All have sinned.. including Mary.

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justasking4 said:
Is not Mary part of the woman’s seed also since she to is born of human parents as all sinners are?
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So what you’re saying is that we are ALL the ‘woman’s seed’ referred to in Genesis? That every single human (all born to human parents) has enmity with Satan just as Jesus does? That we all crush Satan’s head? Don’t think so :nope: - that privilege and power belongs to two people only - Jesus, THE seed, and Mary, THE woman.

Furthermore, you realise you’re saying that Eve herself, the woman who brought original sin into the world fer crying out loud, is the Woman of Genesis and thus personally had enmity with Satan? :whacky: :hypno: :rotfl:
 
LilyM;3563577]So what you’re saying is that we are ALL the ‘woman’s seed’ referred to in Genesis? That every single human (all born to human parents) has enmity with Satan just as Jesus does? That we all crush Satan’s head? Don’t think so :nope: - that privilege and power belongs to two people only - Jesus, THE seed, and Mary, THE woman.
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We know Jesus was without sin because of His special birth and His nature. What we don’t see is any evidence in Scripture that Mary was some kind of exception. Its being asserted without any proof.
Furthermore, you realise you’re saying that Eve herself, the woman who brought original sin into the world fer crying out loud, is the Woman of Genesis and thus personally had enmity with Satan? :whacky: :hypno: :rotfl:
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Lets look at passage— Genesis 3:14-15 specifically what the Lord says to the serpent as the woman is also included;
15 And I will put enmityBetween you and the woman,And between your seed and her seed;He shall bruise you on the head,And you shall bruise him on the heel.”

No doubt there was enmity between Satan and Eve.
 
justasking4 said:
We know Jesus was without sin because of His special birth and His nature. What we don’t see is any evidence in Scripture that Mary was some kind of exception. Its being asserted without any proof.

Lets look at passage— Genesis 3:14-15 specifically what the Lord says to the serpent as the woman is also included;
15 And I will put enmityBetween you and the woman,And between your seed and her seed;He shall bruise you on the head,And you shall bruise him on the heel.”

No doubt there was enmity between Satan and Eve.
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For one your passage is mistranslated, a lot of modern bibles are unfortunately. Gen. 3, 15 should read:

inimicitias ponam inter te et mulierem et semen tuum et semen illius ipsa conteret caput tuum et tu insidiaberis calcaneo eius [GEN III:15., Latin Vulgate]

Translating to English

I will put enmities between thee and the woman, and thy seed and her seed: **she **shall crush thy head, and thou shalt lie in wait for her heel. [GEN 3:15., DRB]


Note - “She shall crush”… Ipsa, the woman; so divers of the fathers read this place, conformably to the Latin: others read it ipsum, viz., the seed. The sense is the same: for it is by her seed, Jesus Christ, that the woman crushes the serpent’s head.

To be honest this passage is directly connected to Apoc. Chapter twelve which in turn is directly connected to Gen. 1, 3-5, for during this time Apoc. Chapter 12 took place.
 
justasking4 said:
We know Jesus was without sin because of His special birth and His nature. What we don’t see is any evidence in Scripture that Mary was some kind of exception. Its being asserted without any proof.

Lets look at passage— Genesis 3:14-15 specifically what the Lord says to the serpent as the woman is also included;
15 And I will put enmityBetween you and the woman,And between your seed and her seed;He shall bruise you on the head,And you shall bruise him on the heel.”

No doubt there was enmity between Satan and Eve.
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She had LITERALLY just that very day fulfilled Satan’s dearest wish and done his bidding by eating the apple, just that very day brought sin upon all mankind - of course there wasn’t enmity between Satan and Eve. She was his servant at the time the prophecy was made as completely as anyone could be, and there’s no indication that she changed her ways afterwards.
 
Gara3987 said:
For one your passage is mistranslated, a lot of modern bibles are unfortunately. Gen. 3, 15 should read:

inimicitias ponam inter te et mulierem et semen tuum et semen illius ipsa conteret caput tuum et tu insidiaberis calcaneo eius [GEN III:15., Latin Vulgate]

Translating to English

I will put enmities between thee and the woman, and thy seed and her seed: **she **shall crush thy head, and thou shalt lie in wait for her heel. [GEN 3:15., DRB]

http://my.roman.catholic.googlepages.com/Mary_1.jpg
Note - “She shall crush”… Ipsa, the woman; so divers of the fathers read this place, conformably to the Latin: others read it ipsum, viz., the seed. The sense is the same: for it is by her seed, Jesus Christ, that the woman crushes the serpent’s head.

To be honest this passage is directly connected to Apoc. Chapter twelve which in turn is directly connected to Gen. 1, 3-5, for during this time Apoc. Chapter 12 took place.
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Uh-uh. It’s in fact the ‘she’ translation that was wrong initially (as in the Latin, I believe). The modern-day translations are agreed in using ‘HE will crush your head’ because the error was discovered, in fact the Douai is the ONLY English translation that DOES use ‘she’.
 
I am just amazed reading these posts. I just have one question for the person who wishes to dispute the Catholic Church…what Bible are you reading and who do you think (with the Holy Spirit) determined it? And, how can one argue with one who has so little knowledge of the early Church fathers, the desert Fathers, and for that matter…what took place the first 300 years after Jesus’ resurrection? If one does not care to learn that, then that person just doesn’t want to learn the Truth.
 
Here is another way of looking at it, this is directly from Ven. Mary of Agreda.
“If we admit, as we are indeed forced to admit, that the most pure Mary was the Spouse of the blessed Trinity, and Mother of the second Person, and that She was adorned and prepared for these dignities by the omnipotent God, who is infinite and rich without measure or limit: what adornments, what preparation, what jewels must those be with which He fitted Her out in order that She might be a worthy Spouse and Mother? Would He reserve any of his jewels in his treasury? Would He withhold any grace that could beautify and make Her precious? Would He permit Her to be deformed, ill-favored, blemished in any way or for the least instant? Would He be sparing and niggardly with his Mother and Spouse, when He so prodigiously lavishes the treasures of the Divinity upon other souls, who, in comparison, with Her, are less than servants and slaves of his house? Let all confess with the Lord Himself, that She alone is the chosen One (Cant. 6, 8) and the perfect One, whom the rest must recognize, proclaim and magnify as the immaculate and most happy among women, of whom in wonder and with joy ful praise they ask: Who is She that comes forth like the morning, beautiful as the moon (Cant. 6, 9), and terrible as the serried armies? This is the most holy Mary, the only Spouse and Mother of the Almighty, who descends to the world adorned and prepared as the Bride of the blessed Trinity for her Spouse and her Son. This coming and entrance was made memorable by such great gifts of the Divinity, that the splendor of them made Her more agreeable than the sunrise, more beautiful than the moon, more exquisite and admirable than the sun, and without equal among things created; She came more valiant and powerful than the heavenly hosts of saints and angels. She descended adorned and prepared by God, who gave Her all that He desired, and who desired to give Her all that He could, and who could give all that is not the essentially Divine, namely, all that is most approximate to the Divinity and farthest removed from any blemish of a creature. Entire and most perfect was this adornment, so that all defect was excluded, which would not have been the case, if in any regard She failed in grace and innocence. Without this the treasures of grace would not suffice to make Her so beautiful, since they would adorn but a distorted visage, a nature infected with sin, or a garment soiled and be smirched by guilt. Forever there would have been a stain, a shadow and blot of guilt, which no diligence on her part could obliterate. All this was unbefitting the Mother and Spouse of God, and if it was unbefitting Her, it was also unbefitting Himself ; for He would have failed to adorn and prepare Her, with the love of a Spouse, or the solicitude of a Son, if, having in his possession most rich and precious vestments, He would have clothed his Mother and Spouse, and Himself, in soiled and worn-out garments.”
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This is what Saint John the Apostle was speaking of when he said “And I John saw the holy city, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.” [Apoc. 21, 2]
 
LilyM said:
Uh-uh. It’s in fact the ‘she’ translation that was wrong initially (as in the Latin, I believe). The modern-day translations are agreed in using ‘HE will crush your head’ because the error was discovered, in fact the Douai is the ONLY English translation that DOES use ‘she’.
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To be honest “He” does not make any sense at all, for the one that will crush Lucifer’s head is the blessed mother. This was the threat God made to Lucifer due to his Arrogance for he (Lucifer) was angered at the fact that he an angle would be lower than a mere human the Mother of the Word. Thus Lucifer made a threat to destroy the Blessed Mother and the Word (Christ), you can refer to Apocalypse Chapter twelve. This took place on the day where light was created [Gen. 1, 3-5] (and yet it also took place through out the years through Christ’s first coming; it was something that Lucifer was trying to prevent) the literal sense of these passages are easy to understand, God created light; day and night. The Mystical sense, God Created the Angelic form, Light and day would be the Angels, darkness and night is referring to the fallen angels.

Thus “And a great sign appeared in heaven: A woman clothed with the sun(1), and* the moon under her feet*(2), and on her head a crown of twelve stars(3)”

(1) Represents that Christ Himself is protecting His Mother, with the Angels.
(2) Represents the fallen angels beneath Her feet, who will never proceed passed Her feet.
(3) The Crown of twelve stars are the twelve Virtues.

This threat was made to Lucifer more than once, Gen. 3, 15 was a reminder due to Lucifer thinking that he had seduced the Mother of the Word, basically he thought that Eve was the Mother and Adam was Christ, the creation of man was concealed from the devil, Adam was created at age 33, the age Our Lord was crucified. Eve looked exactly like the image of the Blessed Mother when God show the Angels who was to be Mother of The Word.
Code: 
This information came from Ven Mary of Agreda, who passed away 341 years ago.  She was ordered by God to write down the revelations that He (the Holy Trinity) and the Blessed Mother where to show her.  The books that she wrote were titled Cuidad de Dios., The Mystical City of God.  Ven Mary Ageda's Body is currently in Spain in an open casket, her Body has Remained Incorrupt for more than 340 years.
 
Gara3987 said:
To be honest “He” does not make any sense at all, for the one that will crush Lucifer’s head is the blessed mother. This was the threat God made to Lucifer due to his Arrogance for he (Lucifer) was angered at the fact that he an angle would be lower than a mere human the Mother of the Word. Thus Lucifer made a threat to destroy the Blessed Mother and the Word (Christ), you can refer to Apocalypse Chapter twelve. This took place on the day where light was created [Gen. 1, 3-5] (and yet it also took place through out the years through Christ’s first coming; it was something that Lucifer was trying to prevent) the literal sense of these passages are easy to understand, God created light; day and night. The Mystical sense, God Created the Angelic form, Light and day would be the Angels, darkness and night is referring to the fallen angels.

Thus “And a great sign appeared in heaven: A woman clothed with the sun(1), and* the moon under her feet*(2), and on her head a crown of twelve stars(3)”

(1) Represents that Christ Himself is protecting His Mother, with the Angels.
(2) Represents the fallen angels beneath Her feet, who will never proceed passed Her feet.
(3) The Crown of twelve stars are the twelve Virtues.

This threat was made to Lucifer more than once, Gen. 3, 15 was a reminder due to Lucifer thinking that he had seduced the Mother of the Word, basically he thought that Eve was the Mother and Adam was Christ, the creation of man was concealed from the devil, Adam was created at age 33, the age Our Lord was crucified. Eve looked exactly like the image of the Blessed Mother when God show the Angels who was to be Mother of The Word.
Code: 
This information came from Ven Mary of Agreda, who passed away 341 years ago.  She was ordered by God to write down the revelations that He (the Holy Trinity) and the Blessed Mother where to show her.  The books that she wrote were titled Cuidad de Dios., The Mystical City of God.  Ven Mary Ageda's Body is currently in Spain in an open casket, her Body has Remained Incorrupt for more than 340 years.
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Unless it’s dogma, doctrine or discipline it’s not ‘information’ at all, rather ‘opinion’, or ‘private’ (non-binding) revelation, regardless of the sanctity of Ven. Mary of Agreda.

Beside which there’s no sense in which it is more logical to say that it’s Mary rather than Christ who will crush Satan’s head. Christ could easily be the one who aroused Satan to arrogance and revolt against the idea of serving one (Christ) who was True Man as well as True God. It need not be Mary who did so.
 
justasking4 said:
Just because something has been used serveral times does not make it a circular argument. 🤷
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I agree. We have several circular arguments. 😉

How many times is it now that you’ve employed the catch phrase “speculations of men”? I’ve lost count. :hmmm:

Pax vobiscum
Good Fella :cool:
 
Good_Fella said:
Originally Posted by justasking4
Just because something has been used serveral times does not make it a circular argument.

Good Fella
I agree. We have several circular arguments. 😉

How many times is it now that you’ve employed the catch phrase “speculations of men”? I’ve lost count. :hmmm:

Pax vobiscum
Good Fella :cool:
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Even if something is repeated that still would not make it a circular argument. The reason i have repeated this and will continue to do so is because it has never been refuted. Anything outside the scriptures and not grounded in the scriptures would be the speculations of men. 👍
 
planten said:
**
The christian faith is a complete mystery. The original sin and all prophets are sinners. But the christians want to keep Jesus out of the list of the sinners. Why?. They say that wages of sin are death. Jesus died too. So he must have been a sinner. He died. That was due to some sin, or not?.

The church wangles the matter here and there. We Muslims tell them that no man is a born sinner. The prophets are not sinners at all, Jesus and all. The church loves to make the prophets sinners. But they do not want that jesus should be a sinner even though he is a man and a prophet too. Why is that a special rule (loophole) for Jesus only. Let him be a sinner too.

That is why he died too. And then he got up from the dead. The only person who did that. But after walking about and going to Galilee, he never said to any one that he had died and got up again. There is no such word in the bible. Jesus is not saying any such thing. But the christians are preaching that line.

As far as Muslims are concerned, no man is a born sinner. Prophets are not sinners. (The bad examples of some prophets in the bible OT is totally wrong, Nothing like that is mentioned in the Quran.) Mary was also not sinner. Not at all. But who believes us !!**
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Like you say, who believes you…definately not us catholics…You will never be able to understand what the bible teaches with bad intentions in your heart to critisize what you dont understand…If u understand what Catholic faith teaches, then you will realise that Islam is very deceiving…But I will never stop praying for all muslims
 
justasking4 said:
Even if something is repeated that still would not make it a circular argument. The reason i have repeated this and will continue to do so is because it has never been refuted.

Anything outside the scriptures and not grounded in the scriptures would be the speculations of men. 👍
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That’s just it. You have been refuted. And after you are, you start again from the beginning. :juggle:

Is that why you Protestants can’t even agree with each other? 🤷

Pax vobiscum
Good Fella :cool:
 
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