All Graces Come Through Mary

[TrueLight]

As an Eastern Catholic, when I went to Latin Catholic high school, I saw there was some serious differences in approach to our Lady and the Saints.

In fact, today I will say that Roman Catholic theology of the veneration of the Saints and why we do is underdeveloped.

For the Christian East, there is an emphasis on Theosis, our divinization/deification in Christ, the God-Man through the Holy Spirit. We become partakers in the life of the Holy Trinity which transforms us. God truly does “deify” us in Christ through ceaseless prayer, the constant reception of the Sacraments and the other elements of the life of the Church.

Iconography symbolizes this transformation in Christ and Christ truly does live in us with the Father and the Spirit as God’s Temple.

This is why, in the East, services to the Saints are truly Divine Services. We pray to Christ Who lives in His Saints and especially in His Most Holy Mother, the pinnacle of holiness.

The Saints do not take us away from God at all. Christ Himself took on our nature to save it and deify it so that we may all become deified in the Son of God. We are saved not by going to the invisible God alone - but by going to the visible God-Man. The Christian experience of Incarnational salvation is extended throughout. We are saved by Christ but through His Body which is the Church and via the Communion of Saints. We are all called to become “mediators” in Christ.

Is Mary Co-Redemptrix? Of course she is! We too are called to follow in that role.

After my negative experiences in a Latin Catholic college, I can only say that I’m staying clear of contemporary RC theology and especially theology pertaining to the saints and sanctification.

For me, it smacks of Protestantism, plain and simple. If there are Catholics who way they would leave the Church re: the Co-Redemptrix issue - they are theologically and most probably already half-way out of the Church now.

Alex

Based on the way you described things in this paragraph, it sounds like it’s not quite the same as even the traditional understanding that I am having difficulty with.

You are stressing that the Saints and even us are to follow in the co-redemptrix role. You are stressing that we are called to me mediators of Christ.

You are stressing that in the East the Saints are honored ESPECIALLY Jesus’ Holy Mother.

That is my understanding.

That is not quite the same as a lot of the viewpoints in this thread.

 

[Julia_Mae]

We were discussing this in another thread and I want to take take a poll, because I am very concerned.

In fact, my heart is aching right now, because I fear I may have misunderstood Catholicism all along. I see Catholicism as a Christian religion based on Christ’s sacrifice where, his Blessed mother is honored above all the Saints and intercedes for us.

I do not see Catholicism as a Marian religion, through whom everything passes and eventually ends up with Christ.

I am very troubled.

Please be charitable.

I was also a convert. When in doubt read the Catechism. You can put in a word here online and search. I searched for “grace comes.” You can look at all these paragraphs and see what the teaching is.

Grace comes from God, always has and will. How He chooses to direct that to us, that’s His Will. You know, you don’t ever have to say a single Rosary in your whole life as a Catholic. Not to worry.

 

[TrueLight]

I was also a convert. When in doubt read the Catechism. You can put in a word here online and search. I searched for “grace comes.” You can look at all these paragraphs and see what the teaching is.

Grace comes from God, always has and will. How He chooses to direct that to us, that’s His Will. You know, you don’t ever have to say a single Rosary in your whole life as a Catholic. Not to worry.

Thank you Julia.

 

[BertBlyleven]

I’d recommend turning East…

 

[twf]

Based on the way you described things in this paragraph, it sounds like it’s not quite the same as even the traditional understanding that I am having difficulty with.

You are stressing that the Saints and even us are to follow in the co-redemptrix role. You are stressing that we are called to me mediators of Christ.

You are stressing that in the East the Saints are honored ESPECIALLY Jesus’ Holy Mother.

That is my understanding.

That is not quite the same as a lot of the viewpoints in this thread.

TrueLight - actually, if you look at my earlier posts again, I feel that what I expressed is compatible with Alexander’s summary of the Eastern understanding. Deification - that is, sharing in the divine life of the Trinity and truly participating, by our baptismal adoption, in the divine sonship of Christ, is what enables the saints, priests, and even each of us, to share in the work of dispensing grace and mediating salvation. Certainly the Mother of God, in both the West and East, is far greater than other saints, for she, among all creatures, shares in the divine life far more perfectly and completely than the rest of us. In the East, great emphasis is placed on the Incarnation; St. Athanasius said “God became man so that man might become god” (see my catechism quote in earlier post for elaboration) - and the incarnation, the marriage of the divine with humanity, was made possible through the Virgin Mary. At every divine liturgy, our Byzantine rite brothers and sisters pray (as per the Melkite Greek Catholic English translation):

Blessed Theotokos, open the portal of your deep mercy to
us who put our trust in you, so that we may not be brought
to confusion, but through you may be delivered from
adversity, for you are the salvation of the Christian fold.

O Theotokos, since you became a fountain of mercy, count
us worthy of your compassion; look upon a people that has
sinned, show forth your power as you always do. Because
we have put our trust in you, we hail you as once did
Gabriel, the captain of the angels.

In honor and memory of our most highly blessed and
glorious Lady the Theotokos and ever‐virgin Mary,
through whose prayers do You, Lord, receive this sacrifice
upon Your Altar in Heaven.

Let us remember our all‐holy, spotless, most highly blessed
and glorious Lady, the Theotokos and ever‐virgin Mary,
with all the saints, and commend ourselves and one
another and our whole life to Christ God.

Through the prayers of the Theotokos, O Savior,
save us!

(Multiple times in typical liturgy)

Hasten, O Theotokos, to intercede for us, for you have always
protected those who honor you.

O Lord, Creator of the universe, the world offers You as
first‐fruits of the earth the God‐bearing martyrs. Through
their intercessions, protect your Church in permanent
peace, for the sake of the Theotokos, O Most‐Merciful One.

And most importantly…the hymn to the Theotokos, sung every Sunday:

It is truly right to call you blessed, O Theotokos. You
are ever‐blessed and all‐blameless, and the Mother of our
God. Higher in honor than the Cherubim and more
glorious beyond compare than the Seraphim, you gave
birth to God the Word in virginity. You are truly
Theotokos, you do we exalt.

Puts the typical Roman mass to shame in terms of Marian devotion, no? The above are excerpts from a typical Sunday liturgy…not a special Marian feast.

 

[TrueLight]

TrueLight - actually, if you look at my earlier posts again, I feel that what I expressed is compatible with Alexander’s summary of the Eastern understanding. Deification

Yes, I agree. You weren’t included in the “a lot of posters” bit.

Puts the typical Roman mass to shame in terms of Marian devotion, no? The above are excerpts from a typical Sunday liturgy…not a special Marian feast.

What I would be interested in knowing is what is the personal prayer life like? Because when I am thinking of Marian devotion I am mostly thinking of personal devotion because the Mass is very Christ-Centric.

 

[jmj1984]

Co-Redemptrix- Simply means that Mary participated in special way in our salvation though infinitely inferior to Christ’ role, its merely an extension of the idea that we all participate in our salvation by responding to Gods grace and through good works.

Advocatrix- Simply means that Mary is our most powerful interecessor with Jesus Christ and our most powerful intercessor after Jesus Christ, again its merely an extension of the communion of saints and the pre-eminent dignity Mary possesses

Mediatrix- Now I confess this one is still difficult for me. But I was thinking to myself today, Mary was given to us to be our mother and we to be her children, now just as the master of the household gives over the running of the household to his wife would not God likewise give Mary the pre-eminent role in his kingdom? And as the master acts through his wife as regards the household, trusting her to look after it, would not God likewise act through Mary as mediatrix? And Mary being perfectly conformed to the will of God would never do anything that was not God’s will.

Truth be told I’ll have to look into the mediatrix issue some more.

 

[TimothyH]

Puts the typical Roman mass to shame in terms of Marian devotion, no? The above are excerpts from a typical Sunday liturgy…not a special Marian feast.

The prayers cited are genuinely beautiful, certainly able to stand on their own merits without having to tear down anything else in the process.

I fail to see why everything has to be turned into a competition.

-Tim-

 

[twf]

The prayers cited are genuinely beautiful, certainly able to stand on their own merits without having to tear down anything else in the process.

I fail to see why everything has to be turned into a competition.

-Tim-

Timothy - it wasn’t my intention to tear anything down. I am a Latin Catholic and worship and pray in the Roman Rite, not the Byzantine Rite…I was simply responding to a suggestion by other posters that the OP consider the East in light of his/her current difficulties with Marian doctrine. My point was that the East also has the highest regard for Our Lady and that there is certainly not any less emphasis on her essential role in salvation. Sorry for the confusion.

TrueLight:
It would probably be best to discuss personal devotions with an Eastern Catholic - but I do know that many do pray the Rosary (despite the fact that some Eastern Christians see it as a “Latinization”) and that there are many other rich prayers to the Theotokos in the Eastern patrimony. There are many Akathists (liturgical hymns) to the Theotokos, which play a central role in Eastern devotion - the most popular of which has even been indulged by Rome (see legionofmarytidewater.com/prayers/stand.htm). The icon of the Theotokos is an integral part of the iconostasis of any Eastern temple (church) and an typical home altar in an Eastern Catholic home will also include her icon.

You are right that the Mass is very Christocentric, but as the various posters on this thread have been trying to get across, so is all authentic Marian devotion . Like I said in my earlier posts - it isn’t Christ vs Mary…and Our Lady’s necessary and central role in salvation and mediating grace doesn’t make Catholic spiritual life any less Christocentric any more, as per my earlier example, than does the priest’s necessary mediation in dispensing the graces of the sacramental mysteries. It is impossible to foster a close relationship with the Mother of God without encountering her divine son. In terms of what you must accept as authentic Church teaching, I think your quotes from the Catechism are a good summary. Do you still feel that what the rest of us are saying goes beyond that? We’ve elaborated of course, but that doesn’t mean the substance isn’t in the Catechism…perhaps you should investigate the sources referenced in the footnotes.

 

[GaryTaylor]

Right, the teachings/mass are Christ centered. You know what you ought to read to put this in perspective for yourself, Benedict XVI Jesus of Nazareth, in particular pt-II. Here whatever doubt you have will be quickly erased and grounded in Christ and the reality of the now. There is the priority, yesterday, today, … tommorrow is a yet. Now is the time to follow the teachings of Christ as always. Thinking being “the world will pass away but my word never will.”

While you may or may not find the BVM teachings a part to you. The claivoyant future speculation isn’t recommended. The concern is the here and now and living a life in Christs word. Which is why above I continued to impress upon you the importance of the Holy Sacrifice of the mass and the Sacraments. There is nothing more important you can do than participate in the Holy Sacrifice. That is what you do have control over, the now.

The complete teachings of the BVM and the CC are a reality. However, as someone mentioned above you can spend a great deal of time also on just the Saints. So their is also a matter of priority.

Peace

 

[At_Trent]

I hope those who voted "Mary should be honored, but graces do not come through Mary " realize that after being informed of Church teaching on the matter, it is heresy to state that.

I would like to quote from three Popes in recent years. Pope Leo XIII: “From that great treasure of all graces which the Lord has brought, nothing according to the will of God comes to us except through Mary. Consequently, as nobody can approach the Supreme Father except through the Son, so nobody can approach Christ except through Mary.” St. Pius X called Mary “the dispenser of all gifts which Jesus has acquired for us by His death and Blood.” Pope Benedict XVI said: “All gifts which the Author of all good has deigned to communicate to the unhappy progeny of Adam are, according to the loving resolve of His Divine Providence, dispensed by the hands of the Most Holy Virgin.”
therealpresence.org/archives/Mariology/Mariology_045.htm

 

[GaryTaylor]

I hope those who voted "Mary should be honored, but graces do not come through Mary " realize that after being informed of Church teaching on the matter, it is heresy to state that.

Right, and I do believe that is what we were doing to begin with, is to quickly place this in perspective through the correct church teaching. Which btw I do believe is spot-on.

Certainly didn’t want to give anyone the impression we carried around crystal balls and rode brooms. My-O-my, I put my pants on one leg at a time also.

Peace

 

[Bluegoat]

Timothy - it wasn’t my intention to tear anything down. I am a Latin Catholic and worship and pray in the Roman Rite, not the Byzantine Rite…I was simply responding to a suggestion by other posters that the OP consider the East in light of his/her current difficulties with Marian doctrine. My point was that the East also has the highest regard for Our Lady and that there is certainly not any less emphasis on her essential role in salvation. Sorry for the confusion.

Hmmm. I think if you were to go to any Orthodox source, you would find that while they have very high regard for Mary, they are uncomfortable with some of the Catholic doctrines. That is probably what the poster meant who suggested looking East.

 

[TrueLight]

I hope those who voted "Mary should be honored, but graces do not come through Mary " realize that after being informed of Church teaching on the matter, it is heresy to state that.

Until there is an infallible pronouncement that states as Pope Leo did,

“Consequently, as nobody can approach the Supreme Father except through the Son, so nobody can approach Christ except through Mary”

I will stick with what the Catechism says.

 

[prettiefly]

“Devotion to the Blessed Virgin in no way detracts from the Glory of God. Rather, it leads us directly back to that Author of all good, Who has willed her to be so great and so pure”. - Pope Pius Xll

“The Blessed Virgin Mary is called the Star of the Sea. Those who sail the ocean seas are guided to the port they seek by carefully observing the stars. In the same way, Christians are guided to heavenly glory by keeping their eyes on Mary.”- Saint Thomas Aquinas

And, so true:

“The reason why Christ is unknown today is because His Mother is unknown.” - Saint Cardinal John Henry Newman

 

[At_Trent]

I completely assent to the following. Is that enough?

Sure it is.

 

[At_Trent]

Mary is Co-redemptress and Mediatrix of all graces.

Glad we finally all agree now

 

[jmj1984]

I’m going to be honest I have no problem with the terms co-redemptrix and advocatrix as they have support from the fathers and the early church but Mediatrix is not something as far I know that has support either from the fathers or the early church. It may be a pious belief but it is no more than that, that is not to say that Graces cannot come through mary or that Mary cannot distribute graces as she see’s fit but it is say that I do not believe ALL graces come through Mary. Frankly I believe that puts an unecessary barrier between us and Christ, but mayhaps thats just me

As for people going round saying that someone is a heretic because they don’t believe Graces come through Mary, I suggest they re-read the definition of heresy, one can only be heretical if one denies a De Fide doctrine, Mary as Mediatrix is not De Fide.

 

[GaryTaylor]

I’m going to be honest I have no problem with the terms co-redemptrix and advocatrix as they have support from the fathers and the early church but Mediatrix is not something as far I know that has support either from the fathers or the early church. It may be a pious belief but it is no more than that, that is not to say that Graces cannot come through mary or that Mary cannot distribute graces as she see’s fit but it is say that I do not believe ALL graces come through Mary. Frankly I believe that puts an unecessary barrier between us and Christ, but mayhaps thats just me

As for people going round saying that someone is a heretic because they don’t believe Graces come through Mary, I suggest they re-read the definition of heresy, one can only be heretical if one denies a De Fide doctrine, Mary as Mediatrix is not De Fide.

No its not a pious belief, its a church teaching and may very well be the Fifth Marion Dogma. And its the teaching of Lumen Gentium which is “the” Doctrine of the church. All the info has been laid on this thread for this already. However, Should you want to view a Wikipedia article which quickly sums it up…

search.yahoo.com/r/_ylt=A0oG7lMA4FhOx08ALe5XNyoA;_ylu=X3oDMTEydmpkOG5lBHNlYwNzcgRwb3MDMQRjb2xvA2FjMgR2dGlkA0RGRDVfODY-/SIG=11q3oqnkd/EXP=1314476160/**http%3a//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mediatrix

The doctrine has been solemnly defined by a few pope’s, in this case it has just not been raised to the level of Dogma/Infallible.

Peace

 

[TrueLight]

No its not a pious belief, its a church teaching and may very well be the Fifth Marion Dogma. And its the teaching of Lumen Gentium which is “the” Doctrine of the church. All the info has been laid on this thread for this already. However, Should you want to view a Wikipedia article which quickly sums it up…

search.yahoo.com/r/_ylt=A0oG7lMA4FhOx08ALe5XNyoA;_ylu=X3oDMTEydmpkOG5lBHNlYwNzcgRwb3MDMQRjb2xvA2FjMgR2dGlkA0RGRDVfODY-/SIG=11q3oqnkd/EXP=1314476160/**http%3a//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mediatrix

The doctrine has been solemnly defined by a few pope’s, in this case it has just not been raised to the level of Dogma/Infallible.

Peace

Actually all the info has not been laid out on this thread. What I have seen on this thread is varying opinions.

Thanks for posting Lumen Gentium, which I hadn’t read yet. Very beautiful document.

This is what I see:

1. This maternity of Mary in the order of grace began with the consent which she gave in faith at the Annunciation and which she sustained without wavering beneath the cross, and lasts until the eternal fulfillment of all the elect. Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this salvific duty, but by her constant intercession continued to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation.(15*)

The bolded part for me, is the gist. She continues to intercede for us.

Also, an explanation before that paragraph:

1. There is but one Mediator as we know from the words of the apostle, “for there is one God and one mediator of God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself a redemption for all”.(298) The maternal duty of Mary toward men in no wise obscures or diminishes this unique mediation of Christ, but rather shows His power. For all the salvific influence of the Blessed Virgin on men originates, not from some inner necessity, but from the divine pleasure. It flows forth from the superabundance of the merits of Christ, rests on His mediation, depends entirely on it and draws all its power from it. In no way does it impede, but rather does it foster the immediate union of the faithful with Christ.

Now pay attention to this admonition, which I think we all should heed:

1. This most Holy Synod deliberately teaches this Catholic doctrine and at the same time admonishes all the sons of the Church that the cult, especially the liturgical cult, of the Blessed Virgin, be generously fostered, and the practices and exercises of piety, recommended by the magisterium of the Church toward her in the course of centuries be made of great moment, and those decrees, which have been given in the early days regarding the cult of images of Christ, the Blessed Virgin and the saints, be religiously observed.(22*)** But it exhorts theologians and preachers of the divine word to abstain zealously both from all gross exaggerations as well as from petty narrow-mindedness in considering the singular dignity of the Mother of God.**(23*)

This document is titled “Dogmatic Constitution of the Church”. Therefore we must assent to it.

You can post quotes from Popes that support an opinion, but they are not De Fide.

And I agree that one should not go around calling those heretic who do not assent to
what you define as “may very well be the Fifth Marion Dogma”.

It is important, especially for those studying the faith to understand what is De Fide. We are less grounded in the faith and can more easily be led astray. Remember you are not only speaking to lifelong Catholics.

Mark 9:42 “And if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to be thrown into the sea with a large millstone tied around his neck.