'ALL" calls for excommunication of some Catholic poltiicans who supporting funding of PLANNED PARENTHOOD

[ANNE_2]

I hope this is the correct forum since it is about the “news” recommendation of the “American Life League” to excommunicate all Catholic politicians voting to fund Planned Parenthood.
(I couldn’t find a ‘political’ forum on the forum page.)

calcatholic.com/news/newsArticle.aspx?id=68b16119-e15e-4de0-97bd-f34b595d1a15
Posted on “California Catholic Daily” entitled:
“Enemy of the preborn child, of our children, and of Catholics”

This is the “American Life League” video relating to the article: youtube.com/watch?v=MLUJm6ESV_M

" ALL provided the following list of self-identified Catholic members of Congress who voted against de-funding Planned Parenthood: Jason Altmire, PA; Joe Baca, CA; Xavier Becerra, CA; Timothy H. Bishop, NY; Robert Brady, PA; Michael E. Capuano, MA; Dennis A. Cardoza, CA; John Carney, DE; Hansen Clarke, MI; William Lacy Clay, MO; Gerald E. Connolly, VA; Jim Costa, CA; Joe Courtney, CT; Mark Critz, PA; Joseph Crowley, NY; Henry Cuellar, TX; Peter DeFazio, OR; Rosa L. DeLauro, CT; John D. Dingell, MI; Richael F. Doyle, PA; Anna Eshoo, CA; Charlie Gonzalez, TX; Raul M. Grijalva, AZ; Richard Hanna, NY; Brian Higgins, NY; Maurice D. Hinchey, NY; Tim Holden, PA; Marcy Kaptur, OH; Dale E. Kildee, MI; Dennis J. Kucinich, OH; James R. Langevin, RI; John B. Larson, CT; Ben Ray Lujan, NM; Stephen F. Lynch, MA; Ed Markey, MA; Carolyn McCarthy, NY; James P. McGovern, MA; Jerry McNerney, CA; Michael H. Michaud, MA; George Miller, CA; James P. Moran, VA; Grace F. Napolitano, CA; Richard E. Neal, MA; Bill Owens,NY; Frank Pallone,NJ; Bill Pascrell,NJ; Ed Pastor, AZ; Nancy Pelosi, CA; Mike Quigley, IL; Charles B. Rangel, NY; Lucille Roybal-Allard, CA; Tim Ryan, OH; Linda T. Sanchez, CA; Loretta Sanchez, CA; Jose E. Serrano, NY; Albio Sires, NJ; Jackie Speier, CA; Mike Thompson, CA; Paul Tonko, NY; Nydia M. Velazquez, NY; Peter J. Visclosky, IN; Peter Welch, VT. "

Is your House Congressperson on this list? - public voting record.

 

[PatrickSebast]

That really isn’t their business or responsibility and it honestly seems like a dangerous road to travel down. Excommunication is a matter for Bishops to decide and is related to the state of a soul, not political maneuvering.

 

[rmartensjr]

That really isn’t their business or responsibility and it honestly seems like a dangerous road to travel down. Excommunication is a matter for Bishops to decide and is related to the state of a soul, not political maneuvering.

AMEN to that. I have been doing pro-life work for 30 years and ALL (American Life League) has done more HARM than good during its entire existence.

 

[ANNE_2]

Remember that it is a MORTAL sin for Catholic Politicians to support abortion by their public votes or in any other way.
It is a MORTAL sin to receive the Eucharist while in the state of Mortal Sin - Sacrilege.

It is a MORTAL sin to commit SCANDAL. Those who publically profess to be Catholic yet support baby killing, and set the example that abortion is OK, and make it easier to procure abortions with taxpayer dollars commit scandal. CCC 2284.

It is a MORTAL sin to receive the Eucharist while in the state of Mortal Sin - Sacrilege.

Innocent human beings - Babies are being killed due to government funding and scandalous behavior.ehd.org/movies.php?mov_id=44

It is a mortal sin for us to vote for pro-abortion politicians.

CCC - " 1868 Sin is a personal act. Moreover, we have a responsibility for the sins committed by others when we cooperate in them:

• by participating directly and voluntarily in them;
• by ordering, advising, praising, or approving them;
• by not disclosing or not hindering them when we have an obligation to do so;
• by protecting evil-doers. "

CCC - " 1869 Thus sin makes men accomplices of one another and causes concupiscence, violence, and injustice to reign among them. Sins give rise to social situations and institutions that are contrary to the divine goodness. “Structures of sin” are the expression and effect of personal sins. They lead their victims to do evil in their turn. In an analogous sense, they constitute a "social sin. "

 

[Dale_M]

Remember that it is a MORTAL sin for Catholic Politicians to support abortion by their public votes or in any other way.

Yes, but the vote did not fund abortion. Under the Hyde Amendment, federal funding for abortion is illegal in the US.

I realize that some pro-life activists argue that if governmental funding for non-abortion services is cut off, that may indirectly crimp the availability of abortion. But its a speculative argument, and it is a political issue… not a religious issue. ALL is overstepping itself in calling for excommunications over this vote.

 

[ANNE_2]

Yes, but the vote did not fund abortion. Under the Hyde Amendment, federal funding for abortion is illegal in the US.

I realize that some pro-life activists argue that if governmental funding for non-abortion services is cut off, that may indirectly crimp the availability of abortion. But its a speculative argument, and it is a political issue… not a religious issue. ALL is overstepping itself in calling for excommunications over this vote.

The Hyde Amendment is no longer in effect under Obamacare.
It was never codified, and therefor needed approval to continue to exist. The Dem Pres, and controlling Dem House, and Dem Senate refused to voted to continue the Hyde Amendment.

Taxpayer dollars should not be used for the killing of babies.
ehd.org/movies.php?mov_id=44

Abortion is a religious, moral, and ethical issue.
See the “Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition” - section on Abortion - # 2270 through # 2275.
scborromeo.org/ccc.htm (in middle of page you can search by paragraph numbers).
You may also be interested in # 1868 & 1869 - having a responsibility for the sins committed by others.

 

[Dale_M]

The Hyde Amendment is no longer in effect under Obamacare.
It was never codified, and therefor needed approval to continue to exist.

Okay, I guess I am surprised. Would you happen to have a news link on that?

 

[TMC]

The Hyde Amendment is no longer in effect under Obamacare.
It was never codified, and therefor needed approval to continue to exist. The Dem Pres, and controlling Dem House, and Dem Senate refused to voted to continue the Hyde Amendment.

Taxpayer dollars should not be used for the killing of babies.
ehd.org/movies.php?mov_id=44

Abortion is a religious, moral, and ethical issue.
See the “Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition” - section on Abortion - # 2270 through # 2275.
scborromeo.org/ccc.htm (in middle of page you can search by paragraph numbers).
You may also be interested in # 1868 & 1869 - having a responsibility for the sins committed by others.

The first two sentences are not true. The Hyde amendment remains in effect. There was a move to put language identical to the Hyde amendment language into the health care bill, which passed the House but not the Senate. The Senate language was opposed by most Senate Democrats, but also by some Senate Republicans. The president then issued an executive order which effectively put the same restrictions onto the health care bill as the Hyde language would have. But through all of that, the Hyde amendment has remained in place.

 

[Suudy]

The first two sentences are not true.

The first sentence is true. The Hyde amendment only applies to funds appropriated via an omnibus spending bill and spent through the HHS. Any funds appropriated in Obamacare are not subject to the Hyde amendment.

As for the send, it is mostly true. There hasn’t been a budget passed, only continuing resolutions. So the Hyde amendment only continues because it is continued, and has not been explicitly voted upon.

I’ve posted on this numerous times:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=7542198&postcount=48

The Hyde amendment remains in effect. There was a move to put language identical to the Hyde amendment language into the health care bill, which passed the House but not the Senate. The Senate language was opposed by most Senate Democrats, but also by some Senate Republicans. The president then issued an executive order which effectively put the same restrictions onto the health care bill as the Hyde language would have. But through all of that, the Hyde amendment has remained in place.

As for the EO, it is not a real solution. The Mexico City policy has been a frequent back-and-forth and demonstrates the exact problem with this means of limiting spending. The only reason Obama issued the EO was to make sure Obamacare got passed. He didn’t do it out of any conviction to limit spending on abortion in Obamacare. So why should we think his EO will remain in place later in his presidency (say in a second term where he doesn’t need to make politically expedient decisions)? Why should it remain in subsequent presidencies?

 

[stmike38]

Seems everybody is missing the point. Catholic politicians who support, defend or promote abortion are creating a grave scandal and are in mortal sin in more ways than one. They’ve actually excommunicated themselves already. They should be publicly excommunicated because of their public position on the matter. Denying them Holy Communion prevents them from committing another mortal sin and that’s receiving Holy Communion in a state of mortal sin. Excommunication will also stop the the profanation of The Eucharist. Excommunication in these cases is an act of charity preventing the sinner from multiplying their sins. It’s also the clergy’s duty to protect the Eucharist from profanation.

 

[Dale_M]

Seems everybody is missing the point. Catholic politicians who support, defend or promote abortion are creating a grave scandal and are in mortal sin in more ways than one.

Yes, that is true. However, it is irrelevant to the vote that is being discussed since the vote was not about funding abortion.

 

[Abyssinia]

Most Rev. Samuel J. Aquila has spoken out against pro aboriton politicians recieving Communian: lifesitenews.com/news/us-bishop-how-long-will-pro-abort-politicians-be-able-to-receive-communion

Canon 915: “Those upon whom the penalty of excommunication or interdict has been imposed or declared, and others who obstinately persist in manifest grave sin, are not to be admitted to holy communion.”

Giving Communian to pro aboriton politcians undermines the faith, and what message does it send to Catholics? You wonder why Catholics vote Democrat? When a pro abortion politican recieves communion it makes Catholics think, this is fine, acceptable.

 

[George_2007]

Yes, but the vote did not fund abortion. Under the Hyde Amendment, federal funding for abortion is illegal in the US.

I realize that some pro-life activists argue that if governmental funding for non-abortion services is cut off, that may indirectly crimp the availability of abortion. But its a speculative argument, and it is a political issue… not a religious issue. ALL is overstepping itself in calling for excommunications over this vote.

Dale and Patrick, you are throwing the cloak of “political issue” over this matter to avoid the plain implications of what is going on in our country. “Political issue” is code for “I must put this in a separate box so my conscience doesn’t see it.” Our laws are made by political process. Legal issues are therefore necessarily also political issues. Laws are the civil authority’s mechanism for enforcing the moral order. Religion defends the truth of natural morality and rightfully admonishes the civil authority for neglegence in ensuring the law, both criminal law and laws for public spending and policy, promotes that morality.

It’s both a religious issue as well as a political issue. Whether a call for excommunication by lay people is a good strategy or not, you cannot dismiss this as being a political issue.

This is the same kind of thinking that causes abortion to remain legal in this country. The majority of people believe it is wrong. A slim majority, though, think it should be legal. Why? Because enough people buy into the myths that religion and politics should in no way mix, that religious morality is different than regular morality, that if you learned something in church then it’s off limits for the public square, that to force one’s “personal” beliefs on others is wrong, etc. This false compartmentalization is what is keeping abortion legal.

Planned Parenthood is the abortion industry and is the culture of death. If the letter of the law says the funds can’t go to abortion and PP can technically prove through business reporting that the public money doesn’t directly pay for abortions, so what? If the KKK did community work that has nothing overtly to do with racism (I think they actually do) and they applied for federal funding and their audited records could show that no federal dollars went directly to cross burning, would that be not a big deal? Would civil rights activitsts who tried to shame congress into defunding the KKK be just “playing politics?”

Stop creating little compartments for evil to hide. Stop looking at the technicalities as excuses to look the other way. Stop writing off courageous Christians who are speaking truth to power, however awkwardly you think they are doing so, as “political.”

 

[PatrickSebast]

Dale and Patrick, you are throwing the cloak of “political issue” over this matter to avoid the plain implications of what is going on in our country. “Political issue” is code for “I must put this in a separate box so my conscience doesn’t see it.” Our laws are made by political process. Legal issues are therefore necessarily also political issues. Laws are the civil authority’s mechanism for enforcing the moral order. Religion defends the truth of natural morality and rightfully admonishes the civil authority for neglegence in ensuring the law, both criminal law and laws for public spending and policy, promotes that morality.

It’s both a religious issue as well as a political issue. Whether a call for excommunication by lay people is a good strategy or not, you cannot dismiss this as being a political issue.

I’m not throwing any cloak over anything. ALL isn’t calling for the excommunication of these politician out of love and concern for them. Excommunication is a Bishop issue which Bishops should decide on, not laity. I completely support measures to weaken abortion, as I would completely have supported measures taken to weaken the KKK. However I would not support a lay group publicly promoting the excommunications of those involved in the KKK. This isn’t a matter where ALL is simply notifying a bunch of blind Bishops of what is happening right under their noses, the Bishops are well aware of what is going on. The problem is that ALL is calling for something outside their particular authority.

 

[Rascalking]

I’m not throwing any cloak over anything. ALL isn’t calling for the excommunication of these politician out of love and concern for them. Excommunication is a Bishop issue which Bishops should decide on, not laity. I completely support measures to weaken abortion, as I would completely have supported measures taken to weaken the KKK. However I would not support a lay group publicly promoting the excommunications of those involved in the KKK. This isn’t a matter where ALL is simply notifying a bunch of blind Bishops of what is happening right under their noses, the Bishops are well aware of what is going on. The problem is that ALL is calling for something outside their particular authority.

Patrick, did you read my mind? This is excatly what I was thinking.

 

[Rascalking]

AMEN to that. I have been doing pro-life work for 30 years and ALL (American Life League) has done more HARM than good during its entire existence.

YES! I’m in the same boat you are my friend. Not for 30 years though. I think they’re (ALL) more like the pesty, drunk ex boyfriend/girlfriend you have that you can’t seem to get rid of. They’re always making things worse for your current mate!

 

[ANNE_2]

I’m not throwing any cloak over anything. ALL isn’t calling for the excommunication of these politician out of love and concern for them. Excommunication is a Bishop issue which Bishops should decide on, not laity. I completely support measures to weaken abortion, as I would completely have supported measures taken to weaken the KKK. However I would not support a lay group publicly promoting the excommunications of those involved in the KKK. This isn’t a matter where ALL is simply notifying a bunch of blind Bishops of what is happening right under their noses, the Bishops are well aware of what is going on. The problem is that ALL is calling for something outside their particular authority.

SCANDAL within the Church is the business of all Catholics. It harms the entire body of Christ. And until such Scandal is corrected it is the business of all Catholics.

By the way all Bishops do NOT follow the voting records of all Catholic politicians in their Diocese, and a letter with documentation advises them so they can check it out.
Why would any Catholic try to discourage anyone from sending a documented (public voting record) letter to any Bishop? - unless they had an ulterior motive.
If the point is that only Bishops can excommunicate someone from their own Diocese - that is correct.

As a retired Legislative Aide I can tell you that, Executive Orders mean nothing except from the President (Boss) to his Administration (Staff of US Government) only.
They can be changed at any time by the President without the consent of anyone, and since Obama is pro-abortion, he only signed it to ensure passage of his bill and for a photo-op cover for those Catholic Representatives who voted for Obamacare as written. His administration has been pushing abortion at the UN, and in Mexico tying our foreign aide subject to abortion (politically correct - women’s reproductive issues.)

Next Obamacare was passed by Congress and signed into law in late 2010. The Hyde Amendment is no longer in effect. Obamacare’s first stages have already gone into effect.
Most of the States in the lawsuit regarding its Constitutionality, are not accepting any Obamacare funds at this time.

 

[Rich_Olszewski]

Excommunication is a Bishop issue which Bishops should decide on, not laity.

However I would not support a lay group publicly promoting the excommunications of those involved in the KKK. This isn’t a matter where ALL is simply notifying a bunch of blind Bishops of what is happening right under their noses, the Bishops are well aware of what is going on. The problem is that ALL is calling for something outside their particular authority.

All the smug Catholics telling the bishops what they should do, as though the episcopate were blind and ignorant.

If the Ordinary decides that public excommunication is called for, then he’ll carry it out. Otherwise, it’s not my job to tell him how to do his!

 

[Rascalking]

All the smug Catholics telling the bishops what they should do, as though the episcopate were blind and ignorant.

If the Ordinary decides that public excommunication is called for, then he’ll carry it out. Otherwise, it’s not my job to tell him how to do his!

Hey now-I’m going to tell the Boston Red Sox how to do their jobs if things don’t work out soon.

 

[Dale_M]

Dale and Patrick, you are throwing the cloak of “political issue” over this matter to avoid the plain implications of what is going on in our country. “Political issue” is code for “I must put this in a separate box so my conscience doesn’t see it.”

George, you seem to be missing the main point which I made. The vote which is the topic of this thread was not about abortion. It involved, in a very small part, federal funding which would go to Planned Parenthood.

ALL, on the basis of a political calculation, is equating the vote with supporting abortion. It is a speculative calculation, and one which is certainly open to question. However, there is nothing wrong with ALL advancing that line of argument.

The problem is that ALL is jumping that discussion. It is bluntly asserting that those politicians voted in favor of abortion, something which isn’t true at face value. And then ALL calls for excommunication on the basis of its questionable interpretation of the vote.