Aliens and UFO'S

[tafan]

How would intelligent life in other places contradict anything in the bible or about God?

All of this is my own speculation, I realize it is not Church teaching, so don’t expect me to argue it strongly, but I will tell you what I am thinking:

By intelligent life, I mean life with a immortal soul, self-aware, etc.

1. the story of creation in Genesis, although admittedly not literal, does provide truth. And its hard to read it without coming to the conclusion that mankind is the summit of God’s creation in this physical universe (regardless of exactly how he created us)
2. I have read CS Lewis’s space trilogy novels where he tries to detail how other life, such as ours, could exist from a theological perspective. I think his three scenarios are correct: There is earth, where humans sinned and have do be saved. There is mars, where none of the inhabitants ever sinned. And then there is Venus, were the newly created Adam and Eve are being tested (this last one is really fascinating by the way). And on Venus, since creation happens after mankind, and God has become man, the inhabitants are made to be just like us. That is key. God became man. Jesus has two natures: human and divine. Not three natures: human and martian and divine.

I will readily admit God could have come up with another means of saving another fallen race besides an incarnation. I just don’t see it as very likely.

If they exist…the same God we worship, created them too, its really quite simple.

Of course this is true.

If you want proof of this kind of thing from someone within the CC itself, read some of the things Fr balducci , Br Cosmolango, Fr Malachi Martin, etc say about this…its extremely interesting.

Malachi Martin? I will pass. But I must ask, what do these author’s actually prove?

If you look around you will see many scientists and other experts in the area, say it is almost a mathematical certainty that other planets out there hold life

Now we are getting away from the theological and to the pure science of it all. That too is very unconvincing. I understand, as well has I suppose possible, the vastness of the universe. But simply saying because something exists once, and there is a very,very huge universe out there, it must occur again, is not convincing to me. Look at the number of species on our own planet, its a very large number. And there is only one of us. Great cities, wonderful music, fascinating literature, etc has all only been done by one, out of millions, of species.
Besides the statistical argument, scientists have exactly zero evidence of life, such as ours, elsewhere in the universe. Zero.

So I remain rather skeptical both from a theological and scientific point of view. I do not doubt that God has the power to create as many species with intelligence and immortal souls as He would desire, I simply doubt that He has done so.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

No I don’t think that. I think that it’s possible that there may exist aliens that possess an eternal soul. There’s nothing doctrinal to say that could not be the case.

And there’s nothing to suggest it could be the case. Man, animal and angel are outlined in revelation. Odd that you think it possible God just left the other part out knowing we would intersect.

It’s ludicrous.

Shal we discuss evolution of a dolphin with an eternal salvation story for it’s soul? Or baptize and ordain AI entities?

While ripe for Hollywood exploration in film ( and a welcome relief from all the remade storylines of today, it’s simply theologically impossible to entertain such ideas as reality.

Life, even intelligent life, may indeed exist, however a brother in Christ they will not be.
You’ve seen too many Star Wars movies! ( not that it’s a bad thing)

Coincidentally I caught the original planet of the apes the other day on TV. The theological points in the movie we’re lost on me 20 years ago…

 

[tafan]

Although not quite as dogmatic about it, I certainly tend to agree with Hoosier Daddy on this issue. There is another thread right now in the apologetics sub-forum where I gave some of my reasoning. Our reasoning is not that far off from each other.

I will add, besides some questionable statistical assumptions, we have absolutely zero scientific evidence for any intelligent life on other planets. Yes the universe is very, very large. But that does not mean that any one thing that occurs will be repeated. Millions monkey can type on keyboards for millions of years, and we will not get anything that approximates a Shakespeare play, or even a children’s book.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

No I don’t think that. I think that it’s possible that there may exist aliens that possess an eternal soul. There’s nothing doctrinal to say that could not be the case.

Could you please explore the theological principles of Xenu? Not the truthfulness of the story, but the principles you hold that might allow for the possibility.

 

[tafan]

IMO, the person who best explored the theological implications of alien life was CS Lewis in his space triology (mainly the first two novels). Its interesting, since life on Venus is created after the incarnation and the only way he could make it all work out was to make the new creatures human (I think their skin was a different color), because a physical being in the image and likeness of God had to be human after the incarnation. The Martians (there were actually three species on mars with immortal souls) were totally different than humans and each other in physical form. But they were an older race than humans so to be in the image and likeness of God, they only needed free will.

But Lewis did not address the problems with Genesis, which Hoosier Daddy points out. He also had to assume these races, although tested, did not fall.

I do highly recommend the second book, as its central theme is the test of man after creation (instead of not eating from a particular tree, they were commanded to not spend any night anywhere by on one of Venus’s many floating islands). The temptation of man is very well depicted and gives one a better appreciation for original sin.

 

[Usagi]

This is a just sample of quotes from high ranking people that seem to confirm a conspiracy…

** " We have, indeed, been contacted - even visited - by extraterrestrial beings, and the U.S. government, in collusion with the other national powers of the Earth, is determined to keep this information from the general public."
- Victor Marchetti - CIA
**

Okay, this is a direct claim of alien contact and a resulting coverup. Who is Mr. Manchetti and have we reason to believe him? Has he offered evidence beyond his word?

"Behind the scenes, high-ranking Air Force officers are soberly concerned about UFOs. But through official secrecy and ridicule, many citizens are led to believe the unknown flying objects are nonsense."
- Admiral Roscoe Hillenkoetter - 1st director CIA

Again, claims that there is something behind the sightings. Might claim that they are of intelligent origin (depending on what “intelligent displacement in the Argentine airspace” means). Specifically disclaims any knowledge of what they are or where they come from.

I’m not saying there are no aliens, or even no alien visitors. But all but one of the quoted individuals says nothing about that, and most of them boil down to what everyone already knows: people see objects in the sky that they can’t identify, and at least some of them seem to be real things, so we’re looking into it but have no idea what they are.

 

[AdamP88]

I don’t see how any of this is relevant. I never said it was likely, or even probable, that such life existed. Just that it is within the bounds of possibility that God created other species with immortal souls. I think your applications of theology to this are unnecessary. They either exist or they don’t. If they don’t, grand. If they do…well the book of science doesn’t contradict the book of faith.

 

[thistle]

This is a just sample of quotes from high ranking people that seem to confirm a conspiracy…

** " We have, indeed, been contacted - even visited - by extraterrestrial beings, and the U.S. government, in collusion with the other national powers of the Earth, is determined to keep this information from the general public."
- Victor Marchetti - CIA

"Behind the scenes, high-ranking Air Force officers are soberly concerned about UFOs. But through official secrecy and ridicule, many citizens are led to believe the unknown flying objects are nonsense."
- Admiral Roscoe Hillenkoetter - 1st director CIA

"We already have the means to travel among the stars, but these technologies are locked up in black projects and it would take an act of God to ever get them out to benefit humanity."
- Ben Rich, former Head of the Lockhead Skunk Works

"Information on UFOs, including sighting reports, has been and is still being officially withheld."
- Colonel Joseph J. Bryan III, founder of the CIA's psychological warfare staff, special assistance to the secretary of the Air Force, advisor to NATO

"The UFOs are no figment of the imagination."
- Lieutenant Colonel Louis Corbin Army Intelligence

"In concealing the evidence of UFO operations, the Air Force is making a serious mistake."
- Lt Colonel James McAshan USAF

"Flying saucers are real. Too many good men have seen them, that don't have hallucinations."
- Captain Eddie Richenbacker

"We frequently see unidentified objects in the sky. We are quietly investigating them."
- Lieutenent General Akira Hirano, Chief of Staff of Japan's Air Self-Defense Force

"The unidentified flying objects do exist. Their presence and intelligent displacement in the Argentine airspace has been proven. Their nature and origin is unknown and no judgement is made about them.
- Captain Engineer Omar R. Pagani, Argentine Navy

**

Please do not proceed with this. It is all nonsense. You even thought aliens might be in Genisis.
There are no aliens that have ever visited the earth. UFO’s are NOT alien spacecraft. Nobody has been contacted or abducted by aliens.

This is purely in the mind and fantasy land of some people.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

I don’t see how any of this is relevant. I never said it was likely, or even probable, that such life existed. Just that it is within the bounds of possibility that God created other species with immortal souls. I think your applications of theology to this are unnecessary. They either exist or they don’t. If they don’t, grand. If they do…well the book of science doesn’t contradict the book of faith.

For alien life to be rational beings capable of interstellar travel is one thing. I think it’s possible. And every living thing has a soul. But only man, and angels have eternal souls and only man exists physically in the physical universe with eternal souls. ( meaning angels have no body) alien life no matter how intelligent would fall into the theological realm of animal. But both man and animal are classified scientifically together. This is where I think you painted yourself into a corner.
For another being to be baptized or even have an eternal soul would have to be revealed. And the door for that is closed. The Church could not declare an eternal soul.
It would be hard convincing an alien that to go to heaven they would have to be baptized including the Second Person of the Trinity. A human, who was kind led by humans on earth, for the ET’s sins???

Again a fun posit. A great plot.
But a theological impossibility in Catholicism. B

But there really is s scientoligist or Mormon feel to your position.
Do some faiths do imagine that possibility.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

Apart from the theological problems come human nature problems. From documentaries on African tribes, to movies like MIB or even the gods must be crazy, or the ewoks in Star Wars. Primitive cultures tend to dietize advanced culture and should rational beings travel to here they would most certainly be the more technologically advanced. Perhaps even to the point i of working what we would only be able to call miracles. Perhaps medically advanced to immortality. Bilocation, with the help of a flex capacitor. We would be in the position of the Egyptian priests rather than Moses…
Most likely, we would, for a large part, be converted to thier faith if they had any…

Now if we go to them, that’s a different story…

 

[AdamP88]

I think you are overthinking this HD. Firstly, I don’t see how you can say that there would be rational beings that don’t have an immortal soul. The “image and likeness of God” that humans have is the rational part of the soul. That is what separates us from the other creatures God created. If there are beings that can reason, then they must have immortal souls as they are in the image and likeness of God as well.

It’s not really any more complicated than that.
When the Apostles started their mission were they aware that it would spread to South America, or even that people existed in South America? Probably not. It’s exactly the same thing. We might not be aware of other intelligent life, but if it exists, it stands to reason that it would be in God’s plan that all reasonable creatures (made in the image and likeness of God) should be converted.

And as for your point on the difficulty of converting aliens. Well, I doubt it was easy to convert the Roman Empire either.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

I think you are overthinking this HD. Firstly, I don’t see how you can say that there would be rational beings that don’t have an immortal soul. The “image and likeness of God” that humans have is the rational part of the soul. That is what separates us from the other creatures God created. If there are beings that can reason, then they must have immortal souls as they are in the image and likeness of God as well.

It’s not really any more complicated than that.
When the Apostles started their mission were they aware that it would spread to South America, or even that people existed in South America? Probably not. It’s exactly the same thing. We might not be aware of other intelligent life, but if it exists, it stands to reason that it would be in God’s plan that all reasonable creatures (made in the image and likeness of God) should be converted.

And as for your point on the difficulty of converting aliens. Well, I doubt it was easy to convert the Roman Empire either.

You have some strange concepts there.
Where does your assertion that rational being equals immortal soul come from. What level of rationality equals a soul that is eternal? Do lesser rational beings including humans have soul length depending on rationality?

 

[tafan]

You have some strange concepts there.
Where does your assertion that rational being equals immortal soul come from. What level of rationality equals a soul that is eternal? Do lesser rational beings including humans have soul length depending on rationality?

HD, I agree with you about the fact that aliens out their without immortal souls don’t exist. But I have to disagree here. There is nothing strange at all about AdamPeter’s assertion. Where the intellect (our “mind” if you will) is split between the brain and the soul is a valid question. Certainly part of it resides in our soul.

I will not say this categorically, but would speculate that our free-will resides in our soul, not our brain. For a moment, lets look at it from a purely scientific standpoint: to have a free will, our brain would have to be non-deterministic. Now, there is yet, no understanding of how that could possibly happen. Note: I do not rule this out our physical brain could be non-deterministic, its just there is no evidence for that at this time.

Yet, we know from both Church teaching and, more importantly, our entire life experience that we have free will (note: I do not buy in to the crazy scientific theories that our free-will is an illusion created by our mind). So, if our brain is indeed deterministic, that only leaves our soul to provide our free will.

 

[EasterJoy]

This might interest you, OP:

telegraph.co.uk/news/science/space/6536400/The-Vatican-joins-the-search-for-alien-life.html

I didn’t take the time to track down articles primary to the conference itself, sorry.

 

[AdamP88]

You have some strange concepts there.
Where does your assertion that rational being equals immortal soul come from. What level of rationality equals a soul that is eternal? Do lesser rational beings including humans have soul length depending on rationality?

You have some strange concepts there. Where does your idea that rational soul does not equal immortal soul come from? What other (physical) creatures do we know of that have a rational soul apart from humans?

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

You have some strange concepts there. Where does your idea that rational soul does not equal immortal soul come from? What other (physical) creatures do we know of that have a rational soul apart from humans?

Answering my question with a question. I fold, you beat me.

 

[edwest2]

Okay, this is a direct claim of alien contact and a resulting coverup. Who is Mr. Manchetti and have we reason to believe him? Has he offered evidence beyond his word?

This says that the U.S. military is (or was at one time) concerned that there might be something to UFO reports but is downplaying their significance in front of the public. The guys in charge of the security of our airspace had better be concerned about reports of flying vehicles. This says nothing about aliens or even if their concerns turned out to be well-founded.

Definitely claims hidden technology, but not alien life. I find it extremely unlikely that we could have workable star travel and keep it hidden all this time, but I suppose the guy could be right. Like Manchetti, this is another one where the speaker’s job or former job suggests that they might know more than we do, but conveniently we have only their word to go on.

Says “We know some stuff about UFO sightings that has not been released to the public.” Does not say what that might be, nor that UFOs are alien craft.

Says that this guy believes that at least some UFO reports describe something real, not imagined. Does not say what he believes they actually are, nor why he thinks so.

Disagrees with Air Force policy on some aspect of the UFO matter. Does not say that UFO sightings correspond to alien visitations.

Expresses belief in the trustworthiness of some UFO witnesses. Not the same as a claim that he has personal knowledge or evidence in the matter.

Pretty straightforward. We’ve seen weird stuff and we are investigating. No actual conclusion drawn. Uncontroversially true, but doesn’t say anything particularly useful.

Again, claims that there is something behind the sightings. Might claim that they are of intelligent origin (depending on what “intelligent displacement in the Argentine airspace” means). Specifically disclaims any knowledge of what they are or where they come from.

I’m not saying there are no aliens, or even no alien visitors. But all but one of the quoted individuals says nothing about that, and most of them boil down to what everyone already knows: people see objects in the sky that they can’t identify, and at least some of them seem to be real things, so we’re looking into it but have no idea what they are.

There are no aliens. After years of research, there are confirmed reports of qualified observers on the ground seeing them in conjunction with radar operators. Strict rules were released regarding reporting sightings by military personnel which were later expanded to include commercial pilots. That way, the public only got bad to ridiculous explanations. Except for a few cases, UFOs have not caused damage to individuals or property. In the early years, engineers at Wright Field began constructing wind tunnel models. Since National Security was at stake, this matter had to be dealt with shortly after it appeared in North America. They know what they are. And they are still tracking what they call “uncoordinated targets.”

Ed

 

[AdamP88]

Answering my question with a question. I fold, you beat me.

Rational soul and immortal soul are synonymous. Angels and demons and humans all have a rational, immortal soul. Any creature that possesses a rational soul would have to have an immortal soul as the rationality is the main way in which we share the “image and likeness of God”.

What theology brings you to your conclusions?

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

Rational soul and immortal soul are synonymous. Angels and demons and humans all have a rational, immortal soul. Any creature that possesses a rational soul would have to have an immortal soul as the rationality is the main way in which we share the “image and likeness of God”.

What theology brings you to your conclusions?

A rational being does not mean an eternal soul. Unless the Church changed its teaching on primates.

m.yale.universitypressscholarship.com/mobile/view/10.12987/yale/9780300099836.001.0001/upso-9780300099836

This is getting silly. And I refer to my previous post about evangelizing aliens as theologically ridiculous within the Catholic belief system.

I would encourage you again to possibly learn what Mormonism and Scientology teach about this concept. And

Again, what do you think of the concept of Xenu.

The problem with science fiction is usually the science and always the fiction…

 

[EasterJoy]

Rational soul and immortal soul are synonymous. Angels and demons and humans all have a rational, immortal soul. Any creature that possesses a rational soul would have to have an immortal soul as the rationality is the main way in which we share the “image and likeness of God”.

What theology brings you to your conclusions?

From the FAQ page, The Vatican Observatory
*Would the discovery of extraterrestrial intelligence – aliens – affect your faith?

The first and most important fact we have to confront in the whole question of “extraterrestrial intelligence” is this: we don’t know. Of all the planets we’ve found orbiting other stars, it’s not clear if any of them are suitable places for life as we know it. On none of them, nor indeed anywhere closer to us in our own Sun’s system of planets, have we ever found evidence that completely, uncontrovertibly, proves life originated in some place other that just here on Earth. As far as we know for sure, we could be alone.
Fr. Ernan McMullin, a philosophy professor at Notre Dame with a background in physics, has discussed the possible impact on Christian theology of discovering extraterrestrials, and he concludes only that it would certainly inspire theologians to develop new ways of thinking about topics like original sin, the immortality of the soul, and the meaning of Christ’s redemptive act. But, as he points out, there is already a voluminous literature, and hardly a consensus, on these points among theologians even today, without ETs!
Giuseppe Tanzella-Nitti, an astronomer and Opus Dei priest who teaches theology at the Pontifical University of the Holy Cross in Rome, comes to the same conclusion. He has written a lengthy entry on Extraterrestrial Life in the Dizionario Interdisciplinare di Scienza e Fede (The Interdisciplinary Dictionary of Science and Faith, of which he was an editor). But at the end, he concludes by saying (in my translation of his Italian), “the last word on the question of extraterrestrial life will not come from theology, but science. The existence of intelligent life on planets other than the Earth neither rules in, nor rules out, any theological principle. Theologians, like the rest of the human race, will just have to wait and see.”
*
vaticanobservatory.va/content/specolavaticana/en/science–religion–society/faq-science-religion.html

and

*The Rev. José Gabriel Funes, an astronomer who directs the observatory, said he’s open to the possibility of extraterrestrial life and has been for quite some time. Funes finds no contradiction between Catholic theology and the belief in aliens. He has said in the past that humans shouldn’t put limits on God’s creative freedom.

However, Funes draws the line at the idea of an alien Jesus.

“The discovery of intelligent life does not mean there’s another Jesus,” Funes told AFP. “The incarnation of the son of God is a unique event in the history of humanity, of the universe.”*
from huffingtonpost.com/entry/vatican-observatory-alien-jesus_us_55bf8ae3e4b0d4f33a03586a

It is possible, for instance, that God created another incarnated race of beings, but like the angels they did not fall or like those angels who did fall, their fall was like that of Lucifer. We cannot know, nor can we limit God by imagining that God cannot have done more things than we can imagine without ever having contradicted a single thing revealed to us by God as the truth. We know that God cannot deceive nor be deceived. We know we aren’t God. The rest is commentary, eh?