Alcohol, fundamentalism and the Wedding of Cana

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I grew up Church of Christ - here is the short version of a sermon I heard preached on Sunday …

Consumption of alcohol is a sin. The true Christian cannot justify drinking alcohol - not even a glass of wine with dinner by saying that Jesus drank alcohol … the wine Jesus drank had no alcoholic properties. We know this because at the Wedding Feast in Cana Jesus turned water into wine and because that miracle did not involve fermentation - there was no alcohol. Plus in other passages of scripture - Jesus was accused of being a drunkard - but since Jesus would never have drank alcohol nor gotten drunk - the wince he consumed had no alcohol and he was showing the drunkards how and what they should drink instead of alcoholic drinks … 🤷

Anyway - that’s what the Church of Christ [the branch of the Church of Christ that does not use musical instruments in their worship …because the Scriptures say “Lift up your voice and make a joyful noise unto the Lord”] taught in the 1960s and 1970s … I remember several of Brother Levi’s sermons like they were yesterday - the one on the evils of alcohol is one of my favorites … :rolleyes:
 
The miracle is not the issue. This is really just a legacy of a massive number of American women fed up that their husbands were alcoholics and that this was accepted and, in many cases, encouraged by American society.

http://i276.photobucket.com/albums/kk29/linkage_01/kos/coffee_hour/temperance_movement.jpg

http://images.fineartamerica.com/images-medium-large-5/temperance-movement-1890-granger.jpg

It means that we take the Scriptures seriously when it condemns drunkenness (Isaiah 5:11, 1 Corinthians 6:10), and we would rather not indulge in a substance that has been such a problem in our culture.

I don’t, however, think that drinking in moderation is a sin (even though I would not do even that), and I don’t think its right to say that it is a sin. It’s proof texting.
Im not a fan of picking verses left and right. Thanks for the heads up.

Perhaps if people really made it a point to be more Christlike, rather than forcing verses to make a point. 🤷

BTW, was it water into wine or water into alcohol (which I understand is an Arabic influenced word). 😉

MJ
 
The miracle is not the issue. This is really just a legacy of a massive number of American women fed up that their husbands were alcoholics and that this was accepted and, in many cases, encouraged by American society.

http://i276.photobucket.com/albums/kk29/linkage_01/kos/coffee_hour/temperance_movement.jpg

http://images.fineartamerica.com/images-medium-large-5/temperance-movement-1890-granger.jpg

It means that we take the Scriptures seriously when it condemns drunkenness (Isaiah 5:11, 1 Corinthians 6:10), and we would rather not indulge in a substance that has been such a problem in our culture.

I don’t, however, think that drinking in moderation is a sin (even though I would not do even that), and I don’t think its right to say that it is a sin. It’s proof texting.
From Wiki - en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Bramwell_Welch
At age 17, Thomas Welch joined the Wesleyan Methodist Connexion,[1] founded the same year (1843). From its beginning, the Wesleyan Methodist Connexion strongly opposed (1) the “manufacturing, buying, selling, or using intoxicating liquors”, and (2) “slaveholding, buying, or selling” of slaves.[2]
With the first edition of their Discipline, the **Wesleyan Methodists expressly required for the Lord’s Supper that “unfermented wine only should be used at the sacrament.”[3] This requirement was about 25 years before Welch used pasteurization. **So it is clearly evident that pasteurization was not the only method used to prepare it unfermented. There were traditional methods to prepare unfermented wine (juice) for use at any time during the year, e.g. to reconstitute concentrated grape juice, or to boil raisins, or to add preservatives that prevent juice from fermenting and souring.[4]
Then in 1869, Welch invented a method of pasteurizing grape juice so that fermentation was stopped, and the drink was non-alcoholic. He persuaded local churches to adopt this non-alcoholic “wine” for communion services, calling it "Dr. Welch’s Unfermented Wine."
 
The miracle is not the issue. This is really just a legacy of a massive number of American women fed up that their husbands were alcoholics and that this was accepted and, in many cases, encouraged by American society.

http://i276.photobucket.com/albums/kk29/linkage_01/kos/coffee_hour/temperance_movement.jpg

http://images.fineartamerica.com/images-medium-large-5/temperance-movement-1890-granger.jpg

It means that we take the Scriptures seriously when it condemns drunkenness (Isaiah 5:11, 1 Corinthians 6:10), and we would rather not indulge in a substance that has been such a problem in our culture.

I don’t, however, think that drinking in moderation is a sin (even though I would not do even that), and I don’t think its right to say that it is a sin. It’s proof texting.
If I was a man and had choose between drinking alcohol or going home to a sour face someone in the photo, the answer would be drinking the alcohol. :rolleyes: :eek: 🤷
 
If I was a man and had choose between drinking alcohol or going home to a sour face someone in the photo, the answer would be drinking the alcohol. :rolleyes: :eek: 🤷
No doubt they were sour faced, but if you lived in that time and had to rely on a drunk of a husband for your and your children’s survival and who could slap you around with impunity once he got home from an afternoon at the watering hole, you might be a little upset as well.
 
I grew up Church of Christ - here is the short version of a sermon I heard preached on Sunday …

Consumption of alcohol is a sin. The true Christian cannot justify drinking alcohol - not even a glass of wine with dinner by saying that Jesus drank alcohol … the wine Jesus drank had no alcoholic properties. We know this because at the Wedding Feast in Cana Jesus turned water into wine and because that miracle did not involve fermentation - there was no alcohol. Plus in other passages of scripture - Jesus was accused of being a drunkard - but since Jesus would never have drank alcohol nor gotten drunk - the wince he consumed had no alcohol and he was showing the drunkards how and what they should drink instead of alcoholic drinks … 🤷

Anyway - that’s what the Church of Christ [the branch of the Church of Christ that does not use musical instruments in their worship …because the Scriptures say “Lift up your voice and make a joyful noise unto the Lord”] taught in the 1960s and 1970s … I remember several of Brother Levi’s sermons like they were yesterday - the one on the evils of alcohol is one of my favorites … :rolleyes:
That sermon made me laugh. Nowhere in the wedding miracle does it say fermentation did not happen. Hey if Jesus can turn water into wine, are you telling me He couldn’t speed up the fermentation process at the same time? I also like when he said Jesus couldn’t be drunk because He wouldn’t drink alcohol. Then wouldn’t the Pharisees accuse Him the same way they did John?

33For John the Baptist came neither eating food nor drinking wine, and you said, ‘He is possessed by a demon.’34The Son of Man came eating and drinking and you said, ‘Look, he is a glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners.’n
 
-]/-]
I was raised in a Baptist church by a tee-totaling family.
Here’s how I would answer your question.

In the time of Jesus, there was no evil associated with alcohol. People used it at appropriate times for appropriate purposes, and no one associated it with any evil. It would be the equivalent of drinking Pepsi today.

But for much of the history of the United States, alcohol has been associated with evil. Here …

Alcohol use and abuse by men was one of the main reasons why the Suffragette Movement gained ground. I just finished reading the biography of one of the leaders of the Suffragette Movement; she not only lectured on Votes for Women, but also for Prohibition of alcohol.
  1. During Prohibition in the U.S., organized crime grew and was rampant, mainly for the purposes of making and selling alcohol. Even after Prohibition was repealed, organized crime continues to flourish in the U.S… Nowadays, the adult crime syndicates work with teen gangs to recruit teenagers and children into their network of crime.
Friends, everyone should find this shocking–that for the sake of ALCOHOL, people were AND STILL ARE willing to break the law to make or purchase hooch, often knowing that they were buying from mobsters who were at war with each other and killed their fellow men and women as easily and carelessly as we kill flies.

How can Christians associate themselves with a substance that has so much power to lure good, decent people into committing illegal and dangerous acts?! How can Christians justify this?! I am amazed and just plain scared that Christians, especially Catholics, will argue in favor of alcohol use when they know the power of this substance. It’s like the Evil Ring from the Lord of the Rings trilogy–NO ONE should take a chance and use it because it has too much power.
  1. Association of alcohol with date rape. Like it or not, it’s the Number One Reason for date rape and other crimes against women.
  2. Association of alcohol with drunken driving murders. Yes, these are murders. The person who drinks alcohol and drives a car is doing nothing different than a person who picks up a gun. And the reason that nothing happens to people who are arrested for DUI and DWI is that everyone does it, even people who should know better, like medical professionals, lawyers, pastors, and judges. Disgusting. Drunk drivers who murder innocent people should be made to suffer an equivalent consequence that their victims and families suffered. And people who are caught driving drunk should be punished so severely that they will never ever consider drinking and driving again, and if they do, they should be considered potential murderers and put away for a long, long time so that the rest of us will be safe from them.
  3. The association of alcohol with addiction (alcoholism), which can lead to loss of home, family, job, health, dignity. Visit any rescue mission. Visit the Pacific Garden Mission in Chicago, and witness the waste of human lives and hear their sad stories of one-time success and happiness ended by their addiction to alcohol. None of them started drinking with the intention of becoming addicted, but it happened anyway. People who have the tendency to alcohol addiction often don’t know it until it’s too late.
It’s hard for me to believe that Christians would ever use a substance that may be OK for them, but deadly for others. How arrogant of us! How selfish!

Stuckinavortex, you and others are right. The Bible never tells us to “not drink.”

But the Bible makes it clear in many places that we are to avoid sin and the occasion of sin, and even the “appearance of evil.”

For many Christians, not just the “fundamentalists,” this Bible and traditional church teaching about “avoiding the appearance of evil” is the reason that they avoid alcohol use and condemn its use by other Christians. There is little good associated with alcohol and much, much evil and heartbreak, a tragic history of sorrow. What I listed above is just a small sampling of the havoc and tragedy that alcohol use (not just abuse) has caused and continues to cause.

How Christians can endorse its use is beyond me.

This type of alcohol-associated evil didn’t exist back in Jesus’ time when He performed the miracle of the changing of water into wine. But it does now. We can’t live in the past, and we can’t cite examples of life in the past to justify actions today that are associated with so many tragedies, crimes, and heartbreak. Alcohol use is not necessary for Christians to experience joy and freedom. We already have that.

I hope this answers your question. I recommend that you and others stop thinking that non-drinking “fundamentalists” are idiots. They are not.
Alcohol can be abused as can many other good things. But the majority of human beings who enjoy a glass of wine don’t use it for “evil purposes”. Your post is very American-centric, which represents a tiny percentage of Catholics. In many cultures today drinking wine or beer is, like it was in 1st century Palestine, “like drinking Pepsi”. When I was in Italy, the nuns who hosted us served us wine every single night. It would be odd not to have your daily glass of wine with dinner.
 
If I was a man and had choose between drinking alcohol or going home to a sour face someone in the photo, the answer would be drinking the alcohol. :rolleyes: :eek: 🤷
This isn’t funny or clever at all.

Alcoholics (and other addicted people) tend to use excuses like this to justify continuing their addition and making no attempt to break free.

And non-alcoholics who are OK with getting drunk tend to use excuses like this to justify getting drunk. This approach is used often by comedians and in shows and movies to justify getting drunk. However, stand-up comedy routines, shows, and movies are not real-life, and to the loved ones or work associates who have to put up with a weak person who solves their “problems” by getting drunk, it isn’t funny at all. It’s tragic.

And to judge a woman’s appearance or personality by one photograph is grossly unfair to her.

This kind of attitude only reinforces my conviction that alcohol, even in moderation, is not good at all.

I challenge all those who drink in moderation to examine carefully their attitudes and always be careful in their words, and never encourage drinking in order to “escape” from anything, including ugly men or women. This is a very unhealthy reason for drinking and only reinforces the anti-alcohol opinions of people like me.
 
-]/-]

Alcohol can be abused as can many other good things. But the majority of human beings who enjoy a glass of wine don’t use it for “evil purposes”. Your post is very American-centric, which represents a tiny percentage of Catholics. In many cultures today drinking wine or beer is, like it was in 1st century Palestine, “like drinking Pepsi”. When I was in Italy, the nuns who hosted us served us wine every single night. It would be odd not to have your daily glass of wine with dinner.
Yes, I thought I made it clear in my post that I was referring to the United States and our culture.

European ways and culture don’t really matter much to me on a practical level. I don’t live there. I live in the United States and I have to deal daily with our 400 years of history and the culture that surrounds me.
 
1 Timothy 5: 23 Stop drinking only water, but have a little wine for the sake of your stomach and your frequent illnesses.

Peace
That perfectly sedways into my point.
Not to anger the Temperance Gods :eek:, my own research into my ancestry who settled along the river in south side of Pittsburgh reveals drinking the water at that time might not have been the healthiest thing to do. Typhoid epidemics happened frequently, many leading to death. My great-grandmother had a brother who died at the age of 12 of typhoid. Only later were purification systems designed to prevent this.
For many, right or not, alcohol was one way of avoiding a lousy water supply.
 
No doubt they were sour faced, but if you lived in that time and had to rely on a drunk of a husband for your and your children’s survival and who could slap you around with impunity once he got home from an afternoon at the watering hole, you might be a little upset as well.
You have to admit Itwin, the picture you chose does result in an immediate jovial reaction. It did for my wife. 😉
J/K Itwin. 🙂
 
That sermon made me laugh. Nowhere in the wedding miracle does it say fermentation did not happen. Hey if Jesus can turn water into wine, are you telling me He couldn’t speed up the fermentation process at the same time?
There would only have to be fermentation if He turned the water into juice. 😉

But, that’s the argument that’s typically made. It goes something like this: if Jesus is God, then He would create only that which is good. Something that has decayed – that is not in its original state – is not something that is perfect and good. Jesus would not have created wine, since it’s just grape juice that has undergone the corruption of fermentation (i.e., the process by which its sugars are converted to alcohol). Therefore, Jesus merely created grape juice.

And yes, the Cana story uses the word for wine (οίνος), not alcohol (or ‘strong drink’).
 
This isn’t funny or clever at all.

Alcoholics (and other addicted people) tend to use excuses like this to justify continuing their addition and making no attempt to break free.

And non-alcoholics who are OK with getting drunk tend to use excuses like this to justify getting drunk. This approach is used often by comedians and in shows and movies to justify getting drunk. However, stand-up comedy routines, shows, and movies are not real-life, and to the loved ones or work associates who have to put up with a weak person who solves their “problems” by getting drunk, it isn’t funny at all. It’s tragic.

And to judge a woman’s appearance or personality by one photograph is grossly unfair to her.

This kind of attitude only reinforces my conviction that alcohol, even in moderation, is not good at all.

I challenge all those who drink in moderation to examine carefully their attitudes and always be careful in their words, and never encourage drinking in order to “escape” from anything, including ugly men or women. This is a very unhealthy reason for drinking and only reinforces the anti-alcohol opinions of people like me.
It’s not funny…it’s hilarious! 😃 :rotfl:
 
I challenge all those who drink in moderation to examine carefully their attitudes and always be careful in their words, and never encourage drinking in order to “escape” from anything, including ugly men or women. This is a very unhealthy reason for drinking and only reinforces the anti-alcohol opinions of people like me.
Don’t you think that you are being a bit judgmental here? Just because you have a puritanical view of drinking doesn’t mean that everyone else should, too. The Church doesn’t preach what you do; in fact, I think we could accurately say that the Church preaches the opposite. Your passion against drinking reminds me of those Catholics who see halloween as something purely evil. The extremes is never a good place to be.
 
If I may lighten up this overly serious thread for just a moment.
Everytime I see this thread title, it reminds me of a very famous commercial I remember growing up.
The jingle still rings in my head. 😃
youtube.com/watch?v=yYXfdnhh2Mo

Back to serious. :cool:
 
Yes, I thought I made it clear in my post that I was referring to the United States and our culture.

European ways and culture don’t really matter much to me on a practical level. I don’t live there. I live in the United States and I have to deal daily with our 400 years of history and the culture that surrounds me.
True, you did state that your opinions only applied to US culture.
 
Don’t you think that you are being a bit judgmental here? Just because you have a puritanical view of drinking doesn’t mean that everyone else should, too. The Church doesn’t preach what you do; in fact, I think we could accurately say that the Church preaches the opposite. Your passion against drinking reminds me of those Catholics who see halloween as something purely evil. The extremes is never a good place to be.
Do you think it’s healthy to drink alcohol to escape?

Does the Church teach that it’s OK to drink alcohol to escape?
 
Do you think it’s healthy to drink alcohol to escape?

Does the Church teach that it’s OK to drink alcohol to escape?
Did you know that red wine is good for your health? And why do you think that the only reason to drink is to escape?
 
I was raised in a Baptist church by a tee-totaling family.
Here’s how I would answer your question.

In the time of Jesus, there was no evil associated with alcohol. People used it at appropriate times for appropriate purposes, and no one associated it with any evil. It would be the equivalent of drinking Pepsi today.

But for much of the history of the United States, alcohol has been associated with evil. Here are a few examples:
  1. White people tricked Native American tribes out of their valuables and land by offering them alcohol, which they were (and still are) highly susceptible to. To this day, Native American reservations have a high rate of people who abuse alcohol and who are addicted to it.
  2. Women have always been victims of their husband’s alcohol use, but never more so than during the settling of the United States. During these times, a wife was totally dependent on her husband, as she had very few rights and resources of her own. When her husband went off to the saloon to drink, he could come home and mistreat and abuse her and any children with no legal consequences. If he became addicted, she would suffer not only physical abuse, but the real possibility of him not doing what was necessary to keep his property and possessions; e.g., working the land, doing the heavy chores, etc… If he gambled while drinking, everything they owned could be lost. And if he died in an alcohol-induced crime of passion, she was left bereft, and might have no other recourse than to take up prostitution.
Alcohol use and abuse by men was one of the main reasons why the Suffragette Movement gained ground. I just finished reading the biography of one of the leaders of the Suffragette Movement; she not only lectured on Votes for Women, but also for Prohibition of alcohol.
  1. During Prohibition in the U.S., organized crime grew and was rampant, mainly for the purposes of making and selling alcohol. Even after Prohibition was repealed, organized crime continues to flourish in the U.S… Nowadays, the adult crime syndicates work with teen gangs to recruit teenagers and children into their network of crime.
Friends, everyone should find this shocking–that for the sake of ALCOHOL, people were AND STILL ARE willing to break the law to make or purchase hooch, often knowing that they were buying from mobsters who were at war with each other and killed their fellow men and women as easily and carelessly as we kill flies.

How can Christians associate themselves with a substance that has so much power to lure good, decent people into committing illegal and dangerous acts?! How can Christians justify this?! I am amazed and just plain scared that Christians, especially Catholics, will argue in favor of alcohol use when they know the power of this substance. It’s like the Evil Ring from the Lord of the Rings trilogy–NO ONE should take a chance and use it because it has too much power.
  1. Association of alcohol with date rape. Like it or not, it’s the Number One Reason for date rape and other crimes against women.
  2. Association of alcohol with drunken driving murders. Yes, these are murders. The person who drinks alcohol and drives a car is doing nothing different than a person who picks up a gun. And the reason that nothing happens to people who are arrested for DUI and DWI is that everyone does it, even people who should know better, like medical professionals, lawyers, pastors, and judges. Disgusting. Drunk drivers who murder innocent people should be made to suffer an equivalent consequence that their victims and families suffered. And people who are caught driving drunk should be punished so severely that they will never ever consider drinking and driving again, and if they do, they should be considered potential murderers and put away for a long, long time so that the rest of us will be safe from them.
  3. The association of alcohol with addiction (alcoholism), which can lead to loss of home, family, job, health, dignity.
It’s hard for me to believe that Christians would ever use a substance that may be OK for them, but deadly for others. How arrogant of us! How selfish!

Stuckinavortex, you and others are right. The Bible never tells us to “not drink.”

But the Bible makes it clear in many places that we are to avoid sin and the occasion of sin, and even the “appearance of evil.”

For many Christians, not just the “fundamentalists,” this Bible and traditional church teaching about “avoiding the appearance of evil” is the reason that they avoid alcohol use and condemn its use by other Christians. There is little good associated with alcohol and much, much evil and heartbreak, a tragic history of sorrow. What I listed above is just a small sampling of the havoc and tragedy that alcohol use (not just abuse) has caused and continues to cause.

t.
This is a really nice answer.

The temperance movement really was among the very first large public efforts to create a good and healthy society. . . with important social benefits of reduced family strife and distress, the possibility of economic advancement for the previously drinking class, and the possibility of the socially disconnected to get back on track with their lives and the people around them.

It really was a smart move.

With some loud liberals calling for the legalization of marijuana (yes, the “medical marijuana” notion justly deserves quotation marks!), we’re going to find an increase in social distress and and increase in the need for more policing.
 
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