All Graces Come Through Mary

[TrueLight]

Asking what the Church teaches is fine. Asking to have it explained is fine too, but don’t expect laity on forums to have any better answers than the Church documents and the writings of Saints.

Those who are not confirmed Catholics will tend to question certain Dogmas and Doctrines. Some of these Doctrines and Dogmas are easy to understand and some are not so easy. Those that can’t be fully understood must still be believed and accepted. That is where faith comes in. It’s the next step.

We have to ask ourselves, “do I think I have the mental capacity to understand all that is supernatural ?” There are 3 answers to that. 1 - No, I don’t. 2 - Yes, I do. or… 3 - I don’t believe in the supernatural.

Anyone who answers 2 will never submit fully to faith, and 3 ? They have no faith.

I think true Roman Catholics must answer # 1.

jmo

In my opinion, I don’t think one should automatically categorize people because they are asking questions.

If everything were all laid out neatly, it would be easy. However, there are tons of documents and encyclicals. Some Saints focus on Mary, while some focus on Christ.

Right now, I’m reading the Imitation of Christ, by Kemp, who though not a Saint, some think he should be. I am 3/4 of the way through the book and it is all about emulating Christ, not emulating Mary.

Although of course, Mary is worthy of emulation indeed.

What I am trying to to do with this poll, is get the pulse, of not only how important Marian devotion is to serious Catholics, as most of the people on CAF appear to be, but how central it is to the Catholic faith itself.

We can’t be saved without God’s sanctifying and actual graces. I need to understand if it is true, as one poster said in the other thread, that it would be extremely difficult to be saved without devotion to Mary and how much of a role she plays in dispensing graces.

 

[Planty_Pall]

Withholding Grace is not of God,how could this be of the BVM? You do this through your own free-will. God does not wish you to fall out of grace. That is not even in the equation.

To save our souls we have an obligation to keep the faith. This is not a blind or vague concept. In fact Faith is very well defined.

Faith is an infused supernatural virtue that each of us have received at the moment of Baptism. However we have an obligation to preserve this virtue. We have an obligation to preserve our faith.

The basis of our salvation is our faith. It is impossible to please God without Faith. Faith alone is obviously not enough, yet the Faith is absolutely necessary for our salvation. If our faith is lost through our own free will we cannot be saved unless we re-gain the faith.

St Thomas points out that a heretic really doesn’t have the faith. Otherwise he would accept everything that God teaches. Because he choose’s to accept this or that dogma, he has only a kind of opinion which in many ways may agree with the Articles of Faith.

However because a heretic rejects some Dogmas his belief is not based on faith. Where-as a man/woman who believes everything God teachs is TRUE because the faithful soul knows that God who is all Holy cannot tell a lie. And God who is all knowing cannot be mistaken.

Many of us as Catholics “think” we can go good on our own. Or any good we have in not through the grace of God. It would be easier to live without oxygen, than to be Good without Grace. We depend on Grace for any goodness we have instant to instant.

Now to relate this to Catholic teaching and to the BVM, you would have read the other thread #133 and Pope Benedicts August 2011 homily which is a couple posts before.

However this is the paradigm the CC teaches. Should you follow another Moral Model I cannot know. I also am not trying to connect two different paradigms since I find this one correct. So in essense we have a couple different ideas going on here.

Peace

Gary Taylor I agree. I didn’t like the bit about “withholding graces”, but I responded in the affirmative to the first choice as best representing the Catholic teaching among the options.

"…as all living things in the order of nature receive their life from the influence of Heaven, so does Holy Church teach us that the life of grace is given to us through the Blessed Virgin Mary: Vitam datam per Virginem." —St. John Eudes, The Admirable Heart of Mary, Loreto Publications 2004, p. 41, Imprimatur Francis Cardinal Spellman, Abp. of New York, Dec. 5, 1947

True Light, Hi.

I don’t wish to discourage you. On the other hand, I sponsored my best friend into the Catholic Church in 2002 who has subsequently apostasized, as best as I can discern, in great part because of an inability to accept the Church’s teaching on Our Lady. If you don’t like this teaching at this time, maybe it would be better to wait.

With all charity, I say to you what I have said to him: Where else can you go? Are you going to be a Lutheran? A Russian Orthodox? What else is there? God loves you and me and my friend very much. I have great hope that my dear friend will come back through the graces of God which in His great Providence, are distributed through a creature, the Blessed Mother of Christ our God. How does the fact that God distributes grace through the instrument of a mere creature derogate from His great omnipotence? Undoubtedly, God could bypass all creatures in the economy of salvation, but it is very fitting that as by a woman, man fell, so by a woman, man should be saved!

Assuredly, True Light, you have indicated a truly a great anticipatory enthusiasm for receiving your First Holy Communion, when for fifteen or twenty minutes, your God and Creator will be really and truly present in you in every conceivable fashion. Undoubtedly, you rightly expect to perceive this as a sort of spiritual pinnacle in your life. But I pray you, consider what graces you hope for having Our Lord present in you for a fleeting period of time of less than an hour, in contrast with her who was so privileged as to have given God her very physical life, and Him His spirtual life to her for nine months without interruption.

Much more could be said, and has been, by Catholic saints of every age, of whom I implore heaven, for you dear friend, that through the prayers of the saints and angels who recognize the Queen of Heaven and Earth, that by the grace of God, you could never be scandalized at the heights of sanctity reached by the Blessed Mother of God Almighty, as faithfully taught by the Catholic Church. God bless and keep you, dear friend in Christ.

Planty Pall

 

[TrueLight]

With all charity, I say to you what I have said to him: Where else can you go? Are you going to be a Lutheran? A Russian Orthodox?

Nope.

I have seen many instances during my journey into the Catholic Church of God preparing the way for me. He will not abandon me.

How does the fact that God distributes grace through the instrument of a mere creature derogate from His great omnipotence? Undoubtedly, God could bypass all creatures in the economy of salvation, but it is very fitting that as by a woman, man fell, so by a woman, man should be saved!

I like the way you explained this. Of course God can use his creation to distribute grace.

However, how do we get from that to “The Glories of Mary”?

Much more could be said, and has been, by Catholic saints of every age, of whom I implore heaven, for you dear friend, that through their prayers, and the grace of God, you could never be scandalized at the heights of sanctity reached by the Blessed Mother of God Almighty. God bless and keep you, dear friend in Christ.

Thank you.

 

[justtryin]

Right now, I’m reading the Imitation of Christ, by Kemp, who though not a Saint, some think he should be. I am 3/4 of the way through the book and it is all about emulating Christ, not emulating Mary.

Although of course, Mary is worthy of emulation indeed. .

That is the beauty of the Catholic Faith. We all want to emulate Christ. However, that is not always an easy thing to do. We are all different and respond in kind. But there are so many Holy Saints that everyone is sure to find similarities to at least one Saintly person. This I believe is a grace of God. For it is the life and virtue of that Saint most like you who can assist if you stumble on the path to Christ. Do we not learn best by example? Whether that example is to be found in His Holy Mother Mary or His Holy Brother Thomas a Kempis, as long as it helps us in our struggle to emulate Christ, is all that matters.

God Bless you and His Church

 

[TrueLight]

That is the beauty of the Catholic Faith. We all want to emulate Christ. However, that is not always an easy thing to do. We are all different and respond in kind. But there are so many Holy Saints that everyone is sure to find similarities to at least one Saintly person. This I believe is a grace of God. For it is the life and virtue of that Saint most like you who can assist if you stumble on the path to Christ. Do we not learn best by example? Whether that example is to be found in His Holy Mother Mary or His Holy Brother Thomas a Kempis, as long as it helps us in our struggle to emulate Christ, is all that matters.

God Bless you and His Church

 

[jmj1984]

I want to thank everyone for the current and future responses.

I guess I can’t tell what is flowery language and what is a genuine belief that “without Mary, we can do nothing.” I am not saying anyone said those words specifically, but this is what I am feeling.

When you look at the CCC which is what most Catholics read, there is definitely a section on Mary, but it is not so Mary-Centric. I thought the CCC was a good summary of Catholic belief. Now I’m not so sure.

The CCC isn’t perfect and no one said it was, aside from that it really only lists De Fide dogmas, beliefs such as Mary being co-redemptrix, mediatrix etc… are not De Fide they are Fide Proxima that is ‘Close to the faith. It is not a dogma but the church has always believed it and it could be a dogma at any time. (e.g. Mary as Co-Redemptrix: Our Lady had first role in helping Our Lord in redemption, although only Jesus saves) This is a Sententia Fide Proxima, that is you may not deny it without fear of punishment from God’ or I suppose someone could state they were Sententia Certa that is ‘It is not actually of the faith but we are very sure about it’ For that reason then they are not included in the CCC.

There is within the catholic faith a hierarchy of truths:
1)Those that must be believed, De Fide
2)Those that are not De Fide but have always been believed by the church and so it is very unwise to deny them
3)Those that many over a long period of history have held to be true and so it is unwise to deny them without good cause
4)It is probable, they may be denied though we should always have a good reason for doing so

A more indepth explanation of that idea can be found here

I wouldn’t leave or be troubled just because you have difficulty with some of the almost dogma ideas regarding Mary it took me some years and much spiritual growth to get over my reluctance and resistance to them and I still have issues with the idea of Mary as Mediatrix. Regardless I still try to assent to the almost dogma and maybe one day I will.

 

[TrueLight]

The CCC isn’t perfect and no one said it was, aside from that it really only lists De Fide dogmas, beliefs such as Mary being co-redemptrix, mediatrix etc… are not De Fide they are Fide Proxima that is ‘Close to the faith. It is not a dogma but the church has always believed it and it could be a dogma at any time. (e.g. Mary as Co-Redemptrix: Our Lady had first role in helping Our Lord in redemption, although only Jesus saves) This is a Sententia Fide Proxima, that is you may not deny it without fear of punishment from God’ or I suppose someone could state they were Sententia Certa that is ‘It is not actually of the faith but we are very sure about it’ For that reason then they are not included in the CCC.

There is within the catholic faith a hierarchy of truths:
1)Those that must be believed, De Fide
2)Those that are not De Fide but have always been believed by the church and so it is very unwise to deny them
3)Those that many over a long period of history have held to be true and so it is unwise to deny them without good cause
4)It is probable, they may be denied though we should always have a good reason for doing so

A more indepth explanation of that idea can be found here
**
I wouldn’t leave or be troubled just because you have difficulty with some of the almost dogma ideas regarding Mary it took me some years and much spiritual growth to get over my reluctance and resistance to them and I still have issues with the idea of Mary as Mediatrix. Regardless I still try to assent to the almost dogma and maybe one day I will.**

Thank you for this informative post. The last paragraph that I bolded is very encouraging to me.

 

[choliks]

The CCC isn’t perfect and no one said it was, aside from that it really only lists De Fide dogmas, beliefs such as Mary being co-redemptrix, mediatrix etc… are not De Fide they are Fide Proxima that is ‘Close to the faith. It is not a dogma but the church has always believed it and it could be a dogma at any time. (e.g. Mary as Co-Redemptrix: Our Lady had first role in helping Our Lord in redemption, although only Jesus saves) This is a Sententia Fide Proxima, that is you may not deny it without fear of punishment from God’ or I suppose someone could state they were Sententia Certa that is ‘It is not actually of the faith but we are very sure about it’ For that reason then they are not included in the CCC.

There is within the catholic faith a hierarchy of truths:
1)Those that must be believed, De Fide
2)Those that are not De Fide but have always been believed by the church and so it is very unwise to deny them
3)Those that many over a long period of history have held to be true and so it is unwise to deny them without good cause
4)It is probable, they may be denied though we should always have a good reason for doing so

A more indepth explanation of that idea can be found here

I wouldn’t leave or be troubled just because you have difficulty with some of the almost dogma ideas regarding Mary it took me some years and much spiritual growth to get over my reluctance and resistance to them and I still have issues with the idea of Mary as Mediatrix. Regardless I still try to assent to the almost dogma and maybe one day I will.

Great post. Same here. I’ve been Catholic all my life and I still find the idea of Mary as Mediatrix a little bit hard to swallow. Maybe someday i will assent to it.

 

[At_Trent]

Although of course, Mary is worthy of emulation indeed.

That is all the Church requires we accept.

Now, I have to ask. When the day comes and you have your first confession, what will you do if your penance is to pray a decade of Aves while meditating on one of the Mysteries ?

 

[TimothyH]

Right now, I’m reading the Imitation of Christ, by Kemp, who though not a Saint, some think he should be. I am 3/4 of the way through the book and it is all about emulating Christ, not emulating Mary.

There are a series of writings by Kempis, assembled similarly to those which make up The Imitation of Christ, which are collectively titled “The Imitation of Mary.”

Tell me you didn’t see that coming?

Be careful with Kempis. He was an ascetic monk, sworn to obedience and cloistered life. Some of his teaching is not applicable to those of us who are not cloistered monks. An example is Book 3, Chapter 11, Paragraph 5. He speaks of chastising the body, compelling it to serve, and even states that we must use violence to compell our body to serve the spirit. This is fine for a monk who is vowed to poverty and obedience, and who breaks that vow only under the penalty of sin. We are under no such vow and so do not sin by enjoying a doughnut in moderation, a glass of wine with friends or a sunday barbeque with the family.

TIOC is an awsome work. Just be careful. Sorry to go off topic.

-Tim-

 

[TimothyH]

Thank you for this informative post. The last paragraph that I bolded is very encouraging to me.

I’ll add that it is something that I have had to pray for.

Intellectual assent is one thing, but ineriorizing it is another. Setting the heart on fire is yet another thing still.

For me, the Church has been correct so many times, that there is a critical mass of trust established. Like a compass that has never steered me wrong, even when I think it might be pointing the wrong way, I trust it and go where it points. I do this because has always been correct in the past. Every time I question, seek, ask, study, wonder, or pray for revelation, the Church winds up bring right all along and my disbelief or lack of understanding is unfounded.

Just understand that the Church teaches that all grace flows to you through Mary and according to her good pleasure. And rest easy in the assurance that as sure as Jesus lived inside her womb, her good pleasure is in perfect conformity to Christ’s good pleasure.

And know that there are many praying for you.

-Tim-

 

[SouthpawLink]

Papal support for the doctrine:

“Therefore, no less truly and properly may it be affirmed that nothing at all of the very great treasure of every grace, which the Lord confers, since ‘grace and truth came by Jesus Christ’ [John 1:17], nothing is imparted to us except through Mary, God so willing; so, just as no one can approach the highest Father except through the Son, so no one can approach Christ except through His Mother” (Pope Leo XIII, Octobri Mense, n. 4; 22 September 1891).

papalencyclicals.net/Leo13/l13ro1.htm
See also: papalencyclicals.net/Leo13/l13ro5.htm
papalencyclicals.net/Leo13/l13adiut.htm

“As the result of this participation between Mary and Christ in the sorrows and the will, she deserved most worthily to be made the restorer of the lost world, and so the dispenser of all the gifts which Jesus procured for us by His death and blood. . . . Since she excels all in sanctity, and by her union with Christ and by her adoption by Christ for the work of man’s salvation, she merited for us de congruo, as they say, what Christ merited de condigno, and is the first minister of the graces to be bestowed” (Pope St. Pius X, Ad Diem Illum Laetissimum, nn. 13-14; 2 February 1904).

papalencyclicals.net/Pius10/p10imcon.htm
See also: papalencyclicals.net/Pius11/P11CARIT.HTM
papalencyclicals.net/Pius12/P12CLERG.HTM

N.B: My quotes are from the online edition of Denzinger: catecheticsonline.com/SourcesofDogma.php

Bluegoat:

Hmm. So, what about the graces given to Adam and Eve before the Fall? Did they come through Mary?

Are there any examples of this being said or asserted in the Fathers?

All graces have come through Mary after her Assumption to and Coronation in Heaven. She is a creature and so exists in time.

 

[choliks]

Please correct me if I’m wrong in my understanding…

Is this because the birth of our Lord is as timeless as His sacrifice on the cross?

 

[TrueLight]

That is all the Church requires we accept.

Now, I have to ask. When the day comes and you have your first confession, what will you do if your penance is to pray a decade of Aves while meditating on one of the Mysteries ?

It won’t be a problem because I do pray the rosary.

Again, I believe Mary should be venerated.

I am just not comfortable focusing my spiritual life on Mary or consecrating myself to her sacred heart, etc.

 

[joshrp]

We were discussing this in another thread and I want to take take a poll, because I am very concerned.

In fact, my heart is aching right now, because I fear I may have misunderstood Catholicism all along. I see Catholicism as a Christian religion based on Christ’s sacrifice where, his Blessed mother is honored above all the Saints and intercedes for us.

I do not see Catholicism as a Marian religion, through whom everything passes and eventually ends up with Christ.

I am very troubled.

Please be charitable.

Christ came to us through Mary. We must go through Mary to go to Christ.

 

[TrueLight]

There are a series of writings by Kempis, assembled similarly to those which make up The Imitation of Christ, which are collectively titled “The Imitation of Mary.”

Tell me you didn’t see that coming?

I actually did not. I’m definitely going to check it out.

Be careful with Kempis. He was an ascetic monk, sworn to obedience and cloistered life. Some of his teaching is not applicable to those of us who are not cloistered monks. An example is Book 3, Chapter 11, Paragraph 5. He speaks of chastising the body, compelling it to serve, and even states that we must use violence to compell our body to serve the spirit. This is fine for a monk who is vowed to poverty and obedience, and who breaks that vow only under the penalty of sin. We are under no such vow and so do not sin by enjoying a doughnut in moderation, a glass of wine with friends or a sunday barbeque with the family.

Yes I know.

 

[TrueLight]

I’ll add that it is something that I have had to pray for.

Intellectual assent is one thing, but ineriorizing it is another. Setting the heart on fire is yet another thing still.

For me, the Church has been correct so many times, that there is a critical mass of trust established. Like a compass that has never steered me wrong, even when I think it might be pointing the wrong way, I trust it and go where it points. I do this because has always been correct in the past. Every time I question, seek, ask, study, wonder, or pray for revelation, the Church winds up bring right all along and my disbelief or lack of understanding is unfounded.

Just understand that the Church teaches that all grace flows to you through Mary and according to her good pleasure. And rest easy in the assurance that as sure as Jesus lived inside her womb, her good pleasure is in perfect conformity to Christ’s good pleasure.

And know that there are many praying for you.

-Tim-

Thank you.

 

[TrueLight]

Papal support for the doctrine:

“Therefore, no less truly and properly may it be affirmed that nothing at all of the very great treasure of every grace, which the Lord confers, since ‘grace and truth came by Jesus Christ’ [John 1:17], nothing is imparted to us except through Mary, God so willing; so, just as no one can approach the highest Father except through the Son, so no one can approach Christ except through His Mother” (Pope Leo XIII, Octobri Mense, n. 4; 22 September 1891).

papalencyclicals.net/Leo13/l13ro1.htm
See also: papalencyclicals.net/Leo13/l13ro5.htm
papalencyclicals.net/Leo13/l13adiut.htm

“As the result of this participation between Mary and Christ in the sorrows and the will, she deserved most worthily to be made the restorer of the lost world, and so the dispenser of all the gifts which Jesus procured for us by His death and blood. . . . Since she excels all in sanctity, and by her union with Christ and by her adoption by Christ for the work of man’s salvation, she merited for us de congruo, as they say, what Christ merited de condigno, and is the first minister of the graces to be bestowed” (Pope St. Pius X, Ad Diem Illum Laetissimum, nn. 13-14; 2 February 1904).

papalencyclicals.net/Pius10/p10imcon.htm
See also: papalencyclicals.net/Pius11/P11CARIT.HTM
papalencyclicals.net/Pius12/P12CLERG.HTM

N.B: My quotes are from the online edition of Denzinger: catecheticsonline.com/SourcesofDogma.php

All graces have come through Mary after her Assumption to and Coronation in Heaven. She is a creature and so exists in time.

Thanks for posting this.

So just to be clear, what I have highlighted in bold and red is OFFICIAL church teaching or is it the opinion of Pope Leo?

I would also appreciate the imput of those who don’t describe themselves as trads.

"Therefore, no less truly and properly may it be affirmed that nothing at all of the very great treasure of every grace, which the Lord confers, since ‘grace and truth came by Jesus Christ’ [John 1:17], nothing is imparted to us except through Mary, God so willing; so, just as no one can approach the highest Father except through the Son, so no one can approach Christ except through His Mother" (Pope Leo XIII, Octobri Mense, n. 4; 22 September 1891).

It is vitally important that I understand this.

And then I will discuss this with my priest.

Thanks.

 

[justtryin]

So just to be clear, what I have highlighted in bold and red is OFFICIAL church teaching or is it the opinion of Pope Leo?

It doesn’t necessarily mean you must stop everything and pray ONLY to, seek ONLY from, or ALWAYS address Our Lady. I would think it is more a statement on the natural progression of things.

It is more a profession of how things work rather than a profession of what we must do.

I hope that makes sense.

 

[TrueLight]

It doesn’t necessarily mean you must stop everything and pray ONLY to, seek ONLY from, or ALWAYS address Our Lady. I would think it is more a statement on the natural progression of things.

It is more a profession of how things work rather than a profession of what we must do.

I hope that makes sense.

Yes and no. The progression of things is to eventually go to Mary?