All graces flow through Mary

[porthos11]

’http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p123a9p6.htm

967 By her complete adherence to the Father’s will, to his Son’s redemptive work, and to** every prompting of the Holy Spirit**, the Virgin Mary is the Church’s model of faith and charity. Thus she is a “preeminent and . . . wholly unique member of the Church”; indeed, she is the “exemplary realization” (typus)510 of the Church.

968 Her role in relation to the Church and to all humanity goes still further. "In a **wholly singular way **she cooperated by her obedience, faith, hope, and burning charity in the Savior’s work of restoring supernatural life to souls…

For this reason she is a mother to us in the order of grace."511

969 "**This motherhood of Mary in the order of grace continues uninterruptedly **…

…from the consent which she loyally gave at the Annunciation and which she sustained without wavering beneath the cross, until the eternal fulfillment of all the elect…

Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this saving office…

…but by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation . . . . Therefore the **Blessed Virgin is invoked **in the Church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix."512…

IN BRIEF
973 By pronouncing her “fiat” at the Annunciation and giving her consent to the Incarnation, Mary was already collaborating with the whole work her Son was to accomplish…

She is mother wherever he is Savior and head of the Mystical Body…

…974 The Most Blessed Virgin Mary, when the course of her earthly life was completed, was taken up body and soul into the glory of heaven, where she already shares in the glory of her Son’s Resurrection, anticipating the resurrection of all members of his Body.

975 “We believe that the Holy Mother of God, the new Eve, Mother of the Church, continues in heaven to exercise her maternal role on behalf of the members of Christ” (Paul VI, CPG § 15).

In giving birth you kept your virginity; in your Dormition you did not leave the world, O Mother of God, but were joined to the source of Life. You conceived the living God…

…and, by your prayers, will deliver our souls from death.509’

Catholic understanding. Written in stone.

Operative words being: ‘advocate’ and ‘mediatrix’.

Yes, that’s the catechetical formula, and contains nothing of the sort I objected to. This is the Catholic teaching. It has no “dispenser” or “neck” imagery; only solid Catholic teaching.

I therefore do not know what you are all so fired up about.

 

[friardchips]

…she is a mother to us in the order of grace."511…

…969 "**This motherhood of Mary in the order of grace continues uninterruptedly **…

Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this saving office…

These three sentences explain. To follow, you need to know what the word ‘order’ means. And the word ‘continues’. And the word ‘saving’. And the word ‘office’.

1. Think about the word ‘order’ - how can Our Lady be a ‘mother to us in the order of grace’, if ‘order’ does not mean ‘order’, and ‘order of grace’ does not mean *grace imparted *to us through a specific order?!
2. Furthermore, what does ‘motherhood of Mary in the order of grace continues…’ mean, if ‘continues’ is an inactive word; so, evidently, this word ‘continues’, indicates Our Lady has the role of Mother who nurtures us actively in…'the order of grace’ bestowed.
3. What can ‘this saving office’ mean, if the word ‘saving’ is not a verb, and if the word ‘office’, is not a role, a position, through which the ‘saving’ takes place!

 

[cjforJesus]

These three sentences explain. To follow, you need to know what the word ‘order’ means. And the word ‘continues’. And the word ‘saving’. And the word ‘office’.

1. Think about the word ‘order’ - how can Our Lady be a ‘mother to us in the order of grace’, if ‘order’ does not mean ‘order’, and ‘order of grace’ does not mean *grace imparted *to us through a specific order?!
2. Furthermore, what does ‘motherhood of Mary in the order of grace continues…’ mean, if ‘continues’ is an inactive word; so, evidently, this word ‘continues’, indicates Our Lady has the role of Mother who nurtures us actively in…'the order of grace’ bestowed.
3. What can ‘this saving office’ mean, if the word ‘saving’ is not a verb, and if the word ‘office’, is not a role, a position, through which the ‘saving’ takes place!

Friardchips,
I do not believe anyone here is denying Mary’s roll as intercessor and mediator of grace. The problem is claiming she alone can dispense grace. Grace is received through sacraments as well as in the special graces called charisms which are infused directly by the Holy Spirit.

Order of grace does not imply that grace is distributed in a particular heirarchy. It simply means it is just one of her rolls.

All of the body can mediate grace to other members.The communion of saints is one example.The Church triumphant and the Church militant.

 

[friardchips]

Friardchips,
I do not believe anyone here is denying Mary’s roll as intercessor and mediator of grace. The problem is claiming she alone can dispense grace. Grace is received through sacraments as well as in the special graces called charisms which are infused directly by the Holy Spirit.

Order of grace does not imply that grace is distributed in a particular heirarchy. It simply means it is just one of her rolls.

All of the body can mediate grace to other members.The communion of saints is one example.The Church triumphant and the Church militant.

The Holy Spirit is the spouse of Our Lady.

Where does this specific document specify that this is just one of her roles?

The order of grace means there is an order of grace through which grace is imparted to us.

 

[cjforJesus]

The Holy Spirit is the spouse of Our Lady.

Where does this specific document specify that this is just one of her roles?

The order of grace means there is an order of grace through which grace is imparted to us.

no,order of grace simply means in that circumstance. There is no hierarchy in the distribution as far as the Catholic church teaches. All grace comes from God.

 

[friardchips]

no,order of grace simply means in that circumstance. There is no hierarchy in the distribution as far as the Catholic church teaches. All grace comes from God.

Cjfj…your counter-argument is called clutching at straws. Why? Because:

To speak of an order means to be speaking of an order. It is that simple!

If there was no order, hierarchy, which there is, then the word order would not be used. If there was no order, then we would have no dominions of angels. There would be no order in anything Heavenly. Of course, there is order. But it is the gift if an order, out of love.

So, by your reasoning, show me the part in the text where the Church differentiates between “circumstances” of orders of grace? Show me in that text?

No one said grace does not come from our Creator. Similarly, nothing anyone does in Heaven is outside the Will of our Creator. So the issue I see is not Our Lady being in the active role / ‘office’ through which grace passes, but a certain inability from posters here to grasp the almightiness, the immensity, the all powerful omnipotence of our Creator.

One last thing, show me please where the document speaks of Our Lady as an advocate, or a mediatrix.

Show me the part in the document that when speaking of Our Lady in this light, it does not illumine her active/‘continuing’ role as Advocate, with a captial ‘A’, and Mediatrix, with a capital ‘M’.

Show me please?

 

[cjforJesus]

Cjfj…your counter-argument is called clutching at straws. Why? Because:

To speak of an order means to be speaking of an order. It is that simple!

If there was no order, hierarchy, which there is, then the word order would not be used. If there was no order, then we would have no dominions of angels. There would be no order in anything Heavenly. Of course, there is order. But it is the gift if an order, out of love.

So, by your reasoning, show me the part in the text where the Church differentiates between “circumstances” of orders of grace? Show me in that text?

No one said grace does not come from our Creator. Similarly, nothing anyone does in Heaven is outside the Will of our Creator. So the issue I see is not Our Lady being in the active role / ‘office’ through which grace passes, but a certain inability from posters here to grasp the almightiness, the immensity, the all powerful omnipotence of our Creator.

One last thing, show me please where the document speaks of Our Lady as an advocate, or a mediatrix.

Show me the part in the document that when speaking of Our Lady in this light, it does not illumine her active/‘continuing’ role as Advocate, with a captial ‘A’, and Mediatrix, with a capital ‘M’.

Show me please?

Frairdchips others here have informed you that St John Paul 2 had the issue examined by expert theologians. Their conclusion has been noted and as far as any pope goes no dogma is going to be declared where Mary is the only one who dispenses grace.

The capitalizations are because they are TITLEs given her. Queen of the Angels. Blessed Mother,and so forth.All of her titles are capitalized.

There is one mediator between God and man and that is Jesus Christ.This does not preclude lesser mediations,and Mary being Queen of Heaven,is the foremost whereas saints can also be prayed to for intercession.

Order of grace simply means that.Just like the order of the Carmelites.It is a distinction a designated group.

 

[friardchips]

Frairdchips others here have informed you that St John Paul 2 had the issue examined by expert theologians. Their conclusion has been noted and as far as any pope goes no dogma is going to be declared where Mary is the only one who dispenses grace.

The capitalizations are because they are TITLEs given her. Queen of the Angels. Blessed Mother,and so forth.All of her titles are capitalized.

There is one mediator between God and man and that is Jesus Christ.This does not preclude lesser mediations,and Mary being Queen of Heaven,is the foremost whereas saints can also be prayed to for intercession.

Order of grace simply means that.Just like the order of the Carmelites.It is a distinction a designated group.

This is not an answer to my post. You are doing what the Yogaooers do.

Don’t be a Yogaooer.

Please try examining and reading my post again and attempt to understand the sense, because without following reason, you cannot arrive at an answer. Hence, why so many people on this forum find it hard to draw conclusions. I spot diversion tactics so easily when people try these when faced with reasoning that unwittingly picks apart their straw arguments. So there is no point doing this with me.

So once again:

'Cjfj…your counter-argument is called clutching at straws. Why? Because:

To speak of an order means to be speaking of an order. It is that simple!

If there was no order, hierarchy, which there is, then the word order would not be used. If there was no order, then we would have no dominions of angels. There would be no order in anything Heavenly. Of course, there is order. But it is the gift if an order, out of love.

So, by your reasoning, show me the part in the text where the Church differentiates between “circumstances” of orders of grace? Show me in that text?

No one said grace does not come from our Creator. Similarly, nothing anyone does in Heaven is outside the Will of our Creator. So the issue I see is not Our Lady being in the active role / ‘office’ through which grace passes, but a certain inability from posters here to grasp the almightiness, the immensity, the all powerful omnipotence of our Creator.

One last thing, show me please where the document speaks of Our Lady as an advocate, or a mediatrix.

Show me the part in the document that when speaking of Our Lady in this light, it does not illumine her active/‘continuing’ role as Advocate, with a capital ‘A’, and Mediatrix, with a capital ‘M’.

Show me please?’

I look forward to you answering THIS post!

 

[cjforJesus]

This is not an answer to my post. You are doing what the Yogaooers do.

Don’t be a Yogaooer.

Please try examining and reading my post again and attempt to understand the sense, because without following reason, you cannot arrive at an answer. Hence, why so many people on this forum find it hard to draw conclusions. I spot diversion tactics so easily when people try these when faced with reasoning that unwittingly picks apart their straw arguments. So there is no point doing this with me.

So once again:

'Cjfj…your counter-argument is called clutching at straws. Why? Because:

To speak of an order means to be speaking of an order. It is that simple!

If there was no order, hierarchy, which there is, then the word order would not be used. If there was no order, then we would have no dominions of angels. There would be no order in anything Heavenly. Of course, there is order. But it is the gift if an order, out of love.

So, by your reasoning, show me the part in the text where the Church differentiates between “circumstances” of orders of grace? Show me in that text?

No one said grace does not come from our Creator. Similarly, nothing anyone does in Heaven is outside the Will of our Creator. So the issue I see is not Our Lady being in the active role / ‘office’ through which grace passes, but a certain inability from posters here to grasp the almightiness, the immensity, the all powerful omnipotence of our Creator.

One last thing, show me please where the document speaks of Our Lady as an advocate, or a mediatrix.

Show me the part in the document that when speaking of Our Lady in this light, it does not illumine her active/‘continuing’ role as Advocate, with a captial ‘A’, and Mediatrix, with a capital ‘M’.

Show me please?’

I look forward to you answering THIS post!

Friardchips it is your understanding of the context of the word “order” that is flawed.

ONe of the reasons the dogma would not be declared is because many Catholics are confused as to what it means for Mary to be a Mediatrix. Jesus Christ is the only Mediator between God and man but this does not preclude lesser mediators.

You seem to believe that there exists a hierarchy of grace whereby it goes perhaps from Father to Son to Holy Spirit to saints and finally to Mary to decide if the grace can be distributed. I can find absolutely no document that states this.

Mediatrix is a title meaning she can intercede,just as Advocate is.

You,friardchips are also a mediator of grace as is any member of the body of Christ.

I think it best you address your concerns with your spiritual director or perhaps an apologist here on CAF.

God bless and peace to you

Carol

 

[porthos11]

Friardchips it is your understanding of the context of the word order that is flawed.

You seem to believe that there exists a hierarchy of grace whereby it goes perhaps from Father to Son to Holy Spirit to saints and finally to Mary to decide if the grace can be distributed. I can find absolutely no document that states this.

Mediatrix is a title meaning she can intercede,just as Advocate is.

You,friardchips are also a mediator of grace as is any member of the body of Christ.

Further, in Molinistic thought, the “order of grace” does not refer to a hierarchy but the fixed arrangement as to who is going to receive efficacious grace (the predestined) and those who are going to receive only sufficient grace (the reprobate). It’s a vertical order and implies no hierarchy at all. “Order” is also used to refer to an arrangement, or a fixed way of laying things out.

 

[Hunho]

no,order of grace simply means in that circumstance. There is no hierarchy in the distribution as far as the Catholic church teaches. All grace comes from God.

No. “Order of grace” means the ranking of all created beings according to how much grace they have merited and possess in their being. Mary is the first ranked creature in how much grace she has. She ranks before all beings except the Divine Trinity.

 

[cjforJesus]

No. “Order of grace” means the ranking of all created beings according to how much grace they have merited and possess in their being. Mary is the first ranked creature in how much grace she has. She ranks before all beings except the Divine Trinity.

Thank you for the interesting summary.I always thought the order implied in that particular circumstance,as in the circumstance of fullness of grace,and intercession in regards to grace.

Notice though now we have at least 4 different interpretations of the phrase. It is no wonder the theologians who studied this in obedience to St John Paul 2 were reluctant to elaborate or recommend any specific dogma.

 

[godisgood77]

Cjfj…your counter-argument is called clutching at straws. Why? Because:

To speak of an order means to be speaking of an order. It is that simple!

If there was no order, hierarchy, which there is, then the word order would not be used. If there was no order, then we would have no dominions of angels. There would be no order in anything Heavenly. Of course, there is order. But it is the gift if an order, out of love.

So, by your reasoning, show me the part in the text where the Church differentiates between “circumstances” of orders of grace? Show me in that text?

No one said grace does not come from our Creator. Similarly, nothing anyone does in Heaven is outside the Will of our Creator. So the issue I see is not Our Lady being in the active role / ‘office’ through which grace passes, but a certain inability from posters here to grasp the almightiness, the immensity, the all powerful omnipotence of our Creator.

One last thing, show me please where the document speaks of Our Lady as an advocate, or a mediatrix.

Show me the part in the document that when speaking of Our Lady in this light, it does not illumine her active/‘continuing’ role as Advocate, with a captial ‘A’, and Mediatrix, with a capital ‘M’.

Show me please?

Read ‘The Question of Mary’ by Fr Rene Laurentin. It explains it all carries and imprimatur and nihil obstat… There are different interpretations… Mary as Mediatrix of All Graces is not a truth that requires ascent

 

[friardchips]

Friardchips it is your understanding of the context of the word “order” that is flawed.

ONe of the reasons the dogma would not be declared is because many Catholics are confused as to what it means for Mary to be a Mediatrix. Jesus Christ is the only Mediator between God and man but this does not preclude lesser mediators.

You seem to believe that there exists a hierarchy of grace whereby it goes perhaps from Father to Son to Holy Spirit to saints and finally to Mary to decide if the grace can be distributed. I can find absolutely no document that states this.

Mediatrix is a title meaning she can intercede,just as Advocate is.

You,friardchips are also a mediator of grace as is any member of the body of Christ.

I think it best you address your concerns with your spiritual director or perhaps an apologist here on CAF.

God bless and peace to you

Carol

You are mistaken.

Simple reason (as I already said previously in TWO posts):

The document uses a capital M for Mediator and a Capital A for Advcocate and a capital B for Benefactress and etc…when referring to our Lady.

And no, ‘order’ means ‘order’. Please don’t make me spell it out from a dictionary.

Our Lord makes our claim as Son to the Father. Our Lady for us to her Son.

If you don’t wish to acknowledge Church teaching then don’t but please stop announcing that what is Church teaching is not Church teaching. If you don’t want to comply with Church teaching just admit that you don’t and move on.

 

[friardchips]

Read ‘The Question of Mary’ by Fr Rene Laurentin. It explains it all carries and imprimatur and nihil obstat… There are different interpretations… Mary as Mediatrix of All Graces is not a truth that requires ascent

Read the Vatican document and follow the sound sense of it.

 

[friardchips]

No. “Order of grace” means the ranking of all created beings according to how much grace they have merited and possess in their being. Mary is the first ranked creature in how much grace she has. She ranks before all beings except the Divine Trinity.

You are all reading the document incorrectly, if you have read it, by snatching little fragments only of the text, which is the same that fundamentalist protestants who believe in sola scriptura do with Bible excerpts, kpeople::whacky: whilst forgetting that the document also has to be a unified whole and also reflect all Church and Scripture teaching in the whole of the history of Christianity.

If you take the words: ‘continuing’ (notice this active word). And place it in context with the words ‘saving office’, and the titles used later on, of Advocate and Mediatrix and Benefactress…

‘…she is a mother to us in the order of grace."511…’

…969 "‘This motherhood of Mary in the order of grace continues uninterruptedly …’

'Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this saving office… ’

• we can then notice continuity and therefore grasp the bigger picture. So again…

*'These three sentences explain. To follow, you need to know what the word ‘order’ means. And the word ‘continues’. And the word ‘saving’. And the word ‘office’. *

*1. Think about the word ‘order’ - how can Our Lady be a ‘mother to us in the order of grace’, if ‘order’ does not mean ‘order’, and ‘order of grace’ does not mean grace imparted to us through a specific order?!

1. Furthermore, what does ‘motherhood of Mary in the order of grace continues…’ mean, if ‘continues’ is an inactive word; so, evidently, this word ‘continues’, indicates Our Lady has the role of Mother who nurtures us actively in…‘the order of grace’ bestowed.
2. What can ‘this saving office’ mean, if the word ‘saving’ is not a verb, and if the word ‘office’, is not a role, a position, through which the ‘saving’ takes place!’*

 

[cjforJesus]

You are all reading the document incorrectly, if you have read it, by snatching little fragments only of the text, which is the same that fundamentalist protestants who believe in sola scriptura do with Bible excerpts, kpeople::whacky: whilst forgetting that the document also has to be a unified whole and also reflect all Church and Scripture teaching in the whole of the history of Christianity.

If you take the words: ‘continuing’ (notice this active word). And place it in context with the words ‘saving office’, and the titles used later on, of Advocate and Mediatrix and Benefactress…

‘…she is a mother to us in the order of grace."511…’

…969 "‘This motherhood of Mary in the order of grace continues uninterruptedly …’

'Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this saving office… ’

• we can then notice continuity and therefore grasp the bigger picture. So again…

*'These three sentences explain. To follow, you need to know what the word ‘order’ means. And the word ‘continues’. And the word ‘saving’. And the word ‘office’. *

*1. Think about the word ‘order’ - how can Our Lady be a ‘mother to us in the order of grace’, if ‘order’ does not mean ‘order’, and ‘order of grace’ does not mean grace imparted to us through a specific order?!

1. Furthermore, what does ‘motherhood of Mary in the order of grace continues…’ mean, if ‘continues’ is an inactive word; so, evidently, this word ‘continues’, indicates Our Lady has the role of Mother who nurtures us actively in…‘the order of grace’ bestowed.
2. What can ‘this saving office’ mean, if the word ‘saving’ is not a verb, if the word ‘office’, is not a role, a position, through which the ‘saving’ takes place!’*

The Catechism is simply stating that Mary can intercede for us.
That being said there is a growing group who sincerely wish to have a dogma declared. In addition ,many believe a Marian apparition from the Netherlands that claims once the dogma is declared then Mary will bring peace to the world.

Neither St John Paul 2 nor Pope emeritus Benedict XVI thought in necessary to declare a new dogma mostly because the wording is ambiguous and Mary is already understood under the titles Mediatrix and Advocate. Millions of Catholics seek her intercession and prayers every day. Millions more pray her rosary which always asks for her prayers.

I still humbly recommend you address your concerns to your spiritual director or ask an apologist.

 

[friardchips]

The Catechism is simply stating that Mary can intercede for us.
That being said there is a growing group who sincerely wish to have a dogma declared. In addition ,many believe a Marian apparition from the Netherlands that claims once the dogma is declared then Mary will bring peace to the world.

Neither St John Paul 2 nor Pope emeritus Benedict XVI thought in necessary to declare a new dogma mostly because the wording is ambiguous and Mary is already understood under the titles Mediatrix and Advocate. Millions of Catholics seek her intercession and prayers every day. Millions more pray her rosary which always asks for her prayers.

I still humbly recommend you address your concerns to your spiritual director or ask an apologist.

My previous posts apply.

Understanding certain words will help: grace; office; saving office; role; motherhood; Advocate; Mediatrix etc…

Then read these words as one unified whole to give the sense, the true meaning.

Also, look up what it means in grammar when a title is given a capital letter i.e:- I could say: “I am applying for the position of Nurse”. I cannot say “I am Nurse”. I could say “I am A nurse”. Or in a specific department somewhere, if I was the only one, I could say: “I am the Nurse”. Or “I am Nurse here”.

This document uses these title with capitals in the wider perspective of ALL THINGS. Our Lady’s ‘saving office’, ‘Grace’, ‘Role’, ‘Motherhood’; as ‘Advocate’, ‘Mediatrix’, ‘Benefactress’.

 

[JM3]

The Catechism is simply stating that Mary can intercede for us.

ewtn.com/faith/teachings/marya4.htm

We notice that Vatican II did not add the words “of all graces.” However, as many papal texts point out, Mary’s role in dispensation flows logically from her role in acquiring all graces. Further, the Council itself added a note on the above passage, in which it refers us to the texts of Leo XIII, Adiutricem populi, St. Pius X, Ad diem illum, Pius XI, Miserentissimus Redemptor, and Pius XII, Radiomessage to Fatima.

Leo XIII, in the text referred to, spoke of her, as we saw above, as having “practically limitless power.” St. Pius X said she was the "dispensatrix of all the gifts, and is the “neck” connecting the Head of the Mystical Body to the Members. But all power flows through the neck. Pius XII said “Her kingdom is as vast as that of her Son and God, since nothing is excluded from her dominion.” These and many other texts speak in varied ways of Mary as Mediatrix of all graces, so often that the teaching has become infallible.

 

[cjforJesus]

ewtn.com/faith/teachings/marya4.htm

The question here concerns a specific dogma where it is to be declared that Mary is the only Mediatrix of all grace. The catechism no where states that grace comes from Mary alone.All grace comes from God.

Friardchips is attempting to claim that it is part of the deposit of faith to believe that the only one who can mediate and dispense grace is Mary.That is not a Catholic belief.

Mary intercedes for us and mediates grace,yet ALL members of the body can mediate grace to one another.

Most of the sources quoted by Friardchips are well over a hundred years,and subsequent popes see the teaching as very problematic and confusing , not only for Catholics but other Christians as well.

Here is an interesting article on the mediation of grace and how all members can mediate grace to one another:

catholic.com/blog/tim-staples/one-mediator-between-god-and-men