’t be at ONE event without it??? Considering ALL the harm that this drink brings to our society, considering its presence EVERYWHERE, why can’t we JUST SAY NO for an hour or two–why can’t we put the needs of the* injured/those struggling with this *ABOVE our need to always have it there???
BTW: Alcohol **IS **a drug.
K
kage_ar
Guest
Beer and wine sales are HUGE $$ makers at these events. I am sure that if you would offer to match the funds made off last year’s beer tent - the Parish or school could then not serve beer.
Every event I have ever been to where there is alcohol available also has off-duty cops to make sure no one drives under the influence.
Every event I have ever been to where there is alcohol available also has off-duty cops to make sure no one drives under the influence.
L
Love_is_Patient
Guest
Nothing wrong with that.
Love is Patient
M
Marfran
Guest
My parish does not SELL alcohol. You need a liquor license to SELL it. They do serve it however, at every function. Someone always donates it, or if they buy it, it is understood that it is not for sale, however, ***donations ***are accepted to cover the costs.
I know of another parish that has an outdoor carnival event and does SELL the beer, etc. I imagine that they*** do ***have the liquor license. The event draws big crowds (and most of the attendees are not even from the parish, or are even Catholic). Brings in a lot of money for that parish, requires a lot of police presence, and there are always issues related to drinking, fighting etc., and always a number of arrests, but the parish makes a lot of money. So different parishes do things differently and I imagine that the region of the country also makes a difference. Again in my parish, no money is really made through the sale of alcohol, but it seems that there can not be an event without it.
E
EasterJoy
Guest
Not even Mass, huh?
Seriously, why stop with alcohol? I bet there has to be high-calorie, high-fat food with insufficient fiber at every parish function, too. Barely any fruit, and no veggies except the ones provided for the hamburgers. Looking at the body types, I’d bet that there are far more future type 2 diabetics and cardiac patients in any given parish than there are current and future alcoholics combined.
Probably the soup suppers during Lent shouldn’t have beer and wine offered. Other than that, and assuming there haven’t been problems with irresponsible drinking, alcohol at parish events is used responsibly at many places, and responsibly enjoyed. It would be good to put access in an out-of-the-way spot, and not on the tables, so that inappropriate use isn’t made more of a temptation than it has to be. An adult should supervise, so the kids don’t get into it. It goes without saying that there should be water and non-kiddie non-alcoholic drinks available, too. Common sense stuff.
The truth is, Orthodox Jews have wine at every Sabbath, and yet alcohol abuse is rare. Exposing children to appropriate alcohol use is not harmful. If anything, it lets them know that not everybody with access to free booze feels a need to abuse it. There is nothing to be gained by giving a mystique it doesn’t need.
E
EasterJoy
Guest
If the caps are warranted, this is another issue: that is, the parish at which responsible use has not been the rule. That is a whole different ballgame.
Seeing one person drink too much in the context of many, many events where the use is responsible, however, is not going to convince a child that overuse is approved of by the adults. Still, anyone who is visibly intoxicated at a parish event needs to be escorted out and taken home, ASAP. (They deserve a little talking to from the pastor, too.) There should be zero tolerance for any kind of overuse, in real time.
- Status