All about Seventh Day Adventists and Catholics

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**How are we saved ? Will I not enter heaven if I don’t worship on Sunday, if I don’t accept purgatory, if I don’t believe that there is a hell today, if I don’t believe Peter was the first pope, if I don’t believe that I have to confess my sins to a priest.

Thank you

written with love **
Scripture teaches that one’s final salvation depends on the state of the soul at death. As Jesus himself tells us, “He who endures to the end will be saved” (Matt. 24:13; cf. 25:31–46). One who dies in the state of friendship with God (the state of grace) will go to heaven. The one who dies in a state of enmity and rebellion against God (the state of mortal sin) will go to hell.

Certainly, Christ did die on the cross once for all and has entered into the holy place in heaven to appear before God on our behalf. Christ has abundantly provided for our salvation, but that does not mean that there is no process by which this is applied to us as individuals. Obviously, there is, or we would have been saved and justified from all eternity, with no need to repent or have faith or anything else. We would have been born “saved,” with no need to be born again. Since we were not, since it is necessary for those who hear the gospel to repent and embrace it, there is a time at which we come to be reconciled to God. And if so, then we, like Adam and Eve, can become unreconciled with God and, like the prodigal son, need to come back and be reconciled again with God, after having left his family.

One finds that Adam and Eve, who received God’s grace in a manner just as unmerited as anyone today, most definitely did demerit it—and lost grace not only for themselves but for us as well (cf. also Rom. 11:17-24). While the idea that what is received without merit cannot be lost by demerit may have a kind of poetic charm for some, it does not stand up when compared with the way things really work—either in the everyday world or in the Bible.

Regarding the issue of whether Christians have an “absolute” assurance of salvation, regardless of their actions, consider this warning Paul gave: “See then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off” (Rom. 11:22; see also Heb. 10:26–29, 2 Pet. 2:20–21).

“Are you saved?” asks the Fundamentalist. The Catholic should reply: “As the Bible says, I am already saved (Rom. 8:24, Eph. 2:5–8), but I’m also being saved (1 Cor. 1:18, 2 Cor. 2:15, Phil. 2:12), and I have the hope that I will be saved (Rom. 5:9–10, 1 Cor. 3:12–15). Like the apostle Paul I am working out my salvation in fear and trembling (Phil. 2:12), with hopeful confidence in the promises of Christ (Rom. 5:2, 2 Tim. 2:11–13).”

Source-Catholic.com
 
**I agree with your thoughts on those that are saved. I question your fellow catholic PJM, on the response… “it could be very difficult”.

written with love**
but you dont agree that God wants one Church?
 
pablope;7909069:
**Response - What is the significance of "Mary " being clothed with the sun, with the moon and the garland of twelve stars- Rev 12:1?

How, or when did “Mary” flee into the wilderness for 1,260 days - Rev 12:6. When you take "Mary " literally, how does Mary have literally 2 wings and flys into the wilderness … from the presence of the serpent?- Rev 12:14 How did the earth help Mary in Rev 12:16?
Thank you

written with love**
Rev 12:1-6 - The woman of revelation 12 is both an individual person and a collective symbol. She is Mary the mother of th Messiah and the spiritual mother of his disciples (Jn 19:26-27). But she also represents the faithful of Israel, crying out for the messiah (Rev 12:2), as well as the Church, attacked by the devil for witnessing to Jesus (12:17) (CCC 501, 507, 1138).

The depiction of the woman is rich in biblical symbolism. (1) Antagonism between the woman and the dragon, the “ancient serpent” (12:9), recalls Gen 3:15, the first prophecy in scripture to foretell the demise of the devil through the offspring (Messiah) of a woman (a new Eve). (2) Images of the sun, moon, and stars call to mind Gen 37:9-10, where they symbolise the family of Israel, namely, Jacob, his wife, and his twelve sons. (3) the pangs and anguish of childbirth recall Isaiah’s description of Daughter Zion, a maternal figure that represents the holy remnant of Israel groaning for redemption (Is 26:17; Mic 4:9-10). (4) Because the woman is a queen who wears a crown and a mother who bears a royal male child, she is also the Queen Mother of the Davidic kingdom reestablished by Jesus, the Davidic male child (1 Kings 2:19-20; Jer 13:18) (CCC 489).

The woman is clearly the Church, endowed with the Word of the Father, whose brightness outshines the sun. Like the moon she is adorned with heavenly glory, and her crown of twelve stars points to the twelve apostles who founded the Church. The vision speaks of the Mother of our Savior, depicting her in heaven, not on earth, as pure in body and soul, as equal to an angel, as one of heaven’s citizens, as one who brought about the Incarnation of God. She has nothing in common with this world and its evils but is exalted and worthy of heaven, despite her descent from our mortal nature (Oecumenius, Commentary on the Apocalypse 6, 19).

Rev 12:1 - the moon:
Can symbolize both maternal dignity (Gen 37:9-10) and feminine beauty (song 6:10). twelve stars: represent both the twelve tribes of Israel (21:12) and the twelve apostles of Jesus (21:14).

Rev 12:2 - the pangs of birth:
probably related to the Passion of Jesus, which peirced the heart of his Mother (Lk 2:35) and seized his disciples with the distress of a woman in labor (Jn 16:20-22)

Rev 12:6 - fled into the wilderness:
Many interpret this as the safe escape of Jewish Christians from Jerusalem when they fled to a place called Pella. Refer back to Rev 11:2.

Rev 12:13-17 -
Slammed down to earth, the devil storms off after the woman, but God protects her from his evil intentions. The imagery recalls how Yahweh was said to have rescued Israel from Egypt on eagle’s wings (12:14; Ex 19:4). Other allusions include the salvation of Noah’s family from the flood (12:15; Gen 6-8) and the destruction of Korah and his rebel supporters when the earth **opened its mouth **to swallow them alive (12:16; Num 16:1-34).

Rev 12:17 - the woman… her offspring: An allusion to Gen 3:15, which stands as a backdrop for the entire chapter. Here the woman’s offspring is not only the Messiah (individual, 12:5), but also his disciples (collective, Rom 16:20). See note on Rev 12:1-6.

I hope this helps.
 
BTTG:

I am afraid I haven’t received a reply to most of my comments to you on certain aspects of yours and my religion. I hope you will get to them soon.

Post 39, 53, 54 more than others. I put time and effort into sharing my thougths and beliefs.

Most recent posts 67 and 68.

I would love to hear what you have to say. Please let me know if it is time you are waiting on…
 
=BTTG;7928824]**I agree with your thoughts on those that are saved. I question your fellow catholic PJM, on the response… “it could be very difficult”.
written with love**
My friend know that my post was also with love and prayers.

WHY did I say it WOULD be difficult? Know my friend I was NOT expressing a personal ONLY view.

Among the most essentail elements of one’s personal salvation are: 1. Knowing what Christ actaully teaches [MOST protestants do not]. 2. Because they do not know [why is a seperate topic], they are inabled by their own lack of discernment. 3. What Christ teaches applies to ALL, even if ignored, denied, unbleieved, or misunderstood. There can and is ONLY One truth for every specific issue. 3. From the first word of Genesis to the final period in Revelations, God has ONLY, consistantly, and uniformly taught “I AM” [singular] your God and you shall have no other gods before [or with me]. This of couse includes ONLY One set of Faith beliefs and practrices.[READ Eph. 4:1-7] SO WHY WOULD GOD CHANGE THIS OVER 1,000 years [after His Death and Ressurection] when He founded His One Faith; One Church, One set of beliefs under a structure not disimiler from the OT, only now complete and Perfected? 4. Christ OWN DOGMA’S of the Eucharist; Baptism, Confession of sins, Good-works and simple and humble Obedience to ALL that He taught and ALL that He as God empowered and appointed Peter, the Apostles and successors [READ Mt. 28:19-20 if you doubt this then read Mt. 16:19 and John 20:19-22].

GRACE and forgiveness of sins are CRITICAL to one’s salvation. Opportunity for Sacramental Grace [the single gt=reatest and must abundant source of grace [but not the only], are ONLY valid and licit in the Catholic Church. Know forgiveness of sins too is EXCLUSIVE to the CC.

Is salvation Possible outside of the CC? MAYBE! 1. If one has no opportunity to learn and know the truth [weveryone on this FORUM HAS SUCH AS OPPORTUNITY] 2. Know that God will, because God MUST judge everyone of us based on what we “can know” as if we DO KNOW, even if we deny it, ignore it or refuse the HS’s grace in understanding it. 3. Outside of the CC thee ONLY POSSIBILITY for forgiveness of sin is a Perfect Contrition and a conversion of life style. The issues is: How caqn one be assurred that their contrition is PERFECT [nothing less is acceptable to a PERFECT GOD. “YOU MUST BE [applies to all of us, but Catholics have way’s of knowing] …AS YOUR HEAVENLY Father is Perfect.”

So in this brief explaination is the RIGHT understanding of what I shared. Just as it IS US who chooses heaven otr hell; God leaves it up to our FREEWILL, Mind and Intellect to make God’s actual Teachings.

Love and prayers, God Bless,
Pat
 
**How are we saved ? Will I not enter heaven if I don’t worship on Sunday, if I don’t accept purgatory, if I don’t believe that there is a hell today, if I don’t believe Peter was the first pope, if I don’t believe that I have to confess my sins to a priest.

Thank you

written with love **
We answer with the words of Our Lord: strive to enter, BTTG.
 
Scripture teaches that one’s final salvation depends on the state of the soul at death. As Jesus himself tells us, “He who endures to the end will be saved” (Matt. 24:13; cf. 25:31–46). One who dies in the state of friendship with God (the state of grace) will go to heaven. The one who dies in a state of enmity and rebellion against God (the state of mortal sin) will go to hell.

Certainly, Christ did die on the cross once for all and has entered into the holy place in heaven to appear before God on our behalf. Christ has abundantly provided for our salvation, but that does not mean that there is no process by which this is applied to us as individuals. Obviously, there is, or we would have been saved and justified from all eternity, with no need to repent or have faith or anything else. We would have been born “saved,” with no need to be born again. Since we were not, since it is necessary for those who hear the gospel to repent and embrace it, there is a time at which we come to be reconciled to God. And if so, then we, like Adam and Eve, can become unreconciled with God and, like the prodigal son, need to come back and be reconciled again with God, after having left his family.

One finds that Adam and Eve, who received God’s grace in a manner just as unmerited as anyone today, most definitely did demerit it—and lost grace not only for themselves but for us as well (cf. also Rom. 11:17-24). While the idea that what is received without merit cannot be lost by demerit may have a kind of poetic charm for some, it does not stand up when compared with the way things really work—either in the everyday world or in the Bible.

Regarding the issue of whether Christians have an “absolute” assurance of salvation, regardless of their actions, consider this warning Paul gave: “See then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off” (Rom. 11:22; see also Heb. 10:26–29, 2 Pet. 2:20–21).

“Are you saved?” asks the Fundamentalist. The Catholic should reply: “As the Bible says, I am already saved (Rom. 8:24, Eph. 2:5–8), but I’m also being saved (1 Cor. 1:18, 2 Cor. 2:15, Phil. 2:12), and I have the hope that I will be saved (Rom. 5:9–10, 1 Cor. 3:12–15). Like the apostle Paul I am working out my salvation in fear and trembling (Phil. 2:12), with hopeful confidence in the promises of Christ (Rom. 5:2, 2 Tim. 2:11–13).”

Source-Catholic.com
**Response - I agree with most of your above comments. I just read in many posts by Catholics that if I do not attend the Catholic Church I might not be saved. I do not believe my salvation is based on whether I believe in hell, purgatory, that I have to confess my sins to a priest, etc. By the grace of God I am saved through faith, not of my works, but that of the Lord working in me. There is nothing I can do to be saved.

written with love**
 
BTTG:

I am afraid I haven’t received a reply to most of my comments to you on certain aspects of yours and my religion. I hope you will get to them soon.

Post 39, 53, 54 more than others. I put time and effort into sharing my thougths and beliefs.

Most recent posts 67 and 68.

I would love to hear what you have to say. Please let me know if it is time you are waiting on…
**Response - I will provide answers to the posts you mention. I devote little time to this site as I believe many on this site are saved and we will meet in heaven. The majority of my time is studying the word and meeting those who do not know Jesus. Oh ya full time work and a family of five.

sorry for the delay

written wirh love**
 
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barboza21:
**This is in response to post 39 - Everything that man says has to be measured to the bible. If the word of man is not in the word of God throw it out. (Isa 8:20) To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

written with love **
 
Church (Noun)
  1. A building used for public Christian worship.
  2. A particular Christian organization, typically one with its own clergy, buildings, and distinctive doctrines.
  3. The hierarchy of clergy of such an organization, esp. the Roman Catholic Church or the Church of England.
  4. Institutionalized religion as a political or social force.
  5. The body of all Christians.
Source: Google Dictionary

In which way was the Church talked about in the bible?
Certainly not just as a building.

acts 9:31Then the church throughout Judea, Galilee and Samaria enjoyed a time of peace. It was strengthened; and encouraged by the Holy Spirit, it grew in numbers, living in the fear of the Lord.
gal 1:22I was personally unknown to the churches of Judea that are in Christ. churches=buildings; of christ= churches in judea of the faith given by christ
Response - I agree
 
BTTG;7928911:
Revelations 12

**Response - I did a study a while ago on Rev 12.

Chapter about the war of light and darkness – God and Satan

About the women

(Rev 12:1)
Now a great sign appeared in heaven: a woman ( true churchWoman = Church Eph.5 22-24 / 2 Cor.11:2( writing to church at Corth.) / Jer.2:23, 6:2 / Is. 54:5-6 / Hos.2:19-20
  • see ) clothed with the sun ( light of Christ- opposite of the women in 17:4 who was arrayed in gaudy garments carrying a cup of abominations), with the moon (old testament- types and shadows, which were eclipsed by the revelations that came through Christ) under her feet( subjection – control) , and on her head a garland (crown-a victors crown - ) of twelve stars ( 12 disciples – leadership of the church in the NT).
The woman represents the true church of Jesus. “I Have likened the daughter of Zion to a comely and delicate woman." Jeremiah 6:2. “And say unto Zion, Thou art my people.” Isaiah 51:16.
The sun represents Jesus, His gospel, and His righteousness. “The Lord God is a sun.” Psalms 84:11. ((Mal 4:2) But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.

Without Jesus there is no salvation (Acts 4:12). More than anything else, Jesus wants His church to overflow with His presence and glory.

“The moon under her feet” represents the sacrificial system of the Old Testament. As the moon reflects the light of the sun, so the sacrificial system was helpful spiritually only as it reflected light from the Messiah to come (Hebrews 10:1).

Sun , moon and stars give light to the earth – women is clothed with natural beauty, as opposed to women in Rev 17

. The “crown of twelve stars” represents the work of the 12 disciples, which crowned the early years of the New Testament church.
The “third of the stars that were cast down” represent a third of Lucifer’s angles when he faught with Michael. Revelation 12:9; Luke 10:18; Isaiah 14:12)
The dragon was working through pagan Rome at the time of Jesus’ birth. The ruler who tried to kill Jesus was Harod.

(Rev 12:2)
Then being with child, she cried out in labor and in pain to give birth. ( This was talking about Jesus- the church/God’s people cried out because king Harod was trying to kill baby Jesus)

(Rev 12:3)
And another sign appeared in heaven: behold, a great, fiery red dragon ( Satan)having seven heads(and ten horns (horns is military power) , and seven diadems(greek meaning is crown- crown means political power) on his heads. ( The Romans, through the works of Satan, killed Jesus, at the same time tried to abolish Christianity. After Jesus died now Satan through false churches is trying to conquer God/Christianity)

(Rev 12:4)
His tail drew a third of the stars of heaven and threw them to the earth ( Dan. 8:10) . And the dragon( Satan ) stood before the woman ( church-religion-God’s word )who was ready to give birth, to devour ( destroy infant Jesus) her Child as soon as it was born (Harod – king was killing the first born).

(Rev 12:5)
She bore a male Child (Jesus) who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron (Rev. 2:18-29 is talking about the corrupt church, not a church during the 1000 years. Therefore, vs 27, is Jesus ruling with an iron rod – Rev 2:27, 12:5, 19:15. also see Psa. Passages next) Christ has the authority to rule

((Psa 2:8)
Ask of Me, and I will give You The nations for Your inheritance, And the ends of the earth for Your possession.

(Psa 2:9)
You shall break them with a rod of iron; You shall dash them to pieces like a potter’s vessel.’ "

And her Child was caught ( representation of Jesus’ ascension to heaven)(Heb 10:12) But this Man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God,

up to God and His throne.

Verses 2 thru 5 is the life, death and resurrection of Jesus.

Jesus had the power to rule - (Mat 28:18) And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

continued next post

**
 
(Rev 12:6)
Then the woman( church-God’s word- two witnesses, fled between 538-1798 ) fled into the wilderness( place of seclusion, away from the public) , where she has a place prepared by God, that they (various agencies that preserve and strengthen the church) should feed ( God will protect and nourish the church during the dark ages) her there one thousand two hundred and sixty days( years). Even though the church is persecuted God still protects and nourishes. Look at us today in this very sinful world, yet God is still protecting us.

(Rev 12:7)
And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought with the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought, (2Pe 2:4) For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

(Rev 12:8)
but they (meaning the angles and Satan) did not prevail, nor was a place found for them ( angles and Satan) in heaven any longer.

(Rev 12:9)
So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
(Joh 12:31) Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.

What cast Satan out of heaven…the blood of the Lamb

Verses 7-9 took place soon after the resurrection of Jesus. For Jesus said during His sermon speech… (Mat 5:8) Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God. (Psa 24:3) Who shall ascend into the hill of the LORD? or who shall stand in his holy place? (Psa 24:4) He that hath clean hands, and a pure heart; who hath not lifted up his soul unto vanity, nor sworn deceitfully.

Satan is not pure in heart.

(Luk 10:17) And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name. (Luk 10:18) And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven. (Luk 10:19) Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you.

Therefore Satan’s fall at the time of the cross.

(Rev 12:10)
Then I heard a loud voice (inhabitants in heaven) saying in heaven, "Now (time of the cross) salvation (victory at the cross) , and strength, and the kingdom of our God ((Luk 11:20) But if I with the finger of God cast out devils, no doubt the kingdom of God is come upon you.) – Jesus during His ministry was re-ceclaiming His kingdom, of casting out devils in people.

, and the power of His Christ have come ((Mat 28:18) And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.) Because of the blood of the Lamb, the accuser has been cast down.
, for the accuser of our brethren, who accused them before our God day and night, has been cast down.

Now Jesus Christ is our salvation.

Jesus states that when he is crucified (lifted up from the earth) that Satan ( prince of this world) will be cast out of heaven.

(Joh 12:31) Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out. The same John of the book of John also wrote the book of Rev.

(Joh 12:32) And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

“ Now salvation” , what is salvation? (Joh 17:3) And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

John in Rev. says “now” we have salvation. Therefore, since the crucifixion of Jesus , those who know Jesus Christ have salvation.

(Joh 16:11) Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.

God made His final judgement of Satan, cast out of heaven.

(Gen 3:15) And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

This happened at the cross.

(Rev 12:11)
And they ( God’s people) overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony (personal witnessing for Jesus), and they ( God’s people) did not love their lives to the death. (men would die rather then disobey God)

The weapon that overcame Satan for him to be cast out of heaven was the blood of the Lamb at the cross.
(Rev 1:5) And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

(Rev 12:12)
Therefore rejoice, O heavens, and you who dwell in them! Woe to the inhabitants of the earth ( the 2 nd beast from the earth ???) and ( those in heaven are rejoicing but the church on earth still await further persecution) the sea( beast from the sea ??) ! For the devil has come down to you, having great wrath ( persecutes the church -(1Pe 5:8) Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:

, because he knows that he has a short time."

Short time –

(Mat 15:34) And Jesus saith unto them, How many loaves have ye? And they said, Seven, and a few little fishes.
  • A ‘few” fishes were 4, 000 in number
(Mat 7:14) Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
  • A few is how many in this sentence?
(Mar 6:5) And he could there do no mighty work, save that he laid his hands upon a few sick folk, and healed them.
  • How many people did Jesus heal? More then a few
(Rev 22:20) He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.

Since Jesus is coming quickly, Satan may only have but a short time.

-continued next post

written with love
 
(Rev 12:13)
Now when the dragon saw that he had been cast to the earth, he persecuted the woman who gave birth to the male Child. ("And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child. The church came under the anger and wrath of the dragon. Thousands of martyrs died at the stake or were torn limb from limb by savage animals in the great amphitheaters of Rome but still the truth survived. And then the counterfeit system arose with its attempt to suppress the Bible and stifle the apostolic faith.) (gave birth to the male Child – representing bringing Christianity, the church, when he was born) - Plan A for Satan - After Jesus ascended to heaven, Satan worked through first trying to kill Christians. Jews and Romans were persecuted if they believed in Jesus. However, this plan did not work because Christianity grew by leaps and bounds. Plan B – Satan works through the church, from the inside of the church outwards.
Ch 12:13- Since he was no longer able to attack Jesus personally, he aimed his fury and persecution at God’s church and His people.
(Rev 12:14)
But the woman was given two wings ((Exo 19:4) Ye have seen what I did unto the Egyptians, and how I bare you on eagles’ wings, and brought you unto myself. - (Deu 32:11) As an eagle stirreth up her nest, fluttereth over her young, spreadeth abroad her wings, taketh them, beareth them on her wings: (Deu 32:12) So the LORD alone did lead him, and there was no strange god with him. )

of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness to her place (a place appointed by God), where she is nourished for a time and times and half a time, from the presence of the serpent.
( the church, Protestants went into hiding to flee persecutions for 1260 years – these are the dark ages-538 AD to 1798 - - after the dark ages the true church comes alive).

Ch – 12:14 “ The woman fled into the wilderness” – God’s church was protected in the wilderness for 1260 years… between 538-1798, ( notice not days, as this entire chapter uses symbolism – we cannot say the 1,260 days is literal), from Satan. The two wings represent the protection of God (Exo. 19:4).

(Rev 12:15)
So the serpent spewed water (destruction- Ps 74:13, Exe 29:3(Rev 17:15) And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues. - ) out of his mouth like a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away by the flood. ( the serpent does everything he could to try and destroy the true church)

(Rev 12:16)
But the earth ( could be North America- brings relief to the persecuted church in Europe , or the Protestant Reformation )helped the woman, and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed up the flood which the dragon had spewed out of his mouth.

(Rev 12:17)
And the dragon was enraged with the woman( since Satan did not destroy the church during the wilderness years, he was mad), and he went to make war ( Rev. 13:11-17 , 16:12-16with the rest of her offspring( the remaining ones of the true church), who keep the commandments of God ( therefore, the 10 commandments are a major theme in God vs. Satan) and have the testimony ( spirit of prophesy)of Jesus Christ.

(Rev 12:17) – using this due to “remnant”of her seed”
AndG2532 theG3588 dragonG1404 was wrothG3710 withG1909 theG3588 woman,G1135 andG2532 wentG565 to makeG4160 warG4171 withG3326 theG3588 remnantG3062 of herG848 seed,G4690 which keepG5083 theG3588 commandmentsG1785 of God,G2316 andG2532 haveG2192 theG3588 testimonyG3141 of JesusG2424 Christ.G5547

( after the 1260 years Satan is angered at the true church . Satan goes to make war with the remnant, the remainder of the true church, that church that kept the commandments of God and the testimony of Jesus at the end of time - Revelation 19:10 we read, “For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.” )

Satan since God’s creation of man has tried to be God, after Jesus’ death he has now given power to the authority of the church… (Act 20:28) Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood. (Act 20:29) For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. (Act 20:30) Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.

written with love
 
As far as I can tell, I find BTTG’s verse by verse disertation on Rev.12 very comprehensive and spot on in his exegesis. As far as being copied and pasted, so what. Do you have a problem with his interpretation of the individual verses? To say “It raises so many issues at once that it makes the conversation bog down.” seems to me to be a copout. And why would you think that BTTG would have answers as to the Catholic understanding of Revelation? I’m not trying to be a smart alec or contentious, I just don’t see the point in your post.
 
=BTTG;7939755]**Response - I agree with most of your above comments. I just read in many posts by Catholics that if I do not attend the Catholic Church I might not be saved. I do not believe my salvation is based on whether I believe in hell, purgatory, that I have to confess my sins to a priest, etc. By the grace of God I am saved through faith, not of my works, but that of the Lord working in me. There is nothing I can do to be saved.
written with love**
My dear friend in Christ; allow me please to respond in LOVE:)

What one chooses to beleive certainly, like all actions have consequences. THIS SAID what we beleive is of little or NO importance IF, IF, it is not what Christ taught and continues to teach through His One Faith, One Church; the CC.

GOD"S GRACE WHILE A FREE GIFT; is only available to those who freely choose to 1. KNOW Him ,2. Love Him, 3. Serve Him, and 4. OBEY Him. Take any one of these away and such a person REGARDLESS of personal beliefs WILLNOT be saved.

Your positions simply are NOT biblically supportable. The MOST CRITICAL RULE of understanding the Bible is that NO one part of the bible can contradict another part of the Bible.

Were this even a possibility [its NOT!], then [apply logic here please] the Bible would HAVE NO VALUE AT ALL except maybe to learn how to read words.*** IT COULD NOT be of any benefit for teaching or learning one’s faith.IMPOSSIBLE! ***

I have shared very often on the FORUM that one need not in an absolute sense have to be Confirmed in the CC to be saved IF, and ONLY IF one is never exposed to Christ Truth, or NEVER has an TRUE opportunity to gain such understanding.

For God to be God He has to do every good thing: So are fairness and Justice Good things? Of course they are. Consequently God WILL because God MUST judge all of us based on what He God Makes POSSIBLE for us to know; and He God WILL Jude us all, based on what we could have known but refused to accept. THAT MY FRIEND PUTS EVERYONE ON CAF AT GREAT MORTAL RISK OF SALVATION, IF, IF they freely choose not to avail themselves of the opportunity presented to them to learn the truth.

And logicly there can [and is] Only One Truth for every single issue.

Have you ever considered WHY and How you were directed to CAF? It is the working of the Holy Spirit making available to YOU and ALL on CAF; an opportunity to learn God’s Truths supportable by, how and through the ways God has Ordained for this precise purpose.

My friend rather than saying I CHOOSE NOT TOO BELIEVE; ask How can I believe or WHY DO YOU [catholics] believe what you do? On what evidence does the CC defend its faith? PM me if you want further information:thumbsup:

God has placed you and us here at the same time for a precise reason. CHECK IT OUT!

God Bless you, and PLEASE pray for guidence from God,

Love and prayers,
Pat
 
On the side here, written in love…someone said where are proofs that the SDA’s existed at the beginning of Christ’s Church?

There is such SDA literature here and about saying that the Catholic Church is Rome…on the 7 hills…the Pope the Anti-Christ bill boards on I-5…

But I don’t think the SDA’s were around then at the beginning, because they would not accuse the Catholic Church of being the beast from Rome of the 7 hills…because the Vatican is not on the 7 hills but across the river from there— on flat land…

And Athens and Jerusalem when Revelations was written, are also on 7 hills…so there is no authentic witness of SDA thought going back to ancients just by geography alone. So which 7 hills?..oh well…

So, since the Vatican is on flat land…I hope this geographical fact will take heat off the Catholic Church as being ID’d as the harlot/Rome…

In love…now back to your discussion…
 
Response - I agree with most of your above comments. I just read in many posts by Catholics that if I do not attend the Catholic Church I might not be saved. I do not believe my salvation is based on whether I believe in hell, purgatory, that I have to confess my sins to a priest, etc. By the grace of God I am saved through faith, not of my works, but that of the Lord working in me. There is nothing I can do to be saved.
written with love
“Are you saved?” asks the Fundamentalist. The Catholic should reply: “As the Bible says, I am already saved (Rom. 8:24, Eph. 2:5–8), but I’m also being saved (1 Cor. 1:18, 2 Cor. 2:15, Phil. 2:12), and I have the hope that I will be saved (Rom. 5:9–10, 1 Cor. 3:12–15). Like the apostle Paul I am working out my salvation in fear and trembling (Phil. 2:12), with hopeful confidence in the promises of Christ (Rom. 5:2, 2 Tim. 2:11–13).”
-catholic.com

Did you look at the scripture provided? And if you did, would you care to elaborate which ones you agree with and which ones you don’t? and why?

I understand you have a family and work to attend to. I don’t mind waiting, if you just let me know you will get to them I am happy to wait.

For example: Phil. 2:12- Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, 13for God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure. What are your thoughts here?

How about Matt 5:20; 6:14-15; 7:21; 12:36-37; 19:16-26; Mk 11:25; Lk 10:28-37; Jn 3:36; 8:51; Rom 8:16-17; 10:10; 13:8-10; 1 Cor 7:19; 2 Cor 2:9; Gal 6:8; Phil 2:12-15; Col 3:23-24; Heb 5:9; 1 Peter 1:17, 22; Jude 20-21; Rev 2:5, 23; 22:12

Know that these verses talk about some kind of work being done is necessary.

I’m sure you have come across most of these. Some may even be underlined in your bible. All I ask is you open your mind and try to understand what I am saying. If you do and you find something you don’t agree with, let me know what and why. We can discuss the matter further if you like.

God bless…

*I tell you, on the day of judgement men will render account for every careless word they utter; for by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned.*matt 12:36-37
If you do a bad work (like saying bad things:gossip, lies, profanity, etc…) you will “be condemned”… if you do good work, you will be justified.
Does this shed some light?
 
Everything that man says has to be measured to the bible. If the word of man is not in the word of God throw it out. (Isa 8:20) To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

written with love
Can you tell me where you believe the above underlined from? in the bible?
Is 8:20 says if they speak NOT according to this word, it is because there is no light in them. … .If they speak against the word, there is no light in them. Yes? You don’t believe this verse is saying that if it is not written in the bible, it is not true?

response- in post 39 I asked if you agreed that faith alone without works was dead. I gave you a few bible verses. Do you agree?

you had said: “Jesus is the head of the church, in that all what happens within the church is to be revealed in the bible.” I asked what exactly you meant by that. Since I still don’t know Im going to assume you are saying that everything about the faith is in the bible?? I can give you reasons why that’s not true. Would you like me to? Also, please let me know where you get that statement from the bible… thank you.

you quoted 2 Thess. 2:15, in regards to tradition. Do we agree that traditions as well as oral teachings are valid, not just the bible?
you quoted 2 Ti 3:15-16 and Luk 24:27 regarding scripture being inspired and Jesus interpreting the scriptures to the apostles.
I agree! Scripture is inspired. BUT it is not sufficient. Scripture itself tells us that. RIght?? I know! Jesus used to OT, and interpreting to the apostles, he showed/explained to the apostles where the OT talked about him having to die for us in order to enter in His glory.
So, then do we agree that the bible is good, inspired scripture, but that it is not sufficient?

Have a blessed day
 
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