Alcohol Drinking - a NEW perspective?

[malachi_a_serva]

If the tradition is quite clear (fermented grapes) as you say yourself, if his intention was unfermented, wouldn’t it be more imperative that He say “unfermented”? Isn’t the silence more indication that He intended that which was traditional at the time and prior? He obviously endorsed the tradition at Cana. It takes a lot more “loud voices of human reasoning” to aggregate multiple NT and OT verses to come to the conclusion of unfermented than the simple conclusion of the local tradition and common use of fermented combined w/ Cana that He meant fermented.

Yes I agree the arguement could be both ways. However, since everything had no corruption, no fermentation, no yeast - that could be assumed for the drink.

Yes I see your point thought - God told us “unleavened bread” so why not “unfermented wine”…

But I think logically it makes sence - no corruption, no corruption, no corruption. Why no corruption on the bread yet allowed on the drink?

I see you answered this. To you fermentation does not equal corruption.

 

[malachi_a_serva]

Be assured that fermentation is not the same as corruption

Definition: Fermentation
Fermentation
Noun

1. A process in which an agent causes an organic substance to break down into simpler substances; especially, the anaerobic breakdown of sugar into alcohol.
2. **A state of agitation or turbulent change **or development: “the political ferment produced a new leadership”; “social unrest”.
3. A chemical phenomenon in which an organic molecule splits into simpler substances

Proverbs 23:30 They that tarry long at the wine; they that go to seek mixed wine.

23:31 Look not thou upon the wine when it is red, when it giveth his colour in the cup, [when] **it moveth itself **aright.

fer·men·ta·tion (fûrmn-tshn, -mn-)
n.
1.
a. The anaerobic conversion of sugar to carbon dioxide and alcohol by yeast.
b. Any of a group of chemical reactions induced by living or nonliving ferments that split complex organic compounds into relatively simple substances.
2. Unrest; agitation.

thefreedictionary.com/fermentation

 

[LilyM]

Yes I agree the arguement could be both ways. However, since everything had no corruption, no fermentation, no yeast - that could be assumed for the drink.

Yes I see your point thought - God told us “unleavened bread” so why not “unfermented wine”…

But I think logically it makes sence - no corruption, no corruption, no corruption. Why no corruption on the bread yet allowed on the drink?

I see you answered this. To you fermentation does not equal corruption.

Why not unfermented wine? Simply because there likely not have been enough of it or any other type of drink bar alcohol to hand. We’re talking the deserts of Israel here. Any type of juice or milk would go off fairly quickly, even water is often in limited supply.

 

[LilyM]

As it was explained to me by a brewing expert “….and God is good, He gave us beer.”

Reminds me of a quote from Benjamin Franklin - ‘beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy’

 

[malachi_a_serva]

Be assured that fermentation is not the same as corruptions

Well I guess I call it corrupt based on the principle of leaving out of the bread.

But whatever is not suppose to be in the bread = whatever is not suppose to be in the drink.

leaven, leavening - a substance used to produce fermentation in dough or a liquid

fermentation = God says leave it out of the bread.

=

grape juice (or grape wine/boiled grapes) because given no fermentation in the bread - obviously no fermentation in the drink. Or else it does not make sense.

thefreedictionary.com/yeast

 

[malachi_a_serva]

Why not unfermented wine? Simply because there likely not have been enough of it or any other type of drink bar alcohol to hand. We’re talking the deserts of Israel here. Any type of juice or milk would go off fairly quickly, even water is often in limited supply.

ucalgary.ca/~elsegal/Shokel/950413_Raisin_wine.html

widespread opinion that unfermented “raisin-wine” was the only acceptable beverage for Passover use, and that alcoholic wine was severely frowned upon by Jewish tradition. Some even went so far as to say that alcoholic fermentation was included within the prohibition of h\ametz.
Now the preference for raisin-wine is not completely unreasonable. After all, commercially produced kosher wines were a rarity at this time, especially in America, so that the only way to procure a ritually satisfactory beverage would be to make it at home. Though alcoholic wine cannot be easily manufactured by amateurs, raisin-wine can be prepared through a simple process of boiling the raisins in a pot

acs.ucalgary.ca/~elsegal/index2.html HE IS A PROFESSOR AND APPARENTLY A JEW

 

[thechrismyster]

I have studied where in the Bible, i.e. Rev. 21:8
“…immoral, sorcerers, idolaters…”

and Gal 5:21 “… sorcery, hatred,…”

Thatthe word in greek is PHARMAKEIA actually should be translated (drugs - like “pharmacy”).

Hense the USA lists alcohol as the no. 1 drug. Which would equal drug users not getting into heaven. Which would make bartenders “drug pushers” - just a perspective.

definition of the Greek word that Paul used in Galatians 5:20. The word is farmakeia, which is translated literally, “the use or administering of drugs” (Thayer, page 649). From this root, we derive our English word “pharmacy.”

watchmanmag.com/0405/040520.htm

God isn’t an accountant. Words are ours, not his. It seems like this argument is a little like the angels dancing on the head of a pin one… it’s a mental exercise that is interesting… but it leads to ‘paralysis by analysis’

but i think if God was sitting in physical form on my front porch watching a thunderstorm with me, he’d like a cold brew.

its like someone coming to thanksgiving dinner at my house and they start analyzing the nutrition contents of all the appetizers… i’d probably slap them. I think God would do the same.

 

[malachi_a_serva]

BOILING RASINS IN A POT. tHIS SEEMS TO BE THE EASIEST OF EVERYTHING i READ.

gRAPES WOULD TURN INTO RAISINS. (0pps just realized cap lock sorry). Keep raisins then when need “fruit of the vine” drink. Boil raisens. Pretty easy

 

[LilyM]

BOILING RASINS IN A POT. tHIS SEEMS TO BE THE EASIEST OF EVERYTHING i READ.

gRAPES WOULD TURN INTO RAISINS. (0pps just realized cap lock sorry). Keep raisins then when need “fruit of the vine” drink. Boil raisens. Pretty easy

How well does this ‘raisin wine’ keep though? And raisins would much more likely all be eaten than kept to make drink out of.

 

[malachi_a_serva]

God isn’t an accountant. Words are ours, not his. It seems like this argument is a little like the angels dancing on the head of a pin one… it’s a mental exercise that is interesting… but it leads to ‘paralysis by analysis’

but i think if God was sitting in physical form on my front porch watching a thunderstorm with me, he’d like a cold brew.

its like someone coming to thanksgiving dinner at my house and they start analyzing the nutrition contents of all the appetizers… i’d probably slap them. I think God would do the same.

I would disagree but you are free to have your opinion. I call that “your God”. “Your God” would sit and have a drink - but he doesn’t exist. Not the God of the Bible(IMHO). Think about it - a God so righteous that his son Jesus had to bear extreme torture…so we can have a beer at whatever. So righteous that he just couldn’t have said “ah well, I forgive” - No JUSTICE needed to be done. Hense God’s sacrifice. The Lamb of God.

The way I see it - all knees will be bowed. We will be silent.

Romans 14:11 “…every knee shall bow to me…” - we shall give an account. (also see Phil 2:10)

Sounds pretty serious.

Rom 3:19 “…that every mouth will be stopped, and all the world will become guilty before God…”

Sounds pretty serious.

 

[malachi_a_serva]

God isn’t an accountant. Words are ours, not his.

“Let no corrupt word proceed out of your mouth, but what is good for necessary edification, that it impart grace to the hearers.” Eph 4:29

Matt 12:36 - and this is a big one

“But I say unto you, That** every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgement**”

Sounds serious.

 

[malachi_a_serva]

How well does this ‘raisin wine’ keep though? And raisins would much more likely all be eaten than kept to make drink out of.

I am going to try it. I bet it keeps. Raisens are easy to carry. No refridgeration necessary. Then just boil it in water.

Honestly - this makes the most sense to me.

Wine?..a miniscule pocket between drinkable and vinegar and spoiled. But I am no expert. But that Jewish professor seems to be.

 

[steveandersen]

Definition: Fermentation
Fermentation
Noun

1. A process in which an agent causes an organic substance to break down into simpler substances; especially, the anaerobic breakdown of sugar into alcohol.
2. **A state of agitation or turbulent change **or development: “the political ferment produced a new leadership”; “social unrest”.
3. A chemical phenomenon in which an organic molecule splits into simpler substances

and how does that mean corruption?

Are you suggesting that any change is corruption?
How about a seed sprouting? (Which also involves the breakdown of complex sugars)
Or a child developing?
Or a man aging.?

To my mind corruption is when times don’t go the way they were intend to go.
I don’t see a natural process as corruption.

Proverbs 23:30 They that tarry long at the wine; they that go to seek mixed wine.

What about them?

23:31 Look not thou upon the wine when it is red, when it giveth his colour in the cup, [when] **it moveth itself **aright.

This seems to be a warning not to drink wine that isn’t finished (or that may be infected)
These are recognizable steps in the fermentation process

I’m reminded of the story of Professor Katz from the U of P. He had translated an ancient Sumerian prayer called the “Ode to Ninkasi” (she was their goddess of brewing) he could translate the words but they didn’t make sense to him so he called a brewer in and he was able to recognized the step of brewing within the text.

 

[malachi_a_serva]

“Let no corrupt word proceed out of your mouth, but what is good for necessary edification, that it impart grace to the hearers.” Eph 4:29

Here is another example of where God wants “no corruption”.

Wants no corruption in the bread.
Wants no corruption in speech

therefore

Wants no corruption in drink.

 

[malachi_a_serva]

and how does that mean corruption?

Are you suggesting that any change is corruption?
I don’t see a natural process as corruption.

cor·rup·tion (k-rpshn)
n.
1.
a. The act or process of corrupting.
b. The state of being corrupt.
2. Decay; rot.
3. Archaic Something that corrupts.

The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition copyright ©2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Updated in 2003. Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.

1. corruption - in a state of progressive putrefaction
   putrescence, putridness, rottenness
   putrefaction, rot - a state of decay usually accompanied by an offensive odor
   3.** corruption - decay of matter (as by rot or oxidation)**decay - the process of gradually becoming inferior

de·cay (d-k)
v. de·cayed, de·cay·ing, de·cays
v.intr.v.tr.
To cause to decay.
n.
1.
a. The destruction or decomposition of organic matter as a result of bacterial or fungal action; rot.
b. Rotted matter.
de·cayer n.
Synonyms: decay, rot, putrefy, spoil, crumble, molder, disintegrate, decompose
These verbs refer to gradual change resulting in destruction or dissolution. Decay can denote partial deterioration short of complete destruction: Brush and floss regularly to prevent teeth from decaying.
Rot is sometimes synonymous with decay, but often, like putrefy, stresses offensiveness to the sense of smell: The food left on the counter began to rot. Arctic cold prevented the prehistoric animal from putrefying.
Spoil usually refers to the process by which perishable substances become unfit for use or consumption: Put the fish in the refrigerator before they spoil.
Crumble implies physical breakdown into small fragments or particlesecompose, largely restricted to the breakdown of substances into their chemical components, also connotes rotting and putrefying, both literally and figuratively:

The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition copyright ©2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Updated in 2003. Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.

1. decay - the process of gradually becoming inferior
   caries, dental caries, tooth decay, cavity - soft decayed area in a tooth; progressive decay can lead to the death of a tooth
   **corruption - decay of matter (as by rot or oxidation)**rotting, putrefaction, rot, **decomposition - (biology) the process of decay caused by bacterial or fungal action **

 

[malachi_a_serva]

Sorry gotta run. 5.14 hrs - too much3AM - 8AM (I am on holidays)
gotta run to do stuff and be productive. Thank you everyone for your great thoughts and comments. I shall return later to respond again.

Peace.

 

[NotWorthy]

Good morning NotWorthy, I appreciate your comments. What about:

Leviticus 10:9-10
“Do not drink wine nor strong drink, thou, nor thy sons with thee, when ye go into the tabernacle of the congregation(God’s temple), lest ye die: it shall be a statue for ever throughout your generations: And that ye may put difference between holy and unholy, and between unclean and clean.”

Throughout the generations of Aaron’s priesthood. Wasn’t Aaron’s family given a special priesthood. Moses was not addressing this at all to the assembly.

Oh yeah, and good morning, Malachi!!! If I at first seem abrupt, it’s because I’m in exile this week in Cleveland. I shouldn’t complain. The weather here is 70 degrees!!! I could get used to this!

 

[steveandersen]

Well I guess I call it corrupt based on the principle of leaving out of the bread.

But whatever is not suppose to be in the bread = whatever is not suppose to be in the drink.

leaven, leavening - a substance used to produce fermentation in dough or a liquid

fermentation = God says leave it out of the bread.

=

grape juice (or grape wine/boiled grapes) because given no fermentation in the bread - obviously no fermentation in the drink. Or else it does not make sense.

thefreedictionary.com/yeast

The discovery that yeasts (albeit different strains) are responsible for both bread rising and fermentation is a modern one. To assume that the ancients knew this is a big leap.
As far as they knew they were different process.

As stated above, leavening was not forbidden for all uses. They did not use it when they were leaving Egypt because they did not have time to let the bread rise. They do it at Passover as a remembrance.

Grapes (and grape juice) would only be available during harvest time. Wine was how they preserved the crop (and unknowingly disinfected their water)

Wine does not automatically proceed to vinegar. It has to be infected with a bacterium and aerated for that to happen. Once fermentation is complete wine can be stable for many months if stored properly. Wine doesn’t have to last forever. It just has to last until next harvest.

Could they have also used rasins? Sure. Drying is another traditional preservation method. But that is neither here nor there.
We as Catholics believe in Holy Tradition. If Jesus used stewed raisin juice at the last supper the Apostles would have told us. They were there after all.

 

[Melchior]

Thanks Mel, a few questions then if I may.

Sure.

Why does the Bible contradict itsefl? Don’t drink wine in God’s house - Drink wine in God’s house…

The Bible does not contradict itself. Taking passages out of context gives the appearance of contradiction. What is the context and what does drinking or not drinking in the Temple have to do with whether drinking in any context is appropriate?

I was told as well that yes indeed fermentation does begin immediately - but that it immediately “spoils” as well. So there is a finite moment it can be drunk and that the process to keep it from spoiling wasn’t invented until just the last 100 years or so…just looking for comments.

No grapes spoil quickly. The fermentation process is what keeps the juice from spoiling. Alcohol is a preservative.

mY STUDIES INDICATE WINE IS REFERRED TO IN 2 STATES - I am sure you all heard it before - wine “unfermented” and wime “fermented”. I also read somewhere that a doctor indicated red wine good for the stomach is true - but that the ingrediants that assist actually come from the grape juice - not the alcohol part. So drinking grape juice would benefit the same.

There is no historical dispute whatsoever. That wine was actually real wine was never disputed until the late 19th in America. With no historical evidence whatsoever. Histories were just made up by well meaning preacher who justified the means because drunkeness is obviously bad. Grape juice is indeed good for you. But Paul did not tell Timothy to drink grape juice, it was invented yet. He told him to drink wine. It was common ancient medicinal practice to stop diarhea. Juice does not help that problem. Wine does. The ancients knew it. But even if it did. That is not what scripture indicates. There was no such thing as non-alcoholic wine. This is an indisputable fact of history.

Pouring on a wine - yes the fermented stuff. But it doesn’t say to drink it there.

True, what is the implication. Everything God commanded to be sacrificed to Him was always the best of the best. Things that would be an actual sacrifice to give up because of their value and because theywere good things, blessings. Do you see the point.
Just fruther comments and thanks these have all been good.

I hope these answers are helpful. Please let me know if I can clarify anything.

Blessings,

Mel

 

[steveandersen]

…corruption - decay of matter (as by rot or oxidation)rotting, putrefaction, rot, decomposition - (biology) the process of decay caused by bacterial or fungal action

Note well that your definition doesn’t mention yeast.

Fermentation is an anaerobic process. It is not oxidation.