Alienation in Tridentine Mass Community

[M-Dent]

I understand. It may very well do that. But the relationship with the community or the type of community should in and of itself not be the primary reason for attending a specific Parish or a specific Mass. In fact, I would think that could actually lead almost to worshiping the community in a sense. In effect, celbrating the community and my place in it rather than celebrating the glory of God which can be done anywhere, alone or as a group.

I would think the risk of creating idols is much greater looking inward than outward. Due to the fact, the normative means God created for our Salvation is communal.

We are never truly alone worshipping God. The angels and communion of Saints are always present and worshipping with us when an authentic Liturgy is presented.

 

[ProVobis]

Yet they routinely spend most of their time alone, in some cases, all of their time alone. Being part of a spiritual community, yes. part of a physical community, maybe, in an indirect sense in many cases.

This is a good point. Christ did spend time with introverts as well as the extroverts. Some people just aren’t comfortable in a large-crowded areas. One should also note that even the SP only requires a stable group, not necessarily a thousand or even a hundred.

 

[jeanannemarie]

This is a widespread but semi-isolated issue within Latin Mass communities. By widespread I mean just that, and by semi-isolated I mean that it usually exists as a subset of the larger Latin Mass community. Most Latin Mass communities as a whole are not like this, but most of them also have this particular subset of people.

I believe this subset is quite prevalent in the Novus Ordo Mass, also. Is this topic worth commenting on? It sounds tattly and like it is meant to rile up more antagonism. There are other more important things to discuss. And before anyone here that disagrees invites me to read elsewhere, I am aware that I can do so. Thank you for allowing me to express my opinion.

 

[anonymous1995]

I believe this subset is quite prevalent in the Novus Ordo Mass, also. Is this topic worth commenting on? It sounds tattly and like it is meant to rile up more antagonism. There are other more important things to discuss. And before anyone here that disagrees invites me to read elsewhere, I am aware that I can do so. Thank you for allowing me to express my opinion.

First of all, I apologize if I have stirred up any antagonism which I don’t mean to do.

Talking about the alienation in the OF community, I have heard of this for long, and I assume many have more or less witnessed or experienced it before. So I open this thread just to express what I observed in my few TLM experiences.

Moderator, I think this thread should be closed. Things seem to be tangential. Thank you.

 

[Elizabeth502]

This is a good point. Christ did spend time with introverts as well as the extroverts.

It’s not just that he “spent time” with introverts. He Himself also went off to pray alone.

 

[ccmcmg]

I understand. It may very well do that. But the relationship with the community or the type of community should in and of itself not be the primary reason for attending a specific Parish or a specific Mass. In fact, I would think that could actually lead almost to worshiping the community in a sense. In effect, celbrating the community and my place in it rather than celebrating the glory of God which can be done anywhere, alone or as a group.

I understand that; but isn’t it important to interact with our fellow brethren? I’m not asking you over for dinner, but a sincere smile, or reply when spoken to isn’t that much to expect at the moment you are truly and physically filled with Christ. Can we not greet the Christ in each other? Plus, many of us could use the support, since we are all sinful, and having others that are sinful and trying to be holy is good for us.

There were 12 apostles, numerous disciples, and they had fellowship together, even after His death and Resurrection. Also, if man was meant to worship God by Himself, and did not ‘need’ a companion, wouldn’t there not have been Eve?

 

[Elizabeth502]

Our religion is not private.

This priest is a hermit: see how much he serves his local community, and how much he relies on them.

frdavidjones.com/

I think he is fulfilling his ministry as he sees fit, probably led by the Spirit. The guy gives homilies to children as well. Awesome. Only one other priest I know does this, and does it well. I have urged him to teach other priests to do that, too.

I do not think it is our place to make moral judgment calls against ordained priests who are living out their priesthood in the way that they individually discern accords with their spiritual gifts. God Bless him.

I’ll take one of these, who understands the irreplaceable value of prayer to an effective ministerial priesthood, over a hundred “busy with the world” parish priests who have carved out virtually no prayer time for themselves because their daily lives consist of one “activity” after another, punctuated by one daily Mass. (And by the way, when they do that, it shows, just as it shows with us lay people when our prayer lives are lacking.) It takes enormous spiritual strength to tend an entire flock.

Sacraments and prayer are actually the heart of the ministerial priesthood, and should always be the priority. Let lay people, deacons, and Religious administer the parish, to free up the priest to conform himself to Jesus, who spent quite a bit of time in prayer. In that way he can really minister as Jesus did. In any case, as I said, it’s not your call or my call whether Fr. David Jones is spending supposedly insufficient time playng Mr. Extrovert.

 

[ccmcmg]

First of all, I apologize if I have stirred up any antagonism which I don’t mean to do.

Talking about the alienation in the OF community, I have heard of this for long, and I assume many have more or less witnessed or experienced it before. So I open this thread just to express what I observed in my few TLM experiences.

Moderator, I think this thread should be closed. Things seem to be tangential. Thank you.

Many threads do hit a tangent or two, but it is a growth from the original few posts; so far people are respectful, and these are things worth discussing. I wouldn’t say you’ve stirred up antagonism as much as lively discussion; I imagine some of us are learning a thing or two, or broadening our thought horizons. Don’t worry about the course of the thread; I do know it can be frustrating when your topic seems like it’s being diluted or not considered in your very own thread. I have seen 1000 times worse on here and other forums.

God bless!

 

[TimothyH]

I would think the risk of creating idols is much greater looking inward than outward. Due to the fact, the normative means God created for our Salvation is communal.

We are never truly alone worshipping God. The angels and communion of Saints are always present and worshipping with us when an authentic Liturgy is presented.

M-Dent and Triumphguy are exactly right.

The idea that it is just me and Jesus at Mass is incorrect. The idea of Jesus and me religion is a truly modern invention, best left to the Evangelicals.

Israel rose and fell together. Their fate was always tied to each other. At the end of the day we are either in the Church - the covenant family of God - or we are not. When we sin injure the entire Body of Christ. When we practice virtue or suffer for Christ it is redemptive for the entire body of Christ. We are supposed to die for each other if called to do so.

I love to see the Narthex and parking lot full of people chatting before and after Mass. Black, white, fat, skinny, men, women, Asians, Anglo, and Hispanics, all together smiling, enjoying each others company, talking about the faith and making plans for next weekend. That’s God right there.

Even Carthusian hermits are required to spend a few hours every week with someone whether they like it or not. It is so they don’t go insane.

-Tim-

 

[triumphguy]

It’s not just that he “spent time” with introverts. He Himself also went off to pray alone.

But when Christ instituted the Eucharist He didn’t do it alone and by himself: it was in the midst of the greatest Jewish communal celebration, a feast, the Seder meal.

 

[ProVobis]

It’s not just that he “spent time” with introverts. He Himself also went off to pray alone.

Precisely.

At one point, for forty days straight.

 

[ProVobis]

The idea that it is just me and Jesus at Mass is incorrect. The idea of Jesus and me religion is a truly modern invention, best left to the Evangelicals.

Then why are mega-Churches becoming so popular?

I know they’re not Christian, but you want to see a parking lot and street full of cars and lots of talking outside, I can point you to a mosque, about a half mile from me.

 

[M-Dent]

Precisely.

At one point, for forty days straight.

Holy Scripture shares Jesus was led by the Spirit in the desert for 40 days where he fasted and prayed and was comforted by angels. Also, Jesus encountered Satan. Jesus was aware He was not alone.

Is it not possible we can lose sight of this at times and become isolated? Or even, in some rare case, influenced by spirits we are unaware of?

 

[triumphguy]

Precisely.

At one point, for forty days straight.

This was BEFORE His minstry right?

Did He institute the Eucharist there?
Did He preach or heal in the desert?
Did He gather disciples in the desert?

Where was the Church born? In the desert or a crowded room?

 

[triumphguy]

Then why are mega-Churches becoming so popular?

I know they’re not Christian, but you want to see a parking lot and street full of cars and lots of talking outside, I can point you to a mosque, about a half mile from me.

Possibly because one of the universal human experiences is of community?

I think the Bible says something about that.

 

[ProVobis]

Holy Scripture shares Jesus was led by the Spirit in the desert for 40 days where he fasted and prayed and was comforted by angels. Also, Jesus encountered Satan. Jesus was aware He was not alone.

Is it not possible we can lose sight of this at times and become isolated? Or even, in some rare case, influenced by spirits we are unaware of?

But that’s just it. When we have God, we are not alone.

And, yes, we have the devil. Mutiply that by a congregation full of people.

 

[sw85]

Likely not a very charitable assumption, maybe?

I think he’s on to something though, though “snobs” is not the word I’d have used, at least not in the typically negative sense. For instance I would readily describe myself as a “liturgical snob” the same way I’d describe myself as a “musical snob.” I have very particular tastes in liturgy, the way I have very particular tastes in music (in fact they coincide), and I react viscerally toward deviations from those tastes.

Of course, my experience has been that TLM attenders on average are at least as or more friendly than Catholics on average, and you find snobs attending the NO too. I wasn’t intending to describe a widespread trend, just the OP’s particular situation.

I think you’re right here. My own experience with TLM-goers, albeit pretty limited, is that they have tended to be more intelligent, better-mannered, better-dressed, better-spoken, etc., than the average Catholic or person in general. I also agree that this isn’t because of the TLM, rather I think they’re all features of a generally favorable orientation toward tradition in general, including traditional habits of behavior and personal conduct. The “intelligent” part is, I think, simply because it requires a pretty great exertion of mental resources to free yourself from the shackles of current trends in thought and behavior, so that the TLM, for reasons only accidental to itself, tends disproportionately to draw people who are in the right half of the IQ distribution.

 

[ProVobis]

Where was the Church born? In the desert or a crowded room?

That’s a rather interesting set of questions to ask.

That would be debatable, I’d say. Maybe God’s Church never had a beginning. What’s the theological answer?

 

[Mike30]

I understand that; but isn’t it important to interact with our fellow brethren? I’m not asking you over for dinner, but a sincere smile, or reply when spoken to isn’t that much to expect at the moment you are truly and physically filled with Christ. Can we not greet the Christ in each other? Plus, many of us could use the support, since we are all sinful, and having others that are sinful and trying to be holy is good for us.

There were 12 apostles, numerous disciples, and they had fellowship together, even after His death and Resurrection. Also, if man was meant to worship God by Himself, and did not ‘need’ a companion, wouldn’t there not have been Eve?

Interaction. If it happens, yes. If not no. I maintain that social interaction is not the main reason to attend a Mass or even a particular Parish. For that reason and that reason alone this weird notion of having to find a Parish that suits someone, seems strange.

As has often been pointed out on this forum, the Mass is the Mass. Period. The congregation is not the Mass. Traditional, conservative, charismatic, good fellowship, good music, welcoming, aloof etc etc all pale in relationship to the actual sacrifice of the Mass which in my humble opinion is why you should be there in the first place.

How the congregation acts or doesn’t act really shouldn’t matter if you are focused on that one act.

 

[triumphguy]

That’s a rather interesting set of questions to ask.

That would be debatable, I’d say. Maybe God’s Church never had a beginning. What’s the theological answer?

Pentecost is the birthday of the church. A crowded room full of scared people praying to the Risen Lord.

Acts 2:1-4
The Coming of the Holy Spirit

2 When the day of Pentecost had come, they were all together in one place. 2 And suddenly a sound came from heaven like the rush of a mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting. 3 And there appeared to them tongues as of fire, distributed and resting on each one of them. 4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.