Alienation in Tridentine Mass Community

[anonymous1995]

I started attending the Traditional Latin Mass at the Tridentine Mass Community of my local diocese four months ago. Normally I go there twice a month.

What I feel is that there are some stubborn old men and ladies there who are unfriendly and alienate new attendants. They simply ignore your existence and call out to their friends. I am not trying to label anyone, but I feel that the community is like a small circle party. When I say hi to them after Mass, they just walk past and turn their head round which make me feel uneasy.

Having said that, I really enjoy the traditional Latin Mass - an enriching spiritual experience.

 

[YoungTradCath]

This is a widespread but semi-isolated issue within Latin Mass communities. By widespread I mean just that, and by semi-isolated I mean that it usually exists as a subset of the larger Latin Mass community. Most Latin Mass communities as a whole are not like this, but most of them also have this particular subset of people.

 

[Reborn2013]

Turning around and walkin away from someone when said hi to is highly anti social behaivor, and very, very rare in American culture. Statistically, it seems strange that there would be a number of these people in the same place. You may be dealing with people suffering from mental illness.

 

[Reborn2013]

This is a widespread but semi-isolated issue within Latin Mass communities. By widespread I mean just that, and by semi-isolated I mean that it usually exists as a subset of the larger Latin Mass community. Most Latin Mass communities as a whole are not like this, but most of them also have this particular subset of people.

I have to disagree with you, after 10+ years of attending TLM at numerous venues (when I travel, I make a point to go to the local Latin mass). Recognizing me as a foreigner, it is very common for TLM parishioners to go out of their way to greet me and make me feel welcome. Not sure if they are just nice folks or see me as a recent/potential tradvert to prostilize (for lack of a better word).

Bottom line is that trad communities are very welcoming and overflowing with pleasant people.

 

[Hobbes42]

When I used to go to a Latin Mass, I found the same type of atmosphere-Outsiders not welcome. Basically to sum it up-Why are you here?

 

[JRTJ]

I myself like the TLM but I also cherish a well-done Novus Ordo Mass in Latin. My love for the TLM stems from its use of ad orientem worship, which is really hard to find nowadays in parishes celebrating the Novus Ordo. One of the few exceptions is the London Oratory, which celebrates a beautiful Solemn High Mass ad orientem on Sundays, which is the Mass I usually attend.

Having expressed my love for the TLM, it IS also true that there is a certain wing of those who call themselves Traditionalist Catholics that is, ironically, hostile to Tradition (which they say they are defending) due to their unwillingness to submit to the authority of Rome (see SSPX).

It seems that the people you were dealing with belong to this wing, which is openly hostile to Catholics that they see as not being totally on their side. They are close-minded and go against the principle of Continuity promoted by the great Benedict XVI’s Papacy.

They are schismatic in the same way that the Theology of Liberation and hippie-style Catholics are to Holy Mother Church.

Let’s remember that in this moment of great challenge for the Church, the first thing Satan wants to see is division within our House. We must all strive to put our legitimate differences aside and fully partake in the Treasure of the Church. Remember, the Church is Universal - there is space for everyone (provided they share its teachings of course).

Sorry I went a bit off on a tangent there, but I just wanted you to understand where I am coming from.

God bless

 

[moon1234]

I myself like the TLM but I also cherish a well-done Novus Ordo Mass in Latin. My love for the TLM stems from its use of ad orientem worship, which is really hard to find nowadays in parishes celebrating the Novus Ordo. One of the few exceptions is the London Oratory, which celebrates a beautiful Solemn High Mass ad orientem on Sundays, which is the Mass I usually attend.

Having expressed my love for the TLM, it IS also true that there is a certain wing of those who call themselves Traditionalist Catholics that is, ironically, hostile to Tradition (which they say they are defending) due to their unwillingness to submit to the authority of Rome (see SSPX).

It seems that the people you were dealing with belong to this wing, which is openly hostile to Catholics that they see as not being totally on their side. They are close-minded and go against the principle of Continuity promoted by the great Benedict XVI’s Papacy.

They are schismatic in the same way that the Theology of Liberation and hippie-style Catholics are to Holy Mother Church.

Let’s remember that in this moment of great challenge for the Church, the first thing Satan wants to see is division within our House. We must all strive to put our legitimate differences aside and fully partake in the Treasure of the Church. Remember, the Church is Universal - there is space for everyone (provided they share its teachings of course).

Sorry I went a bit off on a tangent there, but I just wanted you to understand where I am coming from.

God bless

I think many people, no matter where you go, act this way. I find this same attitude in many N.O. parishes. Some people have clicks, most remember them from high school. MANY people never grow out of this attitude. It is ironic that many people attribute bad social behavior to the Mass that people attend.

We have a few people like that in our parish. They have been that way their whole life. Try not to take it personally. EVERYONE is not like that.

 

[JRTJ]

I think many people, no matter where you go, act this way. I find this same attitude in many N.O. parishes. Some people have clicks, most remember them from high school. MANY people never grow out of this attitude. It is ironic that many people attribute bad social behavior to the Mass that people attend.

We have a few people like that in our parish. They have been that way their whole life. Try not to take it personally. EVERYONE is not like that.

I totally agree. There are fringes though, on both sides of the aisle, that exploit the particular form of the Mass they favour as an emblem to further their political purposes within the Church . The Holy Father pointed this out quite well in ‘The Big Interview’ a few weeks ago. So, in some minor cases, you will find that bad social behaviour stems from the particular for of Mass they attend. Of course, those are in a tiny minority, and I’m sorry I haven’t made myself clear in the last post.

A balance is needed between both Liturgical wings of the Church (by both wings I mean the Extroardinary form and the - well-done - Ordinary Form, leaving out clown masses and liturgical dance masses - those need to be dealt with severely by Church authorities), and I think this was the main reason at the basis of Summorum Pontificum. When either side advocates for the total abolishment of the form of Mass they don’t like, it becomes dangerous ground and threatens the Unity of the Church. Extremists on both sides may be hostile toward people who they perceive as not being on their side of the issue (just look at certain internet blogs!!), and I think this is the main factor that the OP must bear in mind when considering why he was welcomed so coldly in the parish in question.

 

[Anthony86]

I started attending the Traditional Latin Mass at the Tridentine Mass Community of my local diocese four months ago. Normally I go there twice a month.

What I feel is that there are some stubborn old men and ladies there who are unfriendly and alienate new attendants. They simply ignore your existence and call out to their friends. I am not trying to label anyone, but I feel that the community is like a small circle party. When I say hi to them after Mass, they just walk past and turn their head round which make me feel uneasy.

That is unfortunate. Don’t let it hold you back, though; maybe they’re just not used to new faces, or perhaps there’s something unfortunate to the history of this particular community which accounts for the closed atmosphere. My first experience with a TLM community was quite different; several people came on so strong (inviting me to dinner right away etc), that I felt rather awkward…

Having said that, I really enjoy the traditional Latin Mass - an enriching spiritual experience.

 

[Tous_Logous]

I started attending the Traditional Latin Mass at the Tridentine Mass Community of my local diocese four months ago. Normally I go there twice a month.

What I feel is that there are some stubborn old men and ladies there who are unfriendly and alienate new attendants. They simply ignore your existence and call out to their friends. I am not trying to label anyone, but I feel that the community is like a small circle party. When I say hi to them after Mass, they just walk past and turn their head round which make me feel uneasy.

Having said that, I really enjoy the traditional Latin Mass - an enriching spiritual experience.

This is quite common in human society, and is not specific to your case. It can be really hard trying to introduce yourself to people you may not know so well or people who don’t want to talk.

I had a case similar like this happen to me, but not in Church. I was still in college and wanted to join one of the clubs at my school. I went as soon as the semester started. I didn’t know anyone. No one introduced themselves to me and as an introvert, I felt socially awkward. I had to speak out and I made 2 friends, but everyone else didn’t want to get to know me. There were “groups,” ie cliques at this club.

It was so divided that you could see the same people every week going to sit in the same corner of the room and being with the same group of people. For shame on me, I did it too. One of the reasons I eventually stopped going was because I felt un-welcomed and the division that existed in the club itself (I was told it wasn’t always this way). I was told later by one of my friends who had been at the club one night that one of the members asked, “Who is that girl who never talks to anyone?” He couldn’t believe it, because I did talk to people there and I made some friends.

Just goes to show you that when you have tight-knit social groups like this (no matter where you go), you’re going to feel un-welcomed. It’s hard for us introvert people; people like me really want to make friends and conversation with people but I often don’t trust most people to approach them.

 

[aTraditionalist]

Where is this occurring exactly? Outside, parking lot, in the chapel?

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[Elizabeth502]

When I used to go to a Latin Mass, I found the same type of atmosphere-Outsiders not welcome. Basically to sum it up-Why are you here?

When I used to go to certain N.O. parishes,

I found the same type of atmosphere-Outsiders not welcome. Basically to sum it up-Why are you here?

I have never experienced that, ever, in a TLM community. What I have experienced, however, is a uniformity of respect for the form and the occasion, with a lack of welcome for an overt disrespect and a happy-clappy approach to the Mass. Naturally. The Mass is not a hootenanny. You enter the holy presence of the Blessed Sacrament, you’re expected to behave as an adult with silence and decorum, not like an uncontrolled child.

(Not saying that Hobbes42 does so!) Please don’t misunderstand me. Rather, I’m saying that on occasion I have seen disrespectful people approach a TLM with the same expectation of informality, noise, and casual behavior that is more often present at many N.O. Masses. That’s all. Such inappropriate behavior is unwelcome.

As a parallel, if I were to attend, as a guest, a Mass of a religious order, I would expect a level of decorum on my own behavior due to the priorities of that congregation and how they celebrate the Mass, pray the LOTH, etc. There are many different occasions and circumstances calling for different styles of conformity and respect.

I’m sorry that Hobbes experienced what he did. That conflicts with my experience and obviously those of others on this thread and on many other forums.

 

[Cristiano]

I started attending the Traditional Latin Mass at the Tridentine Mass Community of my local diocese four months ago. Normally I go there twice a month.

What I feel is that there are some stubborn old men and ladies there who are unfriendly and alienate new attendants. They simply ignore your existence and call out to their friends. I am not trying to label anyone, but I feel that the community is like a small circle party. When I say hi to them after Mass, they just walk past and turn their head round which make me feel uneasy.

Having said that, I really enjoy the traditional Latin Mass - an enriching spiritual experience.

I have sen the same problem in a parish where the offer only the O.F. and it has nothing to do with being part of a traditional or a liberal group. It has only to do with being part of a clique or not.

 

[Elizabeth502]

THIS

I have sen the same problem in a parish where the offer only the O.F. and it has nothing to do with being part of a traditional or a liberal group. It has only to do with being part of a clique or not.

 

[triumphguy]

I started attending the Traditional Latin Mass at the Tridentine Mass Community of my local diocese four months ago. Normally I go there twice a month.

What I feel is that there are some stubborn old men and ladies there who are unfriendly and alienate new attendants. They simply ignore your existence and call out to their friends. I am not trying to label anyone, but I feel that the community is like a small circle party. When I say hi to them after Mass, they just walk past and turn their head round which make me feel uneasy.

Having said that, I really enjoy the traditional Latin Mass - an enriching spiritual experience.

They could be deaf or hard of hearing, or not sure that you’ve spoken to them.

 

[anonymous1995]

Where is this occurring exactly? Outside, parking lot, in the chapel?

Posted from Catholic.com App for Android

It happened before Mass in the Church.

Another sidetrack story: The choir practised singing Missa Regia in preparation for next week’s funeral Mass. Although I was not a choir singer, I saw him holding a stack of scores so I thought I could get one. In deep shock after hearing my polite inquiry, he averted and ran away. It was such an awkward moment when the congregation behind me stared at me and I felt super embarrassed.

In another Sunday Mass, the choir director told the laity that there was insufficient time to practise singing the Eucharistic Hymn. Some old men yelled,’ Then we better not sing it!’ Which convulsed me with astonishment. Adoro Te Devote is such a well-known hymn that I don’t think there will be problem for those ‘traditional’ old Catholics.

From time to time these incidents happened. Which quivered my courage to attend TLM. As a young Catholic who very much appreciate the grandeur and solemnity of the TLM. These unpleasant experiences annihilate some of my motivation to get up early and travel for an hour to TLM. I learn all the Latin responses well, suit up or dress very modestly every time and read chant notations or polyphonic music sheets well. I can follow the whole Mass well. And then I am regarded an ‘alien’.

 

[Elizabeth502]

It happened before Mass in the Church.

Another sidetrack story: The choir practised singing Missa Regia in preparation for next week’s funeral Mass. Although I was not a choir singer, I saw him holding a stack of scores so I thought I could get one. In deep shock after hearing my polite inquiry, he averted and ran away. It was such an awkward moment when the congregation behind me stared at me and I felt super embarrassed.

In another Sunday Mass, the choir director told the laity that there was insufficient time to practise singing the Eucharistic Hymn. Some old men yelled,’ Then we better not sing it!’ Which convulsed me with astonishment. Adoro Te Devote is such a well-known hymn that I don’t think there will be problem for those ‘traditional’ old Catholics.

From time to time these incidents happened. Which quivered my courage to attend TLM. As a young Catholic who very much appreciate the grandeur and solemnity of the TLM. These unpleasant experiences annihilate some of my motivation to get up early and travel for an hour to TLM. I learn all the Latin responses well, suit up or dress very modestly every time and read chant notations or polyphonic music sheets well. I can follow the whole Mass well. And then I am regarded an ‘alien’.

I am sorry for those experiences of yours.

The only thing I would say is this:
Try to ignore the ill behavior of others. For example (the reverse), when I experience inappropriate behavior at N.O. Masses (a weekly occurrence), I “retreat” mentally and physically. That is whether such behavior is the result of social cliques (frequent) or rude Mass behavior (frequent). Who cares if others are uncharitable or merely even lacking in manners? God still wants you there and me there, and our separate individual encounters with Him are no less valid and valuable because one other or some others behave like jerks or ignoramuses. Whatever Mass form that is.

What the Mass itself is, is not a social occasion, within the liturgy itself. It is community prayer, whether in Latin or in English or in another language. Together and individually, our hearts and minds should be directed toward the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, and not whether so-and-so (at that Mass) doesn’t like us, does like us, or is not justified in his behavior toward us.

Let us not restrict our Mass choices to ones which “welcome” or “accept” me (or you). If the entire congregation rejects us, we have as much a right to be there as everybody else and anybody else. In all kinds of “community” environments (Boards, Council Meetings, etc.) there are people into power games. Generally, insecure people are those who make it their priority to dominate and exclude. If they were really secure about themselves they would be unthreatened by newcomers. Try to look upon it that way. (I do.) I’ve come to pity such people as lacking in a sense of self-worth, and deriving their sense of importance from their artificial “position” which they themselves have assumed within such communities.

(Translation: Ignore them.)

 

[triumphguy]

Suggestion: find the friendliest and most outgoing person there, and introduce yourself to them and ask them to introduce you to other people.

 

[Mike30]

It happened before Mass in the Church.

Another sidetrack story: The choir practised singing Missa Regia in preparation for next week’s funeral Mass. Although I was not a choir singer, I saw him holding a stack of scores so I thought I could get one. In deep shock after hearing my polite inquiry, he averted and ran away. It was such an awkward moment when the congregation behind me stared at me and I felt super embarrassed.

In another Sunday Mass, the choir director told the laity that there was insufficient time to practise singing the Eucharistic Hymn. Some old men yelled,’ Then we better not sing it!’ Which convulsed me with astonishment. Adoro Te Devote is such a well-known hymn that I don’t think there will be problem for those ‘traditional’ old Catholics.

From time to time these incidents happened. Which quivered my courage to attend TLM. As a young Catholic who very much appreciate the grandeur and solemnity of the TLM. These unpleasant experiences annihilate some of my motivation to get up early and travel for an hour to TLM. I learn all the Latin responses well, suit up or dress very modestly every time and read chant notations or polyphonic music sheets well. I can follow the whole Mass well. And then I am regarded an ‘alien’.

Well my young friend, the appropriate response is so basic and simple that I fail to see why you are even on this forum.

If you are so uncomfortable,distressed, unappreciated for the tremendous sacrifices that you are making on their behalf to even be there and embarrased to top it off don’t go.

Simple. Solves the problem quickly and easily and it doesn’t waste a lot of time. And if these people are as tremendously anti social as you have so indignitly pointed out, you won’t even be missed. Of course you could just hang around and make their lifes even more miserable if you want to.

As an aside, I am one of those, how did you say it, oh yes ‘traditional’ old Catholics, and I don’t know the entire hymn Adoro te devote and doubt I could sing it at all. One reason I was never in the choir.

Best wishes in whatever it is that you are really looking for.

 

[corsair]

You can find unfriendly people anywhere; including EF and OF parishes. My experience is that most folks are really pretty shy so they put up a defensive front. Same can be found in any organization or place where the public congregates.

I don’t worry about other people when at church. That’s not what I’m there for.