Alfie's Assertion That Confession is Optional

[Alfie]

BlestOne:

Am I stupid? I just don’t get how come protestants always say they know lots of Catholics that go confess their sins with no intention to quit sinning in that manner. I was raised Catholic and around lots of Catholics and I have never known anyone that has intentionally done this. For that matter…I don’t think it ever occured to me not to be sincere in confession. Confession or reconcilliation is one of the most misunderstood sacraments. It feels good to go talk to your priest and tell him what you have done wrong. I think it shows humility and true contrition to tell someone your sins and discuss how to avoid them in the future. My priest is awesome when we go in for reconcilliation…
Do any of you Protestants out there really believe that Catholics just go in, pick up our “get out of hell free card” and go back along our merry little way? That is the way you make it seem. When I go to reconcilliation, I spend pretty much all day examining my conscience, finding the what’s and why’s of my actions. I also look at how they affect others besides myself. It is a pretty lengthy process cause I am definitely not a saint yet. When I go in and confess, it is truly an awesome feeling. You can feel the grace and mercy come over you. I know it must sound scary to those of you who have never had this experience, but really it is not! A confessor is the one person you can trust to not judge you . When we go to confession we know that what we say isn’t going to get repeated all over town either. I would challenge our protestant brethern here to try it some time…you will love it!!!

Christians are supposed to confess their sins to one another in order to pray for each other when they are having trouble with a particular sin. I will say it again; a priest cannot forgive someone’s sins. Only God can. That is why the ‘Veil’ was torn after Jesus died on the cross. In the Old Testament, only the high priest could enter the "Holy of Holies” once a year on the Day of Atonement. When the Veil was torn after the crucifixion that gave everyone direct access to the “Mercy Seat of God” for the forgiveness of sins. You Catholics forget that we are under a new covenant now, not the old. The relationship between believers and God has completely changed. God is now known as "Father.” That denotes a personal relationship with God unlike in the Old Testament when God was a God of wrath. Church Militant used a verse from Leviticus (old covenant) to justify confessing to a priest. If you want to get technical about it how could a priest forgive sins even in the Old Testament when he is not God. The Catholic Church tries to use the justification of a male priesthood based on the priest being a representation of Christ and he is not. This is one of the main arguments the Catholic Church uses to exclude women from the priesthood. When the priest sacrificed an animal, the animal was the representation of Christ, not the priest. However, the Bible says that believers are all priests able to enter the “Holy of Holies.”

 

[thistle]

Alfie:

Christians are supposed to confess their sins to one another in order to pray for each other when they are having trouble with a particular sin. I will say it again; a priest cannot forgive someone’s sins. Only God can. That is why the ‘Veil’ was torn after Jesus died on the cross. In the Old Testament, only the high priest could enter the "Holy of Holies” once a year on the Day of Atonement. When the Veil was torn after the crucifixion that gave everyone direct access to the “Mercy Seat of God” for the forgiveness of sins. You Catholics forget that we are under a new covenant now, not the old. The relationship between believers and God has completely changed. God is now known as "Father.” That denotes a personal relationship with God unlike in the Old Testament when God was a God of wrath. Church Militant used a verse from Leviticus (old covenant) to justify confessing to a priest. If you want to get technical about it how could a priest forgive sins even in the Old Testament when he is not God. The Catholic Church tries to use the justification of a male priesthood based on the priest being a representation of Christ and he is not. This is one of the main arguments the Catholic Church uses to exclude women from the priesthood. When the priest sacrificed an animal, the animal was the representation of Christ, not the priest. However, the Bible says that believers are all priests able to enter the “Holy of Holies.”

You have still made no comment despite CM quoting this twice already. What do you think Jesus means when he told his Apostles : "Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them; and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained."
Jesus is giving the Apostles his authority to be his representative.

 

[Alfie]

Church Militant:

That’s why the passage in John 20:21-23 is so important.
“21 He said therefore to them again: Peace be to you. As the Father hath sent me, I also send you. 22 When he had said this, he breathed on them; and he said to them: Receive ye the Holy Ghost. 23 Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them; and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained.”
Pax tecum,

The apostles knew Jesus personally and his message of forgiveness. If they knew that a person was really penitent, then they could with absolute certainty proclaim to him the forgiveness of Christ. This sentence does not mean that they had the power to forgive sins. It means they had the power to proclaim the forgiveness of God to people.

By the way CM have you ever been baptized with the “Holy Spirit”?

 

[Church_Militant]

2)

The apostles knew Jesus personally and his message of forgiveness. If they knew that a person was really penitent, then they could with absolute certainty proclaim to him the forgiveness of Christ.

**1) **By the way CM have you ever been baptized with the “Holy Spirit”?I’ll answer this in reverse since the last question has nothing whatever to do with this topic.

1) Yes I have. I am well experienced in the charisms of the Holy Spirit. Have prayed and prophesied in tongues as well as interpretted and prophesied in English. Also have had some measure of discernment of hearts. The latter two are the only gifts that manifest themselves now, and I am not active in Charismatic Catholic circles. I find that most of them ignore the scriptural guidelines and disciplines and I don’t care to be part of that.

2) Alfie, the problem is that your view on John 20:21-23 seems to ignore specifically what Our Lord said.
Let’s look at the Passage again.
“21 He said therefore to them again: Peace be to you. As the Father hath sent me, I also send you. 22 When he had said this, he breathed on them; and he said to them: Receive ye the Holy Ghost. 23 Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them; and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained.”

This does not say that “If they knew that a person was really penitent, then they could with absolute certainty proclaim to him the forgiveness of Christ.” and there is nothing in that passage that even remotely allows for that interpretation.

Jesus said: “23 Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them; and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained.” Where is there any ambiguity in that? Where is there anything that lines up with the statement that you have made? There isn’t. It’s definitive as it stands.

This sentence does not mean that they had the power to forgive sins. It means they had the power to proclaim the forgiveness of God to people.

Yet this does not line up with this or any of the other passages that speak of confession & forgiveness of sins.

Look here at James 5:14-16.
“14: Is any among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord;
15: and the prayer of faith will save the sick man, and the Lord will raise him up; and if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven.
16: Therefore confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects.”

Again there is no ambiguity here. What does the Word of God say to do? Call for the elders (“Presbyteros” literally, which became the position of priests appointed by the bishop) and then what does it say? That in confessing his sins to them (verse 16) and as a result of their prayers and annointing his sins will be forgiven and God will raise him up. Verse 16 is very very clear Alfie, “Therefore confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed.” Do YOU do that when you are sick in obedience to the Word of God? What will happen if you call up your pastor when you are sick and tell him that you are ill and that you need him to obey this passage and come and hear your confession and forgive your sins so the Lord will heal you? If I do that, one of my priests will come to me and do exactly that as part of the Sacrament of the Sick.

One more passage is important to look at here Alfie.
Can men forgive sins?
~ Only God has the power to forgive sins but He exercises this power through men.
~ Mark 2:7 "Why doth this man speak thus? he blasphemeth. Who can forgive sins, but God only?"
~ Matthew 9:1-8 (Same event) "1 And entering into a boat, he passed over the water and came into his own city. 2 And behold they brought to him one sick of the palsy lying in a bed. And Jesus, seeing their faith, said to the man sick of the palsy: Be of good heart, son, thy sins are forgiven thee. 3 And behold some of the scribes said within themselves: He blasphemeth. 4 And Jesus seeing their thoughts, said: Why do you think evil in your hearts? 5 Whether is easier, to say, Thy sins are forgiven thee: or to say, Arise, and walk?

6 But that you may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (then said he to the man sick of palsy,) Arise, take up thy bed, and go into thy house. 7 And he arose, and went into his house. 8 And the multitude seeing it, feared, and glorified God that gave such power to men."
If such power was given to men by God, who are we to interpret it away?
Pax tecum,

 

[MariaG]

**ARTICLE 10
**“I BELIEVE IN THE FORGIVENESS OF SINS” ****976 The Apostle’s Creed associates faith in the forgiveness of sins not only with faith in the Holy Spirit, but also with faith in the Church and in the communion of saints. It was when he gave the Holy Spirit to his apostles that the risen Christ conferred on them his own divine power to forgive sins: "Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained."520

Bold and red by me Christ spoke plainly. Go and forgive. Not go and teach forgiveness.

Also, although God conferred on them the power to do this, Only God forgives sins.

Only God forgives sin[1441](javascriptpenWindow(‘cr/1441.htm’) Only God forgives sins.39 Since he is the Son of God, Jesus says of himself, “The Son of man has authority on earth to forgive sins” and exercises this divine power: "Your sins are forgiven."40 Further, by virtue of his divine authority he gives this power to men to exercise in his name.41

God Bless,
Maria

 

[thistle]

Alfie:

The apostles knew Jesus personally and his message of forgiveness. If they knew that a person was really penitent, then they could with absolute certainty proclaim to him the forgiveness of Christ. This sentence does not mean that they had the power to forgive sins. It means they had the power to proclaim the forgiveness of God to people.

By the way CM have you ever been baptized with the “Holy Spirit”?

When I was baptised it was in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.
It was not in the name of the Father and Son only!!

 

[Alfie]

ARTICLE 10
**“I BELIEVE IN THE FORGIVENESS OF SINS” **976 The Apostle’s Creed associates faith in the forgiveness of sins not only with faith in the Holy Spirit, but also with faith in the Church and in the communion of saints. It was when he gave the Holy Spirit to his apostles that the risen Christ conferred on them his own divine power to forgive sins: "Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained."520

Bold and red by me Christ spoke plainly. Go and forgive. Not go and teach forgiveness.

Also, although God conferred on them the power to do this, Only God forgives sins.

Only God forgives sin [1441](javascriptpenWindow(‘cr/1441.htm’) Only God forgives sins.39 Since he is the Son of God, Jesus says of himself, “The Son of man has authority on earth to forgive sins” and exercises this divine power: "Your sins are forgiven."40 Further, by virtue of his divine authority he gives this power to men to exercise in his name.41

God Bless,
Maria

“Have you ever done anything serious enough to send you to hell?”

 

[LilyM]

“Have you ever done anything serious enough to send you to hell?”

What’s the point behind that remark?

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Have you ever done anything serious enough to send you to hell?"

Why, yes. Thanks be to God that I repented of my many serious sins, confessed, was absolved, and did penance. May that always be the case, that I may repent of all sin, confess as Christ told me to do, be absolved and be purified that Christ’s death for my salvation receive my “yes”.

Paul told us to work out our salvation “in fear and trembling”. Paul himself worried about losing his salvation.

We know that Jesus spoke of the judgment of God, where people are placed on the right and on the left. Remember? Remember that those who did NOT give food to the hungry, etc. were told that “as often as you did NOT do this to the least of my brothers, you did NOT do it for Me” and were told to depart to hell?

Remember that Jesus told us that it would be harder for a camel to enter the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter heaven?

Remember Lazarus and the rich man? We are told of no specific CONCRETE sin of the rich man that sent him to hell. All we know is that Lazarus begged at his gates, but was not given anything. . .does that really seem “big enough” to send a man to hell? “Many are called but few are chosen”. . .not “all are called, all are chosen.”

“Try to enter through the narrow gate. For broad and wide is the road to destruction, and many are those who go there. . .”

Sin separates us from God. Final impenitence for sin separates us PERMANENTLY. . .not a question of God not giving us the gift of salvation through Christ (which He DID) but of us REJECTING that gift. . .

 

[Pax]

Alfie:

…
…
However, the Bible says that believers are all priests able to enter the “Holy of Holies.”

Well, not quite, but you are close to the truth in at least a couple of ways. The scriptures you refer to are most likely the following:

Hebrews 10:18-19
Where there is forgiveness of these, there is no longer any offering for sin. Therefore, brethren, since we have confidence to **enter the sanctuary ** by the blood of Jesus,

1 Peter 2:5
…and like living stones be yourselves built into a spiritual house, to be a holy priesthood, to offer spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.

1 Peter 2:9
But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God’s own people,

Obviously Christians are a priestly people but this does not negate the ministerial priesthood. The following is borrowed from a post that I submitted on another thread. I hope that it clarifies this issue for you.

Please note that both the Old and New Testaments share much in common. The OT covenants are a foreshadowing of the New Covenant.

Please compare the above verses to the following from the OT.

Exodus 19:5-6
Now therefore, if you will obey my voice and keep my covenant, you shall be my own possession among all peoples; for all the earth is mine, and you shall be to me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation. These are the words which you shall speak to the children of Israel."

Obviously, the Jews were a priestly people in the Old Covenant just as Christians are a priestly people in the New Covenant.The declaration that we are a “priestly people” does not negate the ministerial priesthood. After God makes the declaration in Exodus concerning the people as a kingdom of priests, he then tells Moses the following:

Exodus 19:22-25
And also let the priests who come near to the Lord consecrate themselves, lest the Lord break out upon them." And Moses said to the Lord, “The people cannot come up to Mount Sinai; for thou thyself didst charge us, saying, ‘Set bounds about the mountain, and consecrate it.’” And the Lord said to him, “Go down, and come up bringing Aaron with you; but do not let the priests and the people break through to come up to the Lord, lest he break out against them.” So Moses went down to the people and told them.

Exodus 28:1-3
"THEN BRING near to you Aaron your brother, and his sons with him, from among the people of Israel, to serve me as priests–Aaron and Aaron’s sons, Nadab and Abihu, Eleazar and Ithamar. And you shall make holy garments for Aaron your brother, for glory and for beauty. And you shall speak to all who have ability, whom I have endowed with an able mind, that they make Aaron’s garments to consecrate him for my priesthood.

Exodus 28:41
And you shall put them upon Aaron your brother, and upon his sons with him, and shall anoint them and ordain them and consecrate them, that they may serve me as priests.

Likewise in the New Covenant we have deacons, presbyters/priests, and bishops. This is the ministerial priesthood of the New Covenant and it is in no way negated by your contentions.

In the OT we read about Korah’s rebellion in Numbers 16:1-33. It says in part: "NOW KORAH the son of Izhar, son of Kohath, son of Levi, and Dathan and Abiram the sons of Eliab, and On the son of Peleth, sons of Reuben, took men; and they rose up before Moses, with a number of the people of Israel, two hundred and fifty leaders of the congregation, chosen from the assembly, well-known men; and they assembled themselves together against Moses and against Aaron, and said to them, “You have gone too far! For all the congregation are holy, every one of them, and the Lord is among them; why then do you exalt yourselves above the assembly of the Lord?” When Moses heard it, he fell on his face;
…
…
Moses responds to Korah with this]

And would you seek the priesthood also? Therefore it is against the Lord that you and all your company have gathered together; what is Aaron that you murmur against him?"

Later in the narrative we read that God destroys Korah and his followers that attempted to usurp the ministerial priesthood. Likewise there is a warning in the NT. In Jude 1:11-13 it says, " Woe to them! For they walk in the way of Cain, and abandon themselves for the sake of gain to Balaam’s error, and perish in Korah’s rebellion."

The only conclusion that can be drawn from the book of Jude concerning Korah’s rebellion is that there are those that would attempt to usurp the ministerial priesthood of the New Covenant just as Korah did in the Old Covenant. Any denial of the proper place of the ministerial priesthood in the New Covenant is synonymous with Korah’s rebellion.

 

[MrS]

Pax:

In the OT we read about Korah’s rebellion in Numbers 16:1-33. It says in part: "NOW KORAH the son of Izhar, son of Kohath, son of Levi, and Dathan and Abiram the sons of Eliab, and On the son of Peleth, sons of Reuben, took men; and they rose up before Moses, with a number of the people of Israel, two hundred and fifty leaders of the congregation, chosen from the assembly, well-known men; and they assembled themselves together against Moses and against Aaron, and said to them, “You have gone too far! For all the congregation are holy, every one of them, and the Lord is among them; why then do you exalt yourselves above the assembly of the Lord?” When Moses heard it, he fell on his face;
…
…
Moses responds to Korah with this]

And would you seek the priesthood also? Therefore it is against the Lord that you and all your company have gathered together; what is Aaron that you murmur against him?"

Later in the narrative we read that God destroys Korah and his followers that attempted to usurp the ministerial priesthood. Likewise there is a warning in the NT. In Jude 1:11-13 it says, " Woe to them! For they walk in the way of Cain, and abandon themselves for the sake of gain to Balaam’s error, and perish in Korah’s rebellion."

The only conclusion that can be drawn from the book of Jude concerning Korah’s rebellion is that there are those that would attempt to usurp the ministerial priesthood of the New Covenant just as Korah did in the Old Covenant. Any denial of the proper place of the ministerial priesthood in the New Covenant is synonymous with Korah’s rebellion.

Perhaps he need a copy of the Akins debate on the existance of the Ministerial Priesthood, as different to the priesthood of believers, as different from the High Priesthood of Jesus.

Or perhaps he was mislead by someone out of the Church who knows all about what is in the Church…

…what’s it all about, Alfie ???