Alien life form 'is here on Earth'

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skymania.com/wp/2010/11/alien…on-earth.html/

Sensation title, but the article explains that life emerged from a toxic lake. The microbes are based on arsenic, not the usual phosphorous.

I suppose the implications are that life on Earth may not be so unique in the universe. But I am a laymen, so what do I know? 😛
 
skymania.com/wp/2010/11/alien…on-earth.html/

Sensation title, but the article explains that life emerged from a toxic lake. The microbes are based on arsenic, not the usual phosphorous.

I suppose the implications are that life on Earth may not be so unique in the universe. But I am a laymen, so what do I know? 😛
Tons of Christians I know agree that life on Earth isn’t special, that’s why the argument is called Fine-Tuned Universe. The special things I see in life on Earth are:
  1. Intelligence
  2. Complexity
  3. Free Will
 
Ludicrous. The article claims this discovery “increases the odds” of life on other planets. The odds are what the odds are (for instance, number of total planets divided by number of total planets having life = odds that any planet will have life). Our discoveries don’t affect the odds one jot or tittle, only our appreciation of what the odds are.

I really wish they would stop this kind of self-aggrandizing grandstanting. They are as bad as the Christians who persist in announcing the next date for armageddon.
 
Personally, I think it’s real cool, but it’s not groundbreaking.

We’ve known for a long time that life can form in *very *extreme conditions, much more extreme than lack of phosphorus. The problem with this is that, while it may make the idea that life exists elsewhere more plausible, it gives us no insight into whether there could be *intelligent and complex *life. Extremophiles tend to not evolve very much. All of the extremophile species on this planet are extremely old, and go back millions and millions of years. They stay static and simple because the conditions and evolutionary pressures tend to not allow higher complexity. So this may make the idea of simple life-forms outside our planetary bounds more plausible, it doesn’t give much hope for intelligent life.

Either way, rational beings outside of our planet could only exist if God willed it and if He gave them rational souls.
 
Personally, I think it’s real cool, but it’s not groundbreaking.

We’ve known for a long time that life can form in *very *extreme conditions, much more extreme than lack of phosphorus.
This is true, but I believe what makes this particular discovery unique is that arsenic is actually able to replace phosphorus in the molecules of the amino acids in the DNA code. This isn’t just a life form that’s able to survive another way, like the deep sea life that survives off of chemosynthesis without use of the sun. This is literally a different way of writing the code that creates life.

news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20101202/sc_nm/us_arsenic_bacteria
 
This is true, but I believe what makes this particular discovery unique is that arsenic is actually able to replace phosphorus in the molecules of the amino acids in the DNA code. This isn’t just a life form that’s able to survive another way, like the deep sea life that survives off of chemosynthesis without use of the sun. This is literally a different way of writing the code that creates life.

news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20101202/sc_nm/us_arsenic_bacteria
Yeah, and I think that’s pretty cool. To me it seems to show that life really evolves and works according to general systems and forms, aside from the material constituency of the DNA. It seems to make DNA in a much more real sense information.

I don’t think it that surprising though. The reason is that phosphorus and arsenic are in the same group on the periodic table of chemical elements, so it seems like they would exhibit similar atomic properties. In the same way, I wouldn’t be that surprised if they found out life-forms could utilize silicon instead of carbon, since they exhibit similar properties. The reason I still think extremophiles like this would stay the same is because a lack of phosphorus would probably be a huge problem when things start getting more complex.
 
Ludicrous. The article claims this discovery “increases the odds” of life on other planets. The odds are what the odds are (for instance, number of total planets divided by number of total planets having life = odds that any planet will have life). Our discoveries don’t affect the odds one jot or tittle, only our appreciation of what the odds are.

I really wish they would stop this kind of self-aggrandizing grandstanting. They are as bad as the Christians who persist in announcing the next date for armageddon.
Yes, but the way the odds are calculated are based on the probability of reasonably Earth-like planets. The odds just got a bit better because we can stray a bit from the Earth-like model now toward planets with a much higher balance of arsenic then was thought possible. Granted, that doesn’t expand the odds tremendously, but over the vastness of the universe, the odds would likely inch up fractionally.
 
To me the larger question is, why is the lamestream media that by and large won’t even tell us what’s really going on on earth really care if there is alien life? Because arsenic creatures have next to nothing to do with the possibility of extraterrestrial life except to a sci-fi-obsessed culture such as ours that loves to pretend it knows far more than it actually does. Also, what praytell are “evolutionary pressures”? Look, why are we so scared to admit that we have no idea how life came about here on earth - it blows away all questions of probability - and we’re just trying to fit the universe into our tiny little heads because we’re so narcissistic and imbalanced in our lives, trying to fill the gap left by morality and childlike wonder by playing God anywhere we get the chance. Not to belittle the fun of speculation but without wonder and reverence speculation becomes oppressive. Take Climategate. When are we going to learn the difference between science and globalist propaganda? Because if survival were really our goal that’s what we would be doing. That and praying morning, noon and night that we’ll love God more. I think life is really simple to the pure of heart, and all things are revealed to those who are not, like Adam and Eve, obsessed with useless knowledge of Occult things. Let us seek wisdom and such things as aid our salvation and sanctification!
 
Ludicrous. The article claims this discovery “increases the odds” of life on other planets. The odds are what the odds are (for instance, number of total planets divided by number of total planets having life = odds that any planet will have life). Our discoveries don’t affect the odds one jot or tittle, only our appreciation of what the odds are.

I really wish they would stop this kind of self-aggrandizing grandstanting. They are as bad as the Christians who persist in announcing the next date for armageddon.
Absolutely Warrenton, that sort of nonsense is little better than looking for fairies and leprechauns. By the way, do you know how NASA ‘discovers’ new ‘earths’, that is, ‘planets with life’? Stars are points of light and telescopes cannot actually see suns and planets. No, they work on Newton’s ‘perturbation’ theory. Let me explain. When Newton was told his planets could not always be found on their supposed Keplerian elliptical curves, he invented the ‘perturbation’ theory to account for it. This theory is based on his gravity theory that each body pulls on the other., that is, a falling apple is pulled by the earth and wait for it, the earth is pulled towards the apple. Thus the sun pulls the planets and the planet pulls on the sun, supposedly causing a light shift towards the invisible planet that can be seen from earth. So, now they look for flicking stars and thus they say a planet is the cause. Never mind that there could be another reason for this movement in the light, never mind that in an expanding universe theory each star is supposedly moving away from us at the speed of light if not faster, making this light=flicking towards us impossible, they are stuck with Newton’s theory as gospel truth. Given the supposed origin for our sun, then really every sun should have a similar past and all should show ‘perturbations’ due to ‘planets’ But not all stars have this light shift, so they supposedly have no planets. Its all a bit iffy but NASA still get paid from the taxpayer and more NASA fanatics get excited at knowing something that will always remain no more than a fairy tale.

Finally, enough of all this NASA nonsense, where these guys actually get PAID to find ‘alien life’ and take humanity further from any belief of being created by God. God never leaves us ignorant and thus on Nov 14 1459. Pope Pius II in his teaching of ‘Cum sicui’ declared

‘That God created another world than this one…’ CONDEMNED (Denz. 717c)
 
Absolutely Warrenton, that sort of nonsense is little better than looking for fairies and leprechauns. By the way, do you know how NASA ‘discovers’ new ‘earths’, that is, ‘planets with life’? Stars are points of light and telescopes cannot actually see suns and planets. No, they work on Newton’s ‘perturbation’ theory. Let me explain. When Newton was told his planets could not always be found on their supposed Keplerian elliptical curves, he invented the ‘perturbation’ theory to account for it. This theory is based on his gravity theory that each body pulls on the other., that is, a falling apple is pulled by the earth and wait for it, the earth is pulled towards the apple. Thus the sun pulls the planets and the planet pulls on the sun, supposedly causing a light shift towards the invisible planet that can be seen from earth. So, now they look for flicking stars and thus they say a planet is the cause. Never mind that there could be another reason for this movement in the light, never mind that in an expanding universe theory each star is supposedly moving away from us at the speed of light if not faster, making this light=flicking towards us impossible, they are stuck with Newton’s theory as gospel truth. Given the supposed origin for our sun, then really every sun should have a similar past and all should show ‘perturbations’ due to ‘planets’ But not all stars have this light shift, so they supposedly have no planets. Its all a bit iffy but NASA still get paid from the taxpayer and more NASA fanatics get excited at knowing something that will always remain no more than a fairy tale.

Finally, enough of all this NASA nonsense, where these guys actually get PAID to find ‘alien life’ and take humanity further from any belief of being created by God. God never leaves us ignorant and thus on Nov 14 1459. Pope Pius II in his teaching of ‘Cum sicui’ declared

‘That God created another world than this one…’ CONDEMNED (Denz. 717c)
There is a certain irony in this, coming from a man who’s nickname is also the name of one of NASA’s most famous interplanetary probes…
 
Actually fairies are slightly realer than extraterrestrial life forms (if J. R. R. Tolkien is to be believed): ask anyone who’s farmed the same land for generations.
 
To me the larger question is, why is the lamestream media that by and large won’t even tell us what’s really going on on earth really care if there is alien life? Because arsenic creatures have next to nothing to do with the possibility of extraterrestrial life except to a sci-fi-obsessed culture such as ours that loves to pretend it knows far more than it actually does. Also, what praytell are “evolutionary pressures”? Look, why are we so scared to admit that we have no idea how life came about here on earth - it blows away all questions of probability - and we’re just trying to fit the universe into our tiny little heads because we’re so narcissistic and imbalanced in our lives, trying to fill the gap left by morality and childlike wonder by playing God anywhere we get the chance. Not to belittle the fun of speculation but without wonder and reverence speculation becomes oppressive. Take Climategate. When are we going to learn the difference between science and globalist propaganda? Because if survival were really our goal that’s what we would be doing. That and praying morning, noon and night that we’ll love God more. I think life is really simple to the pure of heart, and all things are revealed to those who are not, like Adam and Eve, obsessed with useless knowledge of Occult things. Let us seek wisdom and such things as aid our salvation and sanctification!
Why do we care about the universe we live in? Are you saying that God created a beautiful, wondrous, magnificent, awesome universe, but we are not supposed to be interested in it? We are not supposed to learn about it? We are not supposed to care about it?

There are some people who look at the world and cannot understand how it could come to be. They see their lack of understanding as wondrous and mystical and hope to protect their ignorance. They find beauty in the world through not knowing, through ignorance.

Others, when confronted with the unknown, take a different approach. They say “We don’t know now, but lets find out.” Instead of finding wonder in their bewilderment, they seek to find answers and find way more wonder in that. Unlocking the mysteries of the universe can be far more amazing than simply staring at them and scratching our heads.

We can be amazed by the wide variety of life on Earth. Or, we can learn about evolution and be amazed at how it came to be. We do not lose our appreciation of the diversity of life, but gain appreciation of it, and its process.

To me, knowing is FAR more amazing then not knowing.

I suppose we could just focus on our daily simple activities and concern ourselves only with our survival. We could then go back to not knowing about medicine, not knowing about physics, not knowing about chemistry. But I think knowing things have proven to be far more useful then not knowing, and we cannot know if we do not try to learn. It is not playing God. It is trying to know God and His creation.
 
If it is truly knowing first God and then his creation, well and good, that is knowledge rightly ordered. In fact, to know God is to know all. God’s level of knowledge is such that He need only look at Himself to know everything. God was going to share his knowledge with Adam and Eve, but their impatience and hubris (the original “spoiled brats”) got the better of them. But this story regenerates itself in every day and age. Your view of human nature is blithe and skewed, for there are two ways of approaching knowledge. Knowledge is a double-edged sword just as money and power (for knowledge is indeed power) can be good but usually are evil when in the hands of the immature. Knowledge founded in wonder tends toward the wisdom of humility, while knowledge founded in curiosity tends toward the folly of hubris. This is what Tolkien’s classic The Lord of the Rings really deals with. Wonder is not founded in ignorance as the self-absorbed science-worshipers are wont to claim. Wonder is founded in humility and patience. “The fear of the Lord is the beginning of all wisdom.” But I suppose if your religion really is “always learning” as you claim you’ll eventually show an interest in spiritual things even if not as yet. Premature knowledge is self-defeating. Patience is the key to gaining incremental, progressive knowledge of the facts. Many today buy into crackpot theories: Hollow Earth Theory, Reptilian Shapeshifter Theory, Macroevolution Theory (Microevolution, better known as adaptation and mutation, is observable, and touters of the religion of Macroevolutionism love nothing more than to muddy the waters by labeling their opponents as idiots who don’t believe in even Microevolution which, as I’ve said, is a phenomenon better known to well-adjusted scientists as adaptation and mutation, and so public discourse goes nowhere which is exactly what Neopagan Communists are counting on). All of these have their root cause in Atlantean lore, for even Plato himself posited a theory of evolution; Darwin simply did it in a way the men of his time could buy into; Darwin was little more than an updater of ancient “secrets.” If anyone seriously wants to learn the differences between science and the Occult I heartily recommend a thorough reading of A History of Magic and the Occult (originally entitled Mirror of Magic). Not all that glitters is gold, and not all that calls itself “knowledge” has so much as a leg to stand on.
 
‘That God created another world than this one…’ CONDEMNED (Denz. 717c)
Very cool post! 👍

It’s as though the science we have isn’t good enough. Everything has to be “sensationalized.”
 
Yes, but the way the odds are calculated are based on the probability of reasonably Earth-like planets. The odds just got a bit better because we can stray a bit from the Earth-like model now toward planets with a much higher balance of arsenic then was thought possible. Granted, that doesn’t expand the odds tremendously, but over the vastness of the universe, the odds would likely inch up fractionally.
Absolutely. The key is “the way the odds are calculated.” But astonishingly, that is not how the article read. The calculations, and the assumptions behing them are fascinating, as Cassini and J have mentioned.

Rather than take the opportunity to use a new discovery to demonstrate something true, it is being spun in a way to create more ignorance. :mad:
 
There is a certain irony in this, coming from a man who’s nickname is also the name of one of NASA’s most famous interplanetary probes…
Well spotted Rolltide, but without his permission. I have no doubt he would condone proper scientific investigation but not anti-Genesis propaganda NASA (and the Vatican Observatory) indulges in. Here is a little info on Cassini.

Giovanni Domenico Cassini, ( 16125-1712) was without doubt God’s astronomer, the greatest observer of his or any era, a man who can be said to be the last of the truly great Catholic geocentricists. Now while the name Cassini will ring a faint bell with astronomers, surveyors, a few historians and some NASA Saturn probe fans, the world at large will never have been told of him. We must remember that even history belongs to the victors, and the Earthmovers are no exception. That then, is why he is not a household name like Copernicus, Galileo, Kepler or Newton. No man, no matter how qualified, whose reputation and work challenges that of the Copernican establishment now ensconced in both Church and State could be allowed his proper place in history.

Domenico Cassini’s talent as a surveyor was also well known. In 1657 he was asked by none other than Pope Alexander VII to resolve a dispute regarding the flow of the River Reno between Bologna and Ferrara that was causing flooding. For the next six years Cassini was occupied with similar work around the Papal States, spending only a little of his time at astronomical studies.

Cassini’s reputation spread far and wide. At that time King Louis XIV of France had approved a new Académie Royale des Sciences at Paris. The King’s great Minister, Colbert, with the prestige of the Académie in mind, sought to attract to France several famous foreign scientists such as Christiaan Huygens to work at the Academy. In 1667, he asked Domenico Cassini to join them in building and running a great observatory. Cassini decided to go for a little while, but the Pope refused him permission for he was considered too valuable to Rome at the time. Pope Alexander VII died in late 1667 and the new pope, Clement IX, did let the loyal and Catholic Cassini go ‘on loan’ to the Frankish Sun King. Cassini left for France on 25 February 1669. Delighted with the superb conditions and instruments at the Paris observatory, he was soon down to work. Cassini made many discoveries including.

Cassini’s discoveries were many. He opposed Newton at every turn, including falsifying theories his ‘laws’ were based on, including the shape of the earth. Olaus Rōmer, in his famous 1675 declaration that light has a finite speed, actually used the tables published in Cassini’s Ephemerides Bononienses Mediceorem Siderum (1668). Cassini was the one who discovered the speed of light but was waiting for further confirmation of it before publishing his findings.

Cassini was a loyal son of the Catholic Church. He had, we note, the charity and kindness of a saint, and that his respect for his contemporaries and their work, plus a modesty of his own, reached ‘miraculous proportions’. His humility caused him to avoided adulation and he presented his findings with the least fuss. After he died, his friend said of him:

‘We are delighted and lucky to have you Monsieur [the Academy’s secretary Mr de Fontenelle]. Who could have represented as you Domenicio Cassini’s worth? He was truly what we must call a rare man. His astronomical discoveries were good enough to deserve him this name: but he attained it with many other proud achievements. However clever he may have been, he was very assiduous for reading. After having spent the night reading in the brilliant book of sky, he made use of his days to consult the imperfect mediations of other astronomers from every language and every country; he really knew more than what they could have said but he was looking for what had been said all the same. He sought not only to know the real system of the world, but to study and guess the system that the ancients or the Tartars could have imagined; to grasp past, present and even future, not by frivolous predictions about independent elements in stars, but, by infallible calculations of their movements, to fix up to the so-called loss of the comet, it’s what we’ve seen him do and that nobody has done before him.
But, in the middle of this so astounding knowledge, we’ve seen inside him an even more miraculous modesty. People all over have admired him; the idolatrous centuries would have built temples to him, yet he was the only one who seemed to ignore his merit. Who has ever been so simple in his manners, so reserved in his speeches, so shy in what he knew better, so sweet with those he knew the less? The rise in his genius gave in the goodness of his heart, more pleasant than admirable, and more humble than scientist. Very different from these Chinese blinds who don’t know other good except sky, he only saw in sky the invisible God of sky. Religious observer of the slightest duties, his consistency was obvious and was spreading in everything. Friend of the easiest company, adorable father, academician sincerely liking all his colleagues, and universally loved by everyone, he had known how to hide his superiority with his sweetness, to skin the science of all its swelling, and to be indoctrinated only by religion.
What a loss to lose such a great man, if he hadn’t left us a son and a nephew in whom we already see him come back to life. I won’t extend in their praise; their works will do this better than me. I will neither start yours, Monsieur, unless you want to lend me the talent to praise you with such a dignity as you praise others.’
 
Hereunder from J.D. Cassini’s: The Progress of Astronomy and its Use for Geography and in Navigation, Paris, 1693, p.1 a little knowledge Catholics should know.

‘There is no room for doubt that Astronomy was invented at the beginning of the World. As there is nothing more noteworthy than the regularity of movement among these great luminous bodies that turn unceasingly around the Earth, it is natural to think that one of the first interests of men was to consider their course and observe their periods. But mere curiosity alone was not solely responsible for leading men to set themselves astronomical speculations, for it can be maintained that necessity as well obliged them. For should one not observe the seasons that vary by the movement of the Sun, it would be impossible to make a success of agriculture; were one to fail to note the suitable times for travel, one could establish no Business; should one not have determined once for all the length of the month and the year, there could be neither order established between civil affairs, nor could days be marked out for religious purposes: hence as agricultural farming, commerce, politics and even religion cannot do without Astronomy, it is obvious that men must have been obliged to study this science right from the World’s beginning….
After the Deluge, mankind, having been dispersed throughout the world, the Kings of each people took great care to cultivate astronomy, as the historians of all nations attest. Uranus, King of the peoples that first inhabited the shores of the Atlantic Ocean, was considered to be of the race of the gods because he had a special knowledge of the skies. Zoroastrian, King of the Bactrian, is only so well known because he excelled in astronomy. The first Kings of China acquired for themselves an immortal glory, for having made 4000 years ago, that is to say, shortly after the Flood, many astronomical observations that the Chinese have conserved to this day.’

Astronomy then, became the science of Emperors and Kings; the first and most important developed natural science for mankind before and after the global flood. Domenico Cassini, following a thorough research of the world’s oldest and rarest books on the subject, goes on to tell us how astronomy allowed and assisted man to venture over the great landmasses from Spain to China while at the same time enabled them to voyage throughout the seas and great oceans of the earth. He shows how maps of the world were created with astronomical help, and how this same art of measuring led Alexander and his army deep into territories ‘that nature seems to have hidden away.’ But these discoveries were only the prelude to those of the New World. Christopher Columbus, on the basis of the knowledge he had of astronomy and the measurements determined by the astronomers of Almamon, and what he had learned in the books of Ptolemy, went straight west, taking care always to observe the position of the sun by day and of the fixed stars by night. This precaution kept him from straying, for those who have written his biography say that the observations of the sky made him see with his telescope a variant that was unknown to him, and also helped him to realign himself unto the night course throughout the year. Once trade and commerce resulted, nations and men gained great wealth. Astronomy, it seems, was power, and no wonder the men that excelled in it were revered and sometimes treated as gods. But there was yet a higher purpose to astronomy.

‘To what we have said on the usefulness of astronomy, one can add the advantages that have been drawn and continue to be drawn every day for the propagation of the Faith, because it is by the use and protection afforded by this science, that those dedicated to preaching the Gospel to the Infidel, penetrate the furthest countries and live there not only in safety but even with full freedom to preach the truths of the faith, that they draw the admiration of peoples, and they work their way into familiarity with the powers that be, and they even win the favour of Sovereigns. Thus this science has opened up to missionaries the vast Empire of China, whose entry was forbidden by the laws of the land and for reasons of State to all foreigners, and it was used to obtain permission to build churches there and publicly to practice the true faith. This is why the King [Louis XIV] wanted the missionaries who go preach the Gospel to China, in the Kingdom of Siam, and in the other states of the East Indies, to be instructed in the ways the Academy makes astronomical observations, and that they take from the Academy very ample memories of what they have to do and remember in their travels.
The observations that these missionaries have already made in conjunction with the Academy and which they have sent back to it, compared with those made at the same time at the observatory, have already communicated great lights; and it is not to be doubted that progress will continue to be made in these far-off countries, greatly to contribute to the progress of astronomy; and if the persons who work at this science in foreign lands set up correspondence with the Academy and send it their observations, as the Academy offers likewise to share with them its own; there is reason to hope that in a short while not only astronomy, but also geography and the art of navigation will be raised to their highest perfection. -----J.D. Cassini, op. cit., 1693, pp.51-52
 
skymania.com/wp/2010/11/alien…on-earth.html/

Sensation title, but the article explains that life emerged from a toxic lake. The microbes are based on arsenic, not the usual phosphorous.

I suppose the implications are that life on Earth may not be so unique in the universe. But I am a laymen, so what do I know? 😛
Wearing my chemist hat, I don’t find this article credible. No data is given on whether arsenic replaces phosphorus in DNA, RNA or biologically important molecules–ATP and ADP. The conversion of ATP to ADP in biochemical enzymatic cycles supplies energy. There is no way arsenic would be able to do this energetically. I suggest the claims be taken with a large dose of Lake Mono salt. It may be either that the analysis was contaminated or the bacteria have found a way to efficiently utilize phosphorus.
Anselm
 
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