All about Seventh Day Adventists and Catholics

[barboza21]

Regarding the bible speaking of a church. NOt just a building but an actual doctrine/faith.

Response - I agree

God wants one church?

**Response - Yes, God wants one church However, people will be saved from other denominations that are not Catholic, or SDA…

written with love**

I agree! There will not only be Catholics in Heaven.

Let me ask you a question. Since you know that there was a church in the NT times, and that God wants that Church to be the only one…

Truthfully, Wouldn’t you want to be a part of that one church of God?

Sincerely,

Barboza21

 

[barboza21]

barboza21;7935051:

BTTG;7928911:

Revelations 12

**Response - I did a study a while ago on Rev 12.

Chapter about the war of light and darkness – God and Satan

About the women

(Rev 12:1)
Now a great sign appeared in heaven: a woman ( true churchWoman = Church Eph.5 22-24 / 2 Cor.11:2( writing to church at Corth.) / Jer.2:23, 6:2 / Is. 54:5-6 / Hos.2:19-20

• see ) clothed with the sun ( light of Christ- opposite of the women in 17:4 who was arrayed in gaudy garments carrying a cup of abominations), with the moon (old testament- types and shadows, which were eclipsed by the revelations that came through Christ) under her feet( subjection – control) , and on her head a garland (crown-a victors crown - ) of twelve stars ( 12 disciples – leadership of the church in the NT).

The woman represents the true church of Jesus. “I Have likened the daughter of Zion to a comely and delicate woman." Jeremiah 6:2. “And say unto Zion, Thou art my people.” Isaiah 51:16.
The sun represents Jesus, His gospel, and His righteousness. “The Lord God is a sun.” Psalms 84:11. ((Mal 4:2) But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.

Without Jesus there is no salvation (Acts 4:12). More than anything else, Jesus wants His church to overflow with His presence and glory.

“The moon under her feet” represents the sacrificial system of the Old Testament. As the moon reflects the light of the sun, so the sacrificial system was helpful spiritually only as it reflected light from the Messiah to come (Hebrews 10:1).

Sun , moon and stars give light to the earth – women is clothed with natural beauty, as opposed to women in Rev 17

. The “crown of twelve stars” represents the work of the 12 disciples, which crowned the early years of the New Testament church.
The “third of the stars that were cast down” represent a third of Lucifer’s angles when he faught with Michael. Revelation 12:9; Luke 10:18; Isaiah 14:12)
The dragon was working through pagan Rome at the time of Jesus’ birth. The ruler who tried to kill Jesus was Harod.

(Rev 12:2)
Then being with child, she cried out in labor and in pain to give birth. ( This was talking about Jesus- the church/God’s people cried out because king Harod was trying to kill baby Jesus)

I think its more of the passion of Jesus. Because when Herod was trying to kill baby Jesus, the church had not yet been established. People didn’t know baby Jesus was the Messiah, yet.**

(Rev 12:3)
And another sign appeared in heaven: behold, a great, fiery red dragon ( Satan)having seven heads(and ten horns (horns is military power) , and seven diadems(greek meaning is crown- crown means political power) on his heads. ( The Romans, through the works of Satan, killed Jesus, at the same time tried to abolish Christianity. After Jesus died now Satan through false churches is trying to conquer God/Christianity)

I agree with how satan is trying to conquer God/Christianity. Though he will NOT triumph. ")

(Rev 12:4)
His tail drew a third of the stars of heaven and threw them to the earth ( Dan. 8:10) . And the dragon( Satan ) stood before the woman ( church-religion-God’s word )who was ready to give birth, to devour ( destroy infant Jesus) her Child as soon as it was born (Harod – king was killing the first born).

(Rev 12:5)
She bore a male Child (Jesus) who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron (Rev. 2:18-29 is talking about the corrupt church, not a church during the 1000 years. Therefore, vs 27, is Jesus ruling with an iron rod – Rev 2:27, 12:5, 19:15. also see Psa. Passages next) Christ has the authority to rule

The rod of iron alludes to Ps 2:9, a coronation psalm that celebrated the enthronement and royal adoption(divine birth) of the Davidic kings of srael. It is ultimately fulfilled in Christ, who rose to an immortal life of kingship (acts 13:33) when he ascended into glory (heb 1:5-8)
((Psa 2:8)
Ask of Me, and I will give You The nations for Your inheritance, And the ends of the earth for Your possession.

(Psa 2:9)
You shall break them with a rod of iron; You shall dash them to pieces like a potter’s vessel.’ "

And her Child was caught ( representation of Jesus’ ascension to heaven)(Heb 10:12) But this Man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God,

up to God and His throne.

Verses 2 thru 5 is the life, death and resurrection of Jesus.
I agree.
Jesus had the power to rule - (Mat 28:18) And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

continued next post

 

[barboza21]

(Rev 12:6)
Then the woman( church-God’s word- two witnesses, fled between 538-1798 ) fled into the wilderness( place of seclusion, away from the public) , where she has a place prepared by God, that they (various agencies that preserve and strengthen the church) should feed ( God will protect and nourish the church during the dark ages) her there one thousand two hundred and sixty days( years). Even though the church is persecuted God still protects and nourishes. Look at us today in this very sinful world, yet God is still protecting us.

fled into the wilderness: safe escape of jewish christians from jerusalem when they fled to a place called pella.

(Rev 12:7)
And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought with the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought, (2Pe 2:4) For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;
(Rev 12:8)
but they (meaning the angles and Satan) did not prevail, nor was a place found for them ( angles and Satan) in heaven any longer.
(Rev 12:9)
So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
(Joh 12:31) Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.

What cast Satan out of heaven…the blood of the Lamb I Agree. When Jesus mounted the cross.

Verses 7-9 took place soon after the resurrection of Jesus. For Jesus said during His sermon speech… (Mat 5:8) Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God. (Psa 24:3) Who shall ascend into the hill of the LORD? or who shall stand in his holy place? (Psa 24:4) He that hath clean hands, and a pure heart; who hath not lifted up his soul unto vanity, nor sworn deceitfully.

Satan is not pure in heart.

(Luk 10:17) And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name. (Luk 10:18) And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven. (Luk 10:19) Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you.

Therefore Satan’s fall at the time of the cross.

(Rev 12:10)
Then I heard a loud voice (inhabitants in heaven) saying in heaven, "Now (time of the cross) salvation (victory at the cross) , and strength, and the kingdom of our God ((Luk 11:20) But if I with the finger of God cast out devils, no doubt the kingdom of God is come upon you.) – Jesus during His ministry was re-claiming His kingdom, of casting out devils in people.

, and the power of His Christ have come ((Mat 28:18) And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.) Because of the blood of the Lamb, the accuser has been cast down.
, for the accuser of our brethren, who accused them before our God day and night, has been cast down.

Now Jesus Christ is our salvation.

Jesus states that when he is crucified (lifted up from the earth) that Satan ( prince of this world) will be cast out of heaven.

(Joh 12:31) Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out. The same John of the book of John also wrote the book of Rev.
(Joh 12:32) And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
“ Now salvation” , what is salvation? (Joh 17:3) And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

John in Rev. says “now” we have salvation. Therefore, since the crucifixion of Jesus , those who know Jesus Christ have salvation.

Jesus opened up Heaven for us. He opened up the posibility of eternal life. That is how he saved us. YEt we are still being saved and have hopes of being saved in the end.

(Joh 16:11) Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.

God made His final judgement of Satan, cast out of heaven.

(Gen 3:15) And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

This happened at the cross.

Agreed.

-continued next post

written with love

I had to delete your take on Rev 12:122 and 12 due to the limit of characters on the post. I agree with most of your post.

 

[barboza21]

(Rev 12:13)
Now when the dragon saw that he had been cast to the earth, he persecuted the woman who gave birth to the male Child. ("And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child. The church came under the anger and wrath of the dragon. Thousands of martyrs died at the stake or were torn limb from limb by savage animals in the great amphitheaters of Rome but still the truth survived. And then the counterfeit system arose with its attempt to suppress the Bible and stifle the apostolic faith.) (gave birth to the male Child – representing bringing Christianity, the church, when he was born) - Plan A for Satan - After Jesus ascended to heaven, Satan worked through first trying to kill Christians. Jews and Romans were persecuted if they believed in Jesus. However, this plan did not work because Christianity grew by leaps and bounds. Plan B – Satan works through the church, from the inside of the church outwards.
Ch 12:13- Since he was no longer able to attack Jesus personally, he aimed his fury and persecution at God’s church and His people.
(Rev 12:14)
But the woman was given two wings … ((Exo 19:4) Ye have seen what I did unto the Egyptians, and how I bare you on eagles’ wings, and brought you unto myself. - (Deu 32:11) As an eagle stirreth up her nest, fluttereth over her young, spreadeth abroad her wings, taketh them, beareth them on her wings: (Deu 32:12) So the LORD alone did lead him, and there was no strange god with him. ) … of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness to her place (a place appointed by God), where she is nourished for a time and times and half a time, from the presence of the serpent.
( the church, Protestants went into hiding to flee persecutions for 1260 years – these are the dark ages-538 AD to 1798 - - after the dark ages the true church comes alive).

for a time, and times, and half a time=3 1/2. This is half of 7, which is the perfect number. meaning the 3 1/2 = unperfect/bad. bad/harsh times.

Funny that you mention it… after 1798 the true church came alive. which one?

Ch – 12:14 “ The woman fled into the wilderness” – God’s church was protected in the wilderness for 1260 years… between 538-1798, ( notice not days, as this entire chapter uses symbolism – we cannot say the 1,260 days is literal), from Satan. The two wings represent the protection of God (Exo. 19:4).

(Rev 12:15)
So the serpent spewed water (destruction- Ps 74:13, Exe 29:3(Rev 17:15) And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues. - ) out of his mouth like a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away by the flood. ( the serpent does everything he could to try and destroy the true church)

(Rev 12:16)
But the earth ( could be North America- brings relief to the persecuted church in Europe , or the Protestant Reformation )helped the woman, and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed up the flood which the dragon had spewed out of his mouth.

(Rev 12:17)
And the dragon was enraged with the woman( since Satan did not destroy the church during the wilderness years, he was mad), and he went to make war ( Rev. 13:11-17 , 16:12-16with the rest of her offspring( the remaining ones of the true church), who keep the commandments of God ( therefore, the 10 commandments are a major theme in God vs. Satan) and have the testimony ( spirit of prophesy)of Jesus Christ.

(Rev 12:17) – using this due to “remnant”of her seed”
AndG2532 theG3588 dragonG1404 was wrothG3710 withG1909 theG3588 woman,G1135 andG2532 wentG565 to makeG4160 warG4171 withG3326 theG3588 remnantG3062 of herG848 seed,G4690 which keepG5083 theG3588 commandmentsG1785 of God,G2316 andG2532 haveG2192 theG3588 testimonyG3141 of JesusG2424 Christ.G5547

( after the 1260 years Satan is angered at the true church . Satan goes to make war with the remnant, the remainder of the true church, that church that kept the commandments of God and the testimony of Jesus at the end of time - Revelation 19:10 we read, “For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.” )

Satan since God’s creation of man has tried to be God, after Jesus’ death he has now given power to the authority of the church… (Act 20:28) Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood. (Act 20:29) For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. (Act 20:30) Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.

written with love

It is great that you did a study on Rev. 12.

You previously wrote: *Response - What is the significance of "Mary " being clothed with the sun, with the moon and the garland of twelve stars- Rev 12:1?

How, or when did “Mary” flee into the wilderness for 1,260 days - Rev 12:6. When you take "Mary " literally, how does Mary have literally 2 wings and flys into the wilderness … from the presence of the serpent?- Rev 12:14 How did the earth help Mary in Rev 12:16?
Thank you

written with love *

On post 68 I wrote you a response. and from my response I believe is when you wrote me these 3 posts on your study of Rev. 12.

However, did you or did you not agree on my take of Rev 12, and the explanations I offered rearding your questions?
My post is #68. Please let me know if you agree with my explanations.

Best,
Cynthia

 

[agent_grey]

The SDA cult is the single most dangerous cult on the planet. I can proove it. The earth isn’t flat. Check Mate.

SDA doctrine teaches of a God that created a flat earth. If you belive the earth is flat Than SDA is for you.

 

[Pythons]

I don’t know about the SDA’s teaching that the earth is flat - in fact I’m pretty sure they don’t…
…Given MANY SDA’s have advanced degrees in the medical field I think aside from them believing the earth is ONLY 6000 years old.
…They have a good grasp on the Sciences.

The primary issue the SDA’s have are their most foul theology whereas the Trinity is concerned…
…They affirm Jesus isn’t God like “God” ( the Father is God ).
…& Ellen White ( their so called prophet ) boasted that Christ was “capable of mutation”.
…By promulgating a teaching that Christ could have sinned and lost His Salvation.

Had Ellen White’s hypothetical situation been realized she stated that God would have annihilated Christ…
…And Christ would have permanently CEASED to exist.
…Other odd teachings of SDAism include God the Father has a rectum and ALL the members and parts of a perfect man.

The SDA’s teach that on 22 October 1844 Christ started to “cleans” the Sanctuary in heaven…
…Which had become peutrefied due to Christ in His atonement for man on the Cross approx 1900 years previous.

With teachings like these we don’t need to accuse SDA’s of promulgating the earth is flat…
…Simply because I very much doubt they have a teaching like this.

For some examples see posts 5,6,7 at
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=537528

 

[loneviking]

The SDA cult is the single most dangerous cult on the planet. I can proove it. The earth isn’t flat. Check Mate.

SDA doctrine teaches of a God that created a flat earth. If you belive the earth is flat Than SDA is for you.

I doubt you can prove this. I was born into the SDA church, 3rd generation, educated in SDA schools and I never heard it.

 

[barboza21]

I don’t know about the SDA’s teaching that the earth is flat - in fact I’m pretty sure they don’t…
…Given MANY SDA’s have advanced degrees in the medical field I think aside from them believing the earth is ONLY 6000 years old.
…They have a good grasp on the Sciences.

The primary issue the SDA’s have are their most foul theology whereas the Trinity is concerned…
…They affirm Jesus isn’t God like “God” ( the Father is God ).
…& Ellen White ( their so called prophet ) boasted that Christ was “capable of mutation”.
…By promulgating a teaching that Christ could have sinned and lost His Salvation.

Had Ellen White’s hypothetical situation been realized she stated that God would have annihilated Christ…
…And Christ would have permanently CEASED to exist.
…Other odd teachings of SDAism include God the Father has a rectum and ALL the members and parts of a perfect man.

The SDA’s teach that on 22 October 1844 Christ started to “cleans” the Sanctuary in heaven…
…Which had become peutrefied due to Christ in His atonement for man on the Cross approx 1900 years previous.

With teachings like these we don’t need to accuse SDA’s of promulgating the earth is flat…
…Simply because I very much doubt they have a teaching like this.

For some examples see posts 5,6,7 at
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=537528

Where do you know this from? It seems you have researched the faith?

 

[Pythons]

Where do you know this from? It seems you have researched the faith?

I know this from the countless hours I’ve spent in researching their theological rubrics…
…Directly from their own archives.
…Which contain in depth teachings as to what they mean by “personality of God”, Sanctuary, etc.

As an anti-Catholic group they should be taken VERY seriously as they double their efforts in poor Catholic areas…
…When they say they believe in the Trinity - they pour an alien definition into it.
…The same goes for the Holy Spirit, etc.

I’ve collected over 30 direct Sacred Scripture quotes which explicitly state…
…That there was absolutely ZERO possibility of Christ ever loosing His Salvation.
…This affirmation they boast to the high heavens - they literally gloat over it.

Here are a few of MANY examples of their idea of the Trinity.

"Satan in heaven had hated Christ for His position in the courts of God. He hated Him the more when he himself was dethroned. He hated Him who pledged Himself to redeem a race of sinners. Yet into the world where Satan claimed dominion God permitted His Son to come, a helpless babe, subject to the weakness of humanity. He permitted Him to meet life’s peril in common with every human soul, to fight the battle as every child of humanity must fight it, at the risk of failure and eternal loss.” (Ellen G. White, The Desire of Ages. Page 49 ‘Unto you a Saviour’)

“Never can the cost of our redemption be realized until the redeemed shall stand with the Redeemer before the throne of God. Then as the glories of the eternal home burst upon our enraptured senses we shall remember that Jesus left all this for us, that He not only became an exile from the heavenly courts, but for us took the risk of failure and eternal loss” Same Book, Desire of Ages

"Could Satan in the least particular have tempted Christ to sin, he would have bruised the Saviour’s head. As it was, he could only touch His heel. Had the head of Christ been touched, the hope of the human race would have perished. Divine wrath would have come upon Christ as it came upon Adam. Christ and the church would have been without hope.” (Ellen G. White, Signs of the Times, June 9th 1898, see also Selected Messages Book 1 page 256)

“Remember that Christ risked all; “tempted like as we are,” he staked even his own eternal existence upon the issue of the conflict. Heaven itself was imperiled for our redemption. At the foot of the cross, remembering that for one sinner Jesus would have yielded up his life, we may estimate the value of a soul” Ellen White SDA General Conference Bulletin 1 Dec 1895

I’m sure you get the idea - HAD Christ ‘screwed up Salvation’ their teaching goes Satan would have won and became ruler…
…I wish I could say this was the end of it but this teaching is saturated into their publications.

 

[Richard_Kastner]

II’ve collected over 30 direct Sacred Scripture quotes which explicitly state…
…That there was absolutely ZERO possibility of Christ ever loosing His Salvation.
…This affirmation they boast to the high heavens - they literally gloat over it.

I would be interested in seeing these verses. Could you list them?

 

[BTTG]

I know this from the countless hours I’ve spent in researching their theological rubrics…
…Directly from their own archives.
…Which contain in depth teachings as to what they mean by “personality of God”, Sanctuary, etc.

"Could Satan in the least particular have tempted Christ to sin, he would have bruised the Saviour’s head. As it was, he could only touch His heel. Had the head of Christ been touched, the hope of the human race would have perished. Divine wrath would have come upon Christ as it came upon Adam. Christ and the church would have been without hope.” (Ellen G. White, Signs of the Times, June 9th 1898, see also Selected Messages Book 1 page 256)

I’m sure you get the idea - HAD Christ ‘screwed up Salvation’ their teaching goes Satan would have won and became ruler…
…I wish I could say this was the end of it but this teaching is saturated into their publications.

**Response - Can you biblically prove that these statements by EG White are false?

If I may take a moment to discuss how Jesus took on the form of a human and not on the nature of the unfallen Adam. Jesus came to the earth in human flesh, he was the seed of Abraham. He was not in the form of a spiritual angle, nor did He have the powers…… “For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham” (Hebrews 2:16). How could He partake of Abraham’s seed if He took on Him the nature of unfallen Adam? Jesus did not take on some sinless nature such as angels or holy Adam, but He had the same nature that Abraham’s children possessed. They had sin-full fleshly bodies and minds. So did Jesus.

One can be subject to sin and not be guilty of it. He was tempted in the same way we are, yet He never once even thought about sin. He remained undefiled by sin and was always totally pure and holy. Jesus was made like us.
“Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God” (Hebrews 2:17).

Paul declared that Jesus “was made of the seed of David according to the flesh” (Romans 1:3). It would be wrong to say that these words are to be interpreted to mean that Christ inherited a holy, unfallen nature from Mary. Whatever David’s seed was like after the flesh, our Lord partook of the same. All of those descendants of David, except one, committed personal sins. Jesus, like all others, inherited the nature of David after the flesh, but He did not yield to the inherent weaknesses of that nature. Although tempted in all ways like us, He did not respond to any of those temptations. Jesus used His spiritual power against Satan.
Jesus relied on His Father’s strength, He demonstrated the victory that is possible for all of David’s seed after the flesh to experience.

We also read, "Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same" (Hebrews 2:14). The body of Christ took on the same flesh and blood as man.   HE—ALSO—HIMSELF—LIKEWISE. These four words are used consecutively even though they are repetitive and redundant. WHY? In order to impress us that Jesus really did enter into the SAME nature man possessed.

" Doesn’t this tell us without question the kind of nature Christ possessed? Did Adam have any children born before he sinned? Not one! The fact is that all the children who have ever been born in the world have inherited the same fallen nature of Adam, because they were all born after Adam sinned. In Hebrews it reads that Jesus “himself likewise took part of the same.” The same what? The same flesh and blood as children inherit from their parents. What kind of flesh do children inherit from their parents? Only sinful flesh. Has any other kind of flesh except sinful flesh ever been known among the descendants of Adam? None whatsoever. If Jesus partook of the same flesh and blood as the children, it had to be sinful flesh and blood.

Jesus was fully God and He was fully man. Jesus could draw upon either of these natures while living here in the flesh. But Jesus did not use His divine power to save Himself from the weaknesses and temptations inherited from His human ancestry. He chose to live His life here as a man in the same way we have to live it. To save Himself from sin and the flesh of the body, Jesus depended constantly and solely upon the power of His Father. It was by this, that He overcame the devil, had victory over all temptations, and lived a life of perfect obedience.

Jesus never fell to the ways of the flesh. He set an example of the kind of victory that may come to every child of Adam through depending on the Father.
Satan tempted Jesus in the wilderness to use His divine power to satisfy His hunger. Satan knew that Jesus had the power of deity to work that miracle. His hope was that he could entice Christ to draw upon His divinity for relief. Why would that have been such a triumph for Satan? He could have used that to prove his way that God required an obedience that no man in the flesh could produce. If Jesus had failed to overcome satan in the same nature we have, and by the same means available to us, the devil would have proven that obedience is indeed an impossible requirement. Satan understood very well that Jesus could not use His divine power to save Himself and to save man at the same time.

If Jesus actually inherited the nature of Adam, then why didn't He sin like the rest of Adam's descendants? Because He was filled with the Holy Spirit from birth and possessed a fully surrendered will and sanctified human nature.

some words and thoughts above were help from a friend.

(had to remove some quotes from above due to character limits)

written with love**

 

[Pythons]

Richard Kastner, I’m glad you asked and of course I would be happy to post “some”…
…Catholicism affirms that Christ was not subject to “mutation”.
…Contrasted with what all Adventist systems teach about it.

Adventist Denominations are: Jehovah’s Witnesses, Christadelphians, Seventh-day Adventists & World Wide Church of God 7th day…
…As the Sacred Scriptures confirm - The Catholic Church is right.

Romans 8,28
And we know that to them that love God, all things work together unto good, to such as, according to his purpose, are called to be saints

The key phrase in this Scripture for our issue is “According to His purpose”…
…Where we see in the Old Testament:

Isaiah 14,24
The Lord of hosts hath sworn, saying: Surely as I have thought, so shall it be: and as I have purposed

Isa 46:9
Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me, Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

So, we can establish, from the Scriptures, that what God “has purposed” has absolutely zero possibility of failure…
…The following are affirmations in Scripture of what God “purposed”.

Isaiah 35,4
Say to the fainthearted: Take courage, and fear not: behold your God WILL bring the revenge of recompense: God himself WILL come and WILL save you.Then shall the eyes of the blind be opened, and the ears of the deaf shall be unstopped.Then shall the lame man leap as a hart, and the tongue of the dumb shall be free: for waters are broken out in the desert, and streams in the wilderness.

Once Jesus is identifed AS "The Christ’ that settles the question about failure right then and there…
…God explicitly stated that A) He would come & B) He WOULD SAVE.
…Please read the Gospel account of what Jesus told the disciples of John the Baptist!

Matthew 1,21
And she shall bring forth a son: and thou shalt call his name JESUS. For he **SHALL SAVE **his people from their sins.

For those not up on the “time-hack” Jesus was NOT yet born…
…And the angel of the Lord flat out said the Child within the Blessed Virgin absolutely would SAVE His people from their sins.

Shortly after Jesus is born He is taken to the Jewish Temple in accordance to Jewish law…
…And we see another most interesting statement made.

Luke 2,25
And behold there was a man in Jerusalem named Simeon, and this man was just and devout, waiting for the consolation of Israel; and the Holy Ghost was in him. And he had received an answer from the Holy Ghost, that he should not see death, before he had seen the Christ of the Lord. And he came by the Spirit into the temple. And when his parents brought in the child Jesus, to do for him according to the custom of the law, He also took him into his arms, and blessed God, and said: Now thou dost dismiss thy servant, O Lord, according to thy word in peace; Because my eyes have seen thy salvation, Which thou hast prepared before the face of all peoples

The Holy Ghost had informed Simeon that he would NOT die UNTIL he had witnessed ‘The Christ’…
…Simeon picks up the Baby Jesus, and blessed God because Simeon had just got confirmation.
…The poor little Jewish kid he was holding in his hands WAS THE CHRIST.
…Imagine that!

High level math is not needed to formulate that Jesus ( as an Baby ) WOULD not have been the Christ AS AN INFANT…
…If it was within possibility He could have sinned and lost His Salvation.
…Simeon said he was ready to DIE because God revealed to him that Jesus was indeed the Christ.
…And God promised Simeon he would NOT die UNTIL he witnessed the Christ.
…If Simeon were already an old man he would have had to wait until the Resurrection of Christ prior to his dying!

That defaults that Jesus was, AT THAT TIME, ‘The Christ’…
…Of course the more we read Scripture the more we learn that God The Son was ETERNALLY the Christ.

1st Peter 1,19
But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb unspotted and undefiled, Foreknown indeed before the foundation of the world, but manifested in the last times for you, Who through him are faithful in God, who raised him up from the dead, and hath given him glory, that your faith and hope might be in God

John 3,17
For God sent not his Son into the world, to judge the world, but that the world may be saved by him

 

[Pythons]

God the Father “sent” God the Son for the purpose of SAVING us…
…And as we have already established, by the Scriptures, Jesus was ALWAYS the Christ.
…From before the world was created.

Apocalypse 13,8
And all the dwell upon the earth adored him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb, which was slain from the beginning of the world

Read the following Scriptures adding the Adventist rubric “if I don’t sin and loose my salvation” AFTER each one…
…I’ll do the first couple so everyone can get the idea.

John 6,50
This is the bread which cometh down from heaven; that if any man eat of it, he may not die. I am the living bread which came down from heaven. If any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever; and the bread that I will give, is my flesh, for the life of the world IF I DON"T SIN AND LOOSE MY SALVATION!

John 11,25
Jesus said to her:** I am the resurrection and the life**: he that believeth in me, although he be dead, shall live: And every one that liveth, and believeth in me, shall not die for ever IF I DON’T SIN AND LOOSE MY SALVATION.

Luke 5,20
Whose faith when he saw, he said: Man, thy sins are forgiven thee…
…AS LONG AS I DON"T SIN AND LOOSE MY OWN SALVATION

Matthew 7,22
Many will say to me in that day: Lord, Lord, have not we prophesied in thy name, and cast out devils in thy name, and done many miracles in thy name? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, you that work iniquity AS LONG AS I DON’T SIN AND LOOSE MY OWN SALVATION.

Matthew 26,64
Jesus saith to him: Thou hast said it. Nevertheless I say to you, hereafter you shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of the power of God, and coming in the clouds of heaven PROVIDED I DON’T SIN AND LOOSE MY SALVATION.

This is disturbing enough I’m going to have to stop…
…But please believe me - there are OVER 30 direct Scriptures that explicitly back up the Catholic teaching.
…That there was ETERNALLY never a possibility of Christ failing NOR was there ETERNALLY a possibility of Christ permanently ceasing to exist.

The Catechism states such a teaching is False and we have already witnessed what the Scriptures say as to the Adventist hypothetical…

In the Adventist theological rubric Michael the archangel ( who they claim is another name for Christ )…
…Actually DIDN’T come for the purpose of SAVING humanity.
…They teach that Christ came to "VINDICATE’ God’s Holy Law.
…Of which the Saturday Sabbath is the most important part of the law.

Ellen White Adventist Sabbath Review and Herald August 13, 1895, paragraph 6
“Representing the law of God in its true character arouses the enmity of Satan. Those who love God with all the heart, will love the law of his kingdom. They will not only profess to be guided by its principles, but they will actually live them out, even in a world that is no more favorable to the development of Christian principles than were the inhabitants of the world before the flood, of whom it is written that the thoughts and imaginations of their hearts were evil, and only evil continually. A similar condition of society exists in our world today, and if those who claim to be God’s commandment-keeping people do not put in practice the principles of the law which Christ came to our world to vindicate, pronouncing it holy, just, and good, they misrepresent the character and mission of their professed Master”

**Ellen White **
For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life" (John 3:16). Christ did not come to change the Sabbath of the fourth commandment. He did not come to lessen the law of God in one particular. He came to express in His own person the love of God. He came to vindicate every precept of the holy law.–Ms 145, 1897, p. 4. (“Notes of Work,” Dec. 30, 1897.) {11MR 345.3}

The SDA’s teach that Ellen White also shared in the Vindicating work of Christ.

**Ellen White **
Satan will continue to bring in his erroneous theories and to claim that his sentiments are true. Seducing spirits are at work. I am to meet the danger positively, denying the right of anyone to use my writings to serve the devil’s purpose to allure and deceive the people of God. God has spared my life that I may present the testimonies given me, to vindicate that which God vindicates, and to denounce every sophistry [intended] to deceive if possible the very elect.–Ms 126, 1905, pp. 3, 7. (“A Warning Against Present Dangers,” typed December 29, 1905.) {5MR 144.1}

Ellen taught that Christ came to Vindicate God’s holy law which is why she so often gloated…
…That it was possible that Michael ( Christ ) could have sinned and lost His Salvation.
…Whereby if that HAD happened God would have killed Christ by annihilation.
…Whereas Christ would have ceased to exist.

Hope that helps.
God Bless.

 

[Pythons]

**Response - Can you biblically prove that these statements by EG White are false?
**

Hi BTTG, please see my previous answer ( post ) to “Richard Kastner” in which I included many Scriptures…
…Those posts may have already provided some answers to your questions.
…Feel free to ask any question you may have and if it’s beyond my ability to answer I’m sure staff apologetics will be directed to your question.

God Bless.

 

[Protector]

Then why does Ellen WHite say in various places that “not one in twenty” and “not one in a hundred” Christians will be saved?

Could have something to do with Matthew 7:14, " How narrow is the gate, and strait is the way that leadeth to life: and few there are that find it!" Douay-Rheims Holy Bible.

Protector.

 

[PRmerger]

Could have something to do with Matthew 7:14, " How narrow is the gate, and strait is the way that leadeth to life: and few there are that find it!" Douay-Rheims Holy Bible.

Protector.

But how does she know the ratio? 1 out of 20 or 1 per 100?

 

[Pythons]

But how does she know the ratio? 1 out of 20 or 1 per 100?

SDA’s feign to be the heirs of the protestant reformation and also feign to be “Bible Only”…
…However inspection of their rubrics demonstrate Mormonish or Jehovah’s Witnesses theology.
…Example following:

Ellen White
At that time [after the 1844 disappointment] one error after another pressed in upon us; ministers and doctors brought in new doctrines. We would search the Scriptures with much prayer, and the Holy Spirit would bring the truth to our minds. Sometimes whole nights would be devoted to searching the Scriptures and earnestly asking God for guidance. Companies of devoted men and women assembled for this purpose. The power of God would come upon ME, and I was enabled clearly to define what is truth and what is error. As the points of our faith were thus established, our feet were placed upon a solid foundation. We accepted the truth point by point, under the demonstration of the Holy Spirit. I would be taken off in vision, and explanations would be given ME. I was given illustrations of heavenly things, and of the sanctuary, so that we were placed where light was shining on us in clear, distinct rays.–Gospel Works, p. 302. {3SM 32.1}"

Notice the mechanism employed by Ellen White above - it was “she” who was empowered by God…
…To determine the truth or error of the “new doctrines” brought in by the anti-Trinitarian ministers and doctors.
…Joe Schmo would claim “The Bible” taught such and such.
…And Ellen would fall down, entered her prophetic state - wake up and confirm / validate the schema.

Therefore, to SDA’s if Ellen White said 1 in 20 would make it they would consider this information accurate…
…As Ellen was teaching authority by which SDA Doctrines were established.

 

[Protector]

But how does she know the ratio? 1 out of 20 or 1 per 100?

I’ve no idea PRmerger. I was merely trying to offer an explanation about where she might have
found scriptural evidence to form the basis of her statement. I really know very little about Ellen G. White other than that she was, and is highly regarded by SDA’s, and that she once lived in New South Wales, Australia in a house named “Sunnyside”. I find myself to be a natural skeptic when it comes to “prophets” of recent times. For myself, I’m inclined more toward the OT prophets as in the parable of “the rich man and Lazarus”, “And Abraham said to him: They have Moses and the prophets. Let them hear them.” (Luke 16:29 New Advent Bible).

Protector.

 

[Pythons]

I’ve no idea PRmerger. I was merely trying to offer an explanation about where she might have
found scriptural evidence to form the basis of her statement. I really know very little about Ellen G. White other than that she was, and is highly regarded by SDA’s, and that she once lived in New South Wales, Australia in a house named “Sunnyside”. I find myself to be a natural skeptic when it comes to “prophets” of recent times. For myself, I’m inclined more toward the OT prophets as in the parable of “the rich man and Lazarus”, “And Abraham said to him: They have Moses and the prophets. Let them hear them.” (Luke 16:29 New Advent Bible).

Protector.

Now that was an excellent point!
…Most excellent.

 

[Richard_Kastner]

Richard Kastner, I’m glad you asked and of course I would be happy to post “some”…
…Catholicism affirms that Christ was not subject to “mutation”.
…Contrasted with what all Adventist systems teach about it.

Adventist Denominations are: Jehovah’s Witnesses, Christadelphians, Seventh-day Adventists & World Wide Church of God 7th day…
…As the Sacred Scriptures confirm - The Catholic Church is right.

Romans 8,28
And we know that to them that love God, all things work together unto good, to such as, according to his purpose, are called to be saints

The key phrase in this Scripture for our issue is “According to His purpose”…
…Where we see in the Old Testament:

Isaiah 14,24
The Lord of hosts hath sworn, saying: Surely as I have thought, so shall it be: and as I have purposed

Isa 46:9
Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me, Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

So, we can establish, from the Scriptures, that what God “has purposed” has absolutely zero possibility of failure…
…The following are affirmations in Scripture of what God “purposed”.

Isaiah 35,4
Say to the fainthearted: Take courage, and fear not: behold your God WILL bring the revenge of recompense: God himself WILL come and WILL save you.Then shall the eyes of the blind be opened, and the ears of the deaf shall be unstopped.Then shall the lame man leap as a hart, and the tongue of the dumb shall be free: for waters are broken out in the desert, and streams in the wilderness.

Once Jesus is identifed AS "The Christ’ that settles the question about failure right then and there…
…God explicitly stated that A) He would come & B) He WOULD SAVE.
…Please read the Gospel account of what Jesus told the disciples of John the Baptist!

Matthew 1,21
And she shall bring forth a son: and thou shalt call his name JESUS. For he **SHALL SAVE **his people from their sins.

For those not up on the “time-hack” Jesus was NOT yet born…
…And the angel of the Lord flat out said the Child within the Blessed Virgin absolutely would SAVE His people from their sins.

Shortly after Jesus is born He is taken to the Jewish Temple in accordance to Jewish law…
…And we see another most interesting statement made.

Luke 2,25
And behold there was a man in Jerusalem named Simeon, and this man was just and devout, waiting for the consolation of Israel; and the Holy Ghost was in him. And he had received an answer from the Holy Ghost, that he should not see death, before he had seen the Christ of the Lord. And he came by the Spirit into the temple. And when his parents brought in the child Jesus, to do for him according to the custom of the law, He also took him into his arms, and blessed God, and said: Now thou dost dismiss thy servant, O Lord, according to thy word in peace; Because my eyes have seen thy salvation, Which thou hast prepared before the face of all peoples

The Holy Ghost had informed Simeon that he would NOT die UNTIL he had witnessed ‘The Christ’…
…Simeon picks up the Baby Jesus, and blessed God because Simeon had just got confirmation.
…The poor little Jewish kid he was holding in his hands WAS THE CHRIST.
…Imagine that!

High level math is not needed to formulate that Jesus ( as an Baby ) WOULD not have been the Christ AS AN INFANT…
…If it was within possibility He could have sinned and lost His Salvation.
…Simeon said he was ready to DIE because God revealed to him that Jesus was indeed the Christ.
…And God promised Simeon he would NOT die UNTIL he witnessed the Christ.
…If Simeon were already an old man he would have had to wait until the Resurrection of Christ prior to his dying!

That defaults that Jesus was, AT THAT TIME, ‘The Christ’…
…Of course the more we read Scripture the more we learn that God The Son was ETERNALLY the Christ.

1st Peter 1,19
But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb unspotted and undefiled, Foreknown indeed before the foundation of the world, but manifested in the last times for you, Who through him are faithful in God, who raised him up from the dead, and hath given him glory, that your faith and hope might be in God

John 3,17
For God sent not his Son into the world, to judge the world, but that the world may be saved by him

Let me ask Pythons, do you think that it was God’s purpose that man sin?