All about Seventh Day Adventists and Catholics

[BTTG]

The SDA’s that I know are very devoted to what they call “Vespers.” Which could be what they are doing on Wednesdays - it is in the evening? Most of the SDA’s that I know who went to a SDA school had mandatory attendance of “vespers” every evening. For me, it seemed in direct contradiction of their criticism of “extra-biblical” elements of Catholicism. Also, I was surprised that no SDA’s seemed to connect the fact that “vespers” is a medieval Catholic monastic tradition that they have adopted. I would have thought that upholding any such Catholic practice would have been contrary to their most basic beliefs since the monastic hours of prayer are not in the bible.

My SDA friends quote Ellen White and Kellogg (in terms of food and lifestyle) far more than the bible. Perhaps you can shed some light on the contributions of this individuals in context with the religion as a whole? Thanks.

**Response - Thank you for your questions. As I am aware, Vespers is only held at sundown on Friday night. I would be interested on more information on the topic of vespers as a “medieval monastic tradition”.

As for the food and life style, that is a huge topic…any specific questions?

written with love
**

 

[BTTG]

Would you agree though that his followers ended up being a big part of the new adventist religion?
Interesting, can you state which five formed the SDA?
Also, if you can, I’d like to know from what denominations were the founders of the SDA…

Thanks

**Response-

Joseph Bates was a follower of Miller and became one of the founders of the SDA.
Hiram Edson was a Methodist who became a SDA
Ellen White / James White- Christian
JC Andrews - was follower of Miller, became a Sabbatarian before 1888.

written with love
**

 

[BTTG]

What always comes to mind is this: The bible talks about a church. Meaning: there was a church way back then. Which church is that??

Hmm… the CC has been around since then, maybe that’s the one?

Wait, humans say it has been corrupted.

YET Jesus said and hell will not prevail agaisnt it. as well as I will be with you until the end.

I wish we could all do the simple math.

**Response -

Church = A Christian congregation, not just a Catholic congregation. Jesus will be with His people until the end. Many will be saved from all different denominations.

If the Catholic Church is “the church” , then at the end of time Satan will go after the “remnant of the seed” , the remnant is a piece of the “church” and of the seed ( Jesus Christ", those that keep the 10 commandments of God ( the true meaning , original meaning of all 10 commandments) and have the testimony of Jesus. (Rev 12:17) And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

written with love
**

 

[BTTG]

Perhaps my friend; your more RIGHT than you realize?

From the opening words of Gensesi to the final period in Revelations; thier is NOT A SINGLE word of God or His messengers about desiring more than one JUST One Church; One Faith [set of beliefs] and One God [Triune] based on One New Covenant in Christ Own Blood. ONLY ONE

**Phil.2: 2 ** “complete my joy by being of the same mind, having the same love, being in full accord and of one mind.”

**Eph. 4: 1-7 **“I therefore, a prisoner for the Lord, beg you to lead a life worthy of the calling to which you have been called, with all lowliness and meekness, with patience, forbearing one another in love, eager to maintain the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. There is one body [WHICH MEANS ONE CHURCH] and one Spirit, just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call, one Lord, one faith, [Meaning only One set of beliefs] one baptism, one God and Father of us all, who is above all and through all and in all. But grace was given to each of us according to the measure of Christ’s gift."

Eph. 2: 18-22 “ for through him we both have access in one Spirit to the Father. So then you are no longer strangers and sojourners, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God,[SINGULAR!] built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, in whom the whole structure is joined together and grows into a holy temple in the Lord;

**John.10: 16 **“And I have other sheep, that are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will heed my voice. So there shall be one flock, one shepherd”

**John 17:20-23 **"I do not pray for these only, but also for those who believe in me through their word, that they may all be one; even as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that thou hast sent me And I have given them the glory you gave me, so that they may be one, as we are one, I in them and you in me, that they may be brought to perfection as one, that the world may know that you sent me, and that you loved them even as you loved me. “

Isn’t that interestering

While the bible speaks of temples [plural faiths], and synagogue of the jewish Faith [also just One set of beliefs and practices]; the term “church” plural for mutiple location addresses; NOT seperate faiths, leadership or beliefs; is notably :The Way; Christian and in the year 110; CATHOLIC. ALL Referencing today’s Catholic Church. This is historical proveable fact. So all references to “church” or “churches” refer to today’s CC.

The Church has NEVER BEEN CORRUPTED! Those in Her have; but Not Christ Church. An IMPOSSIBILITY. Jn. 14:16-17 and John 17:15-19 and Jn. 20: 19-21 confirm this.

God’s Love and Blessings,
Pat

Response - Am I saved if I do not belong to the Catholic Church ?

 

[pablope]

**Response -

Church = A Christian congregation, not just a Catholic congregation. Jesus will be with His people until the end. **

 

[pablope]

Response - Am I saved if I do not belong to the Catholic Church ?

Which Church was in existence when these were written?

 

[barboza21]

Perhaps my friend; your more RIGHT than you realize?

From the opening words of Gensesi to the final period in Revelations; thier is NOT A SINGLE word of God or His messengers about desiring more than one JUST One Church; One Faith [set of beliefs] and One God [Triune] based on One New Covenant in Christ Own Blood. ONLY ONE

**Phil.2: 2 ** “complete my joy by being of the same mind, having the same love, being in full accord and of one mind.”

**Eph. 4: 1-7 **“I therefore, a prisoner for the Lord, beg you to lead a life worthy of the calling to which you have been called, with all lowliness and meekness, with patience, forbearing one another in love, eager to maintain the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. There is one body [WHICH MEANS ONE CHURCH] and one Spirit, just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call, one Lord, one faith, [Meaning only One set of beliefs] one baptism, one God and Father of us all, who is above all and through all and in all. But grace was given to each of us according to the measure of Christ’s gift."

Eph. 2: 18-22 “ for through him we both have access in one Spirit to the Father. So then you are no longer strangers and sojourners, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God,[SINGULAR!] built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, in whom the whole structure is joined together and grows into a holy temple in the Lord;

**John.10: 16 **“And I have other sheep, that are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will heed my voice. So there shall be one flock, one shepherd”

**John 17:20-23 **"I do not pray for these only, but also for those who believe in me through their word, that they may all be one; even as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that thou hast sent me And I have given them the glory you gave me, so that they may be one, as we are one, I in them and you in me, that they may be brought to perfection as one, that the world may know that you sent me, and that you loved them even as you loved me. “

Isn’t that interestering

While the bible speaks of temples [plural faiths], and synagogue of the jewish Faith [also just One set of beliefs and practices]; the term “church” plural for mutiple location addresses; NOT seperate faiths, leadership or beliefs; is notably :The Way; Christian and in the year 110; CATHOLIC. ALL Referencing today’s Catholic Church. This is historical proveable fact. So all references to “church” or “churches” refer to today’s CC.

The Church has NEVER BEEN CORRUPTED! Those in Her have; but Not Christ Church. An IMPOSSIBILITY. Jn. 14:16-17 and John 17:15-19 and Jn. 20: 19-21 confirm this.

God’s Love and Blessings,
Pat

So true. ONE Church. One faith. One body. That will not be corrupted. And which Jesus/God will be with until the end. An apostolic Church from the original apostles.

My favorite of the above verses is Eph 4:3-6

3Make every effort to keep the unity of the Spirit through the bond of peace. 4There is one body and one Spirit—just as you were called to one hope when you were called— 5one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.

How can there be unity when there are thousands of churches- and more and more every week.?
Some might think that Catholics just want Protestants to ‘submit’ to the Church. Its not about who is right or wrong. It’s about following Christ.
If I found out that I wasn’t in the Church of Christ and that indeed Christ had founded A TRUE CHURCH. I would run there. Just to be in His Church.

What my dad always says: “If I knew all the Churches were the same I wouldn’t mind… Let people be where they want to be. BUT just the smpe fact of knowing that the bible itself talks about there being ONE true church founded by JESUS CHRIST HIMSELF… well I don’t know about you–but I WANT TO BE IN THAT CHURCH!”

 

[barboza21]

**Response-

Joseph Bates was a follower of Miller and became one of the founders of the SDA.
Hiram Edson was a Methodist who became a SDA
Ellen White / James White- Christian
JC Andrews - was follower of Miller, became a Sabbatarian before 1888.

written with love
**

Thanks for clearing that up for me. I had been wondering for some time.

 

[barboza21]

**Response -

Church = A Christian congregation, not just a Catholic congregation. Jesus will be with His people until the end. Many will be saved from all different denominations.

If the Catholic Church is “the church” , then at the end of time Satan will go after the “remnant of the seed” , the remnant is a piece of the “church” and of the seed ( Jesus Christ", those that keep the 10 commandments of God ( the true meaning , original meaning of all 10 commandments) and have the testimony of Jesus. (Rev 12:17) And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

written with love
**

Church (Noun)

1. A building used for public Christian worship.
2. A particular Christian organization, typically one with its own clergy, buildings, and distinctive doctrines.
3. The hierarchy of clergy of such an organization, esp. the Roman Catholic Church or the Church of England.
4. Institutionalized religion as a political or social force.
5. The body of all Christians.

Source: Google Dictionary

In which way was the Church talked about in the bible?
Certainly not just as a building.

acts 9:31Then the church throughout Judea, Galilee and Samaria enjoyed a time of peace. It was strengthened; and encouraged by the Holy Spirit, it grew in numbers, living in the fear of the Lord.
gal 1:22I was personally unknown to the churches of Judea that are in Christ. churches=buildings; of christ= churches in judea of the faith given by christ

 

[barboza21]

**The church of God: **
acts 20:28 - Keep watch over yourselves and all the flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers. Be shepherds of the church of God, which he bought with his own blood.
and the Churches of God:
1 cor 11:16 - If anyone wants to be contentious about this, we have no other practice—nor do the churches of God. churches-varius church buildngs that are all together THE church of God.
1 Thess. 2:14 - For you, brothers, became imitators of God’s churches in Judea, which are *in *Christ Jesus: You suffered from your own countrymen the same things those churches suffered from the Jews
Churches of the Saints:
1 cor 14:33 - For God is not a God of disorder but of peace. As in all the congregations of the saints. Saints: the chosen ones of God.

Paul persecuted the Church of Jesus.
Gal 1:23 - They only heard the report: “The man who formerly persecuted us is now preaching **the faith **he once tried to destroy.”
acts 22:4 - I **persecuted the followers **of **this Way (the Christian movement)**to their death, arresting both men and women and throwing them into prison, 5as also the high priest and all the Council can testify. I even obtained letters from them to their brothers in Damascus, and went there to bring these people as prisoners to Jerusalem to be punished.
6“About noon as I came near Damascus, suddenly a bright light from heaven flashed around me. 7I fell to the ground and heard a voice say to me, ‘Saul! Saul! Why do you persecute me?’

The followers of Christ was the Church. and Jesus said why do you persecute me?
The church of Christ is the body of Christ. that is why there is one. Not more than one. and that is why we should be one-if not the body of christ is separated. That is what we are now.

 

[barboza21]

Response - Am I saved if I do not belong to the Catholic Church ?

Not all catholics are guaranteed to be saved. Not all protestants are guaranteed to be saved. We are not saying that only Catholics are to be saved: Absolutely not.
Only God knows who will be saved.

But what we do know is that God only wants one church. That is what the bible says.

Do you believe this??

 

[PJM]

=BTTG;7906857]**Response - Thank you for your questions. As I am aware, Vespers is only held at sundown on Friday night. I would be interested on more information on the topic of vespers as a “medieval monastic tradition”.

As for the food and life style, that is a huge topic…any specific questions?

written with love
**

As a FYI…

VESPERS in the CC is Alive and Well even today!

God Bless,
Pat

 

[loneviking]

The SDA’s that I know are very devoted to what they call “Vespers.” Which could be what they are doing on Wednesdays - it is in the evening? Most of the SDA’s that I know who went to a SDA school had mandatory attendance of “vespers” every evening. For me, it seemed in direct contradiction of their criticism of “extra-biblical” elements of Catholicism. Also, I was surprised that no SDA’s seemed to connect the fact that “vespers” is a medieval Catholic monastic tradition that they have adopted. I would have thought that upholding any such Catholic practice would have been contrary to their most basic beliefs since the monastic hours of prayer are not in the bible.

My SDA friends quote Ellen White and Kellogg (in terms of food and lifestyle) far more than the bible. Perhaps you can shed some light on the contributions of this individuals in context with the religion as a whole? Thanks.

Vespers usually refers to Friday evenings, bringing in the Sabbath. The SDA boarding academys and some colleges also hold an evening worship sometimes called ‘Vespers’. If you point out that Vespers is only one of several times of prayer and when are the others goiing to be observed?–you’ll be told that those are Catholic things that SDA’s don’t do.

Wed. night is ‘Prayer Meeting’. And yes, SDA’s (at least the mainstream/conservative ones) quote EGW a lot, as she is offically a ‘continuing and authoritative source’.

 

[PJM]

=BTTG;7907092]Response - Am I saved if I do not belong to the Catholic Church ?

IT’s VERY DIFFICULT but possible IF you have no opportunity to learn and know the singular truth. Being on this FORUM gives you such an opportunity so KNOW my friend God will Judge us based on WHAT WE CAN KNOW as if if know it and deny it.

If you’dike more infor send me a PM

God Bless you,
Pat

 

[dsmantz]

Interesting. I was recently involved in an apologetic discussion with a woman over Facebook email who messaged me out of the blue. We engaged in debate over SDA and the Church, and I eventually had to call off the discussion. She employed many of the same argument styles as our SDA friend here, and I simply couldn’t follow in any well formed, logical, reply.

All I got were short and vague allegations, quotes and videos from remnantofgod.org, and answering questions with answers. I think I walked away more confused on the matter than when I went in (surprisingly enough).

I hope that this might turn into a logical rhetoric that one can follow to gain deeper understanding, instead of gaining a headache trying to follow the illogical pattern of debate.

 

[BTTG]

IT’s VERY DIFFICULT but possible IF you have no opportunity to learn and know the singular truth. Being on this FORUM gives you such an opportunity so KNOW my friend God will Judge us based on WHAT WE CAN KNOW as if if know it and deny it.

If you’dike more infor send me a PM

God Bless you,
Pat

**How are we saved ? Will I not enter heaven if I don’t worship on Sunday, if I don’t accept purgatory, if I don’t believe that there is a hell today, if I don’t believe Peter was the first pope, if I don’t believe that I have to confess my sins to a priest.

Thank you

written with love **

 

[BTTG]

Not all catholics are guaranteed to be saved. Not all protestants are guaranteed to be saved. We are not saying that only Catholics are to be saved: Absolutely not.
Only God knows who will be saved.

But what we do know is that God only wants one church. That is what the bible says.

Do you believe this??

**I agree with your thoughts on those that are saved. I question your fellow catholic PJM, on the response… “it could be very difficult”.

written with love**

 

[BTTG]

Where did you get this definition of a Church? Source please.

 

[Pythons]

Millerism, as it was concerned with Seventh-day Adventism has serious ramifications for Ellen White…
…The rubrics of the group itself demonstrate that Ellen was a “false prophet”.
…A short summary follows.

William Miller believed he had figured out the season of Christ’s 2nd Coming, Miller said it was to take place in Spring of 43/44…
…Spring of 1843 AND 1844 came and went with Jesus being a ‘no show’ ( 1st & 2nd disappointment’s ).
…NOTE: Miller’s ONLY message was to repent BECAUSE Jesus was coming in Spring of 1843 or 1844.
…That was "IT", there was NO other message.

Subsequent to the Spring of 1844 two of Miller’s followers came forward and claimed Miller was “almost right”…
…And said the calculations were off because of a different calendation system used at the time of Christ.
…The two men were “George Storrs” and Sam Snow ( also known as Incarnation of Elijah ).

Storrs ( proto Jehovah’s Witness ) and Incarnation of Elijah convinced Miller to ‘re-set’ the date of the 2nd Coming…
…To the date of 22 October 1844 ( which was the date according to ancient Karite Jewish calendation.
…That date obviously came and went and it was subsequently known as the “Great Disappointment”.

Important to NOTE that aside from the new calendation the message had NOT changed…
…This message of the Millerites was the ONLY message people could judge or test.
…Miller himself repudiated his own teaching and stated it was ERROR.
…And the majority of the people left and re-joined their former denominations.
…LEAVING only the ones which didn’t have a former denomination to return to.

The people that stuck around became known as “Adventists”…
…Jehovah’s Witnesses, Christdelphians, WWCOG & Seventh Day Adventists.
…This CORE group only agreed with the total rejection of the Trinity.
…And soon fragmented into the above factions.

In the SDA case, something like 15 years after 1844 a teaching was formulated that affirmed…
…That Jesus put a Levitical Robe on with “bells” ( so God wouldn’t kill him ) and started.
…To perform a work of investigation in a literal temple in heaven.
…This work was stated to have initiated on 22 October 1844 - the same date as the false message of Millerism.

 

[PJM]

=BTTG;7928810]**How are we saved ? Will I not enter heaven if I don’t worship on Sunday, if I don’t accept purgatory, if I don’t believe that there is a hell today, if I don’t believe Peter was the first pope, if I don’t believe that I have to confess my sins to a priest.

Thank you

written with love **

Let’s began by putting your comments into a more proper perspective. As I am on vacation I don’t have access to my ofiice at home supports so If you want further evidence send me a PM and When I get home I’ll respond to you.

The bible from the first paragraph of Geneses to the final period in Revelations TEACHES EXCLUSIVELY that God, Jesus and The Blessed Trinity have always and everwhere taught ONLY ONE FAITH, One God and NOW on One New and Everlasting Covennant. [Eph. 4:1-7] is just ONE of a GREAT MANY supports of this. In fact the NT alone has over 100 references to but One Faith/ One Church. So friend to hold a position that varies from what the One Faith set up by Christ teaches, is actually to deny what Christ Himself teaches.

Salvation is as intended by God to be a PROCESS. It is biblically proveavle that ALL of the following are required: 1. Christian Baptism [John 3:5] Faith [or for infants the faith of their parents and God-parents], Keeping the Commandments and avoinding Mortal sins, Good and chairitable works [James chapter 2 PLUS many other places]. Dying while still united to God with no unconfessed/ unrepented Mortal sins 1 Jn. 1:8-10, 1 Jn. 5: 16-17, John 20: 19-23 and Mt. 16:19]. Denying these God issued MANDATES in no way lessons their reality or obligations imposed by them and OF COURSE REAL and TRUE Faith is also needed.

The idea that Faith alone is sufficient is NOT BIBLICAL! And Not true. It denies who God is and What God MUST be, and WHY God made us in the precise manner that he has done. At best it is wishhful thinking that will not get one into heaven.

Space prohibits a full discussion of your concerns.

God Bless you,
Pat