All have sinned.. including Mary.

[LilyM]

yes, how can they avoind sin when they do not understand that they should?

How can they HAVE any personal sin when they don’t understand on any level that what they are doing is in fact wrong? I can’t believe you’d think they are sinners!

If your six-month old baby breaks your priceless vase you don’t punish them for it, do you? You don’t even think of them as having done any wrong, do you? I sincerely hope not, because you’d be incredibly unnatural.

You might wince at the damage, but you say to yourself ‘s/he is just a baby, s/he didn’t know’ and leave it at that, no?

God doesn’t have mercy upon the ignorant, he recognises that they knew no better and, I am sure, as any parent would, doesn’t count their behaviour as an offence at all.

 

[Cleopas]

Jesus was baptisted.

Yes, but Mary was not born of a virgin.

She was not the only begotten daughter of God. She was born of Adam. Like all born of Adam, she was born in sin.

If Mary had of been born sinless, and/or lived sinless then she would have been inherently righteous. That would contradict the fact that Jesus is “the Righteous” one – an exclusive designation. He is the only inherently righteous one. That’s the whole point of the Incarnation.

To teach otherwise diminishes and negates the person of Christ and His unique status as the sinless human.

 

[Cleopas]

God doesn’t have mercy upon the ignorant, he recognises that they knew no better and, I am sure, as any parent would, doesn’t count their behaviour as an offence at all.

Right! He doesn’t impute it (or count it as an offense, as you say) to them. He doesn’t charge it against them. But it is still, technically, sin in that it is a violation of His law, and something inherently not right or in accord with His perfect nature.

Indeed, what mercy!

 

[planten]

Yes, but Mary was not born of a virgin.

She was not the only begotten daughter of God. She was born of Adam. Like all born of Adam, she was born in sin.

If Mary had of been born sinless, and/or lived sinless then she would have been inherently righteous. That would contradict the fact that Jesus is “the Righteous” one – an exclusive designation. He is the only inherently righteous one. That’s the whole point of the Incarnation.

To teach otherwise diminishes and negates the person of Christ and His unique status as the sinless human.

**** The story of the original sin is wrong. No man (child) is born sinful. Mary was sinless. How could Jesus be born from a sinful woman? All these theories of the church seem to be wrong. I have no time to readbible but it would interest me to read anything of that kind directly from the bible NT/OT that:

1. Adam sinned. 2. All mankind is sinful.
   All I know is : To err is human, forgiveness is divine.
   Adammade mistake. he forgot. There is no blame on Adam when he repented and asked forgiveness of the Lord. There is a difference between making a mistake and sin. The church cannot see such simple things. What to say of the more complicated matters. Do the Jews also believe that every person born in the world is a sinner? If they do not have such belief then it is a cooked up story of the church for its own benefit.

Mary was quite sinless. In Islam we believe that even the Devil (Al-Shaitan) does not come near her and does not tempt her. She is so pious.

Then there is a story of Jesus taking away the sins. That is why the church needs to make every one a sinner. The other day I read some where that Abraham was a sinner. There is no such thing in Islam.

According to church, the women are to bear children in pain and the man was to toil inhardship for his earnings. Snake is to eat the dust. That was a punishment for them. Have they been forgiven.?? Not at all. No one is forgiven and jesus did not take away any ones sins. the women still have the pains at child birth. The man is still laboring. There has been no change.

There is no original sin.Also, God does not punish a person (Jesus) for the crimes of others. Why He would do that? That would be unjustified. The answer to mistakes is simple and can be forgiven. The answer to sins is repentence. That is what John baptist said and that is what Jesus taught. So, if it is necessary for a sinner to repent then why should Jesus suffer on the cross? We Muslims believe in salvation through repentence.

It is also bad of the church to blame the woman for the crime i.e. original sin. The Quran does not blame the woman. See the difference? Instead of condemning all the women for the cause of the original sin, the Quran tells that it was a simple forgetful mistake by both man and woman.

If Mary was sinful then Jesus was the son of sinful lady. How could he be any good one when born out of a woman.??****

 

[scott1228]

I can’ t even read these anymore.

It is one thing to say that I don’t understand how this doctrine could be true, given my limited understanding of koine Greek, etc.

It is quite another thing to say that you know that another person sinned when there is no evidence for it.

Here is the Good News: As a faithful mother, the Virgin Mary would much rather hear her good name sullied than that of her Son.

Here is the Bad News: As a good Son, the Lord feels the same way.

 

[swariffin]

Dear everyone,

Off course every body may take the book of Genesis differently. That is no problem. I still respect Planten’s opinion although I disagree with him.

In the beginning of Genesis 2, we read that human lived in the Paradise, and in Genesis 3, human committed the first sin and expelled from Paradise. What is Paradise mean anyway? The RCC as well as the Orthodox believe that Paradise is “The condition within God’s will and love”. So, as human were expelled from the Paradise (because of sin), human no longer live within God’s will and love. That is the meaning of Original Sin. We define the original sin as “Outside the will and love of God”. As all humans after Adam and Eve were born outside Paradise, then we call that all human inherit the Original Sin, because of Adam. Due to the sin, the gap between human and God became existed that no human could ever come to God by his/her own power.

What about Mary?. In Genesis 3:15, as soon as human fell into sin, God made His prophecy, i.e His plan for salvation of human. God laid out His plan “You (the serpent/devil) and this woman will hate each other; your decendants and hers will always be enemies. One of hers will strike you on the head, and you will strike him (masculin form) on the heel”.

Who is the decendent of the woman strikes the devil in the head (i.e. defeating the devil), while being striken on the heal? The answer according to Christianity is Jesus. Jesus never fell into satan’s temptation, and the became and always become the winner. Jesus overcame death by rising from the dead. At the same time, Jesus also suffered severely and died on the cross. We believe that Jesus was the fulfillment of God’s prophecy. So, Jesus was and is Within God’s plan, and Within God’s will and love. Back to the definition of the Original sin, Jesus offcourse without the original sin.

Jesus, in his form as a man, must be borne by a female human. Human babies may drink much cow milk. But, there was no case ever that a human baby is born by a cow. So, the plan to have a human female is also Within God’s plan, and Within God’s will and love. In this case, that is why we believe that Mary, the female human who bears Jesus is within God’s will and love. Back to the definition of the original sin, that is why we believe that Mary was born **without the original sin **(the immaculate conception). The angel of Gabriel confirmed that Mary is Full of Grace. In the original language, the word is “Kecharitomene” which means fullness to the fullest condition.

What about the sinning? Sin means “turning away from God and His love”. The first human turned away from God by disobeying God’s word, and committed the first sin. Did Mary ever turned away from God? Eventhough she did not understand she said “Let it be done according to your word” to the angel of Gabriel, the same thing as Jesus said in the Gethzemane.

 

[elvisman]

The Vatican wants you to believe that sin is just a stain and that this stain can be washed away with water. That’s not what we read in the Bible. The sin we received from Adam is judgment of condemnation. That means we all go to hell by default unless we are born-again spiritually.

Rom 5:18
Therefore as by the offence of one [judgment came] upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one [the free gift came] upon all men unto justification of life.

Therefore… ALL have sinned including Mary.

Luk 1:46
And Mary said, My soul doth magnify the Lord,

Luk 1:47
And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.

Ummmm . . . what could POSSIBLY be the motive for the “Vatican” to teach that? (By the way - the “Vatican” a place - NOT an authority).
As for what the Catholic church teaches about baptism - it’s STRAIGHT from Scripture, my friend:
"This prefigured baptism, which saves you now. It is not a removal of dirt from the body but an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, with angels, authorities, and powers subject to him." (1 Peter 3:21-22)

---

**Acts 2:38 CLEARLY states:
"Peter (said) to them, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the holy Spirit."

"Rise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on his name" (Acts 22:16)

You use Rom 5:18 to “prove” that Mary sinned.
You STILL haven’t answered my question about"
The severly retarded.
Infants.
Toddlers.
They CAN’T sin, so you don’t have a leg to stand on.

**

 

[elvisman]

Yet another definition of a word that means something different to Protestants and Catholics.

What word? Sin?

yes.

Hmmmm . . .

yes, how can they avoind sin when they do not understand that they should?

I was ALMOST going to respond to this but then I realized that you CAN’T be serious.

yes. Jacob and Esau fought even in the womb.

Again, see my response above . . .

Toddlers are notorious for not obeying and being difficult… ever heard of the terrible twos?

Ummm . . . show me - IN the Bible - where toddlers commit sins. I’ll make it easier for you - show me the writings of ANY reputable Protestant evangelist that support your ridiculous claim.

yes they ALL sinned. They all have done things that are against God. That they do not understand does not mean that God somehow changes and likes their sin… it does mean that God is merciful and does not condemn them to hell for it. It does not cease to be sin just because God is merciful.

**Apparently, you don’t understand WHAT sin is. Sin is a choice of the will to do wrong. **

You’re telling me that an unborn fetus can sin? This is pure hogwash that I believe you are stating JUST to be argumentative. I say this because I don’t believe that ANYbody could be that ignorant.

On those grounds, you would have to be understanding of abortion then. If a woman’s fetus is sinful, then why NOT kill him/her? Even the most rabid abortionist knows that babies CAN’T do wrong.

Question:
Do you believe in infant baptism?

 

[Cleopas]

Apparently, you don’t understand WHAT sin is. Sin is a choice of the will to do wrong.

I answered your query in my reply. Scripture teaches that sin is violation of God’s law, and that all unrighteousness (anything not right or opposed to the nature of God) is sin.

I think the difference we are having here is one of the accounting or imputing of sin. Sin is only imputed where there is knowledge of right and wrong. Nevertheless, a thing that is wrong, is still wrong even if the individual is not aware of that. Thus the thing is in and of itself sinful in such a setting.

Do you believe in infant baptism?

No.

 

[MrS]

FIRST] Romans 3:23 is taken out of context ( )

Rom 3:23
For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

Paul was referring to Psalm 14 (great scholar that he was), and those who were learning from Romans knew this. A reading of that Psalm tells about the “bad guys” and what they are doing against God, and how God looks down on them, sees that THEY are corrupt, and there is none that do good, no not one.

Then God referes to them and their transgressions against ANOTHER group of people… “…my people”

SECOND]

Jesus was a Jew because His Mother was a Jew… that is just the way things were… and his “person” is from her… fully.

If Mary had Original Sin, Jesus would also have had to have that sin too…that is just the way things were.

THIRD]

Mary required a Savior, as she declared. Since that Savior is God, then salvation is not limited to our time frame. It occured prior to her conception. No argument there from me.

“…full of Grace…” came from the mouth of an angel on “his” knees. Regardless of which translation you prefer (full of grace, or blessed, or hightly favored one…), the Greek is quite clear and explicit…

Luke (a doctor and scholar who I would think knew his Greek) uses the perfect past participle… Mary is recognized by that angel as being is a state of continuing Full Of Grace that was perfect in the past, and will continue to the future.

Not Hail, Mary

But Hail, Full of Grace…God’s greatest masterpiece among us all.

.

catholic.com/thisrock/2001/0102sbs.asp

 

[MrS]

Do you believe in infant baptism?

No.

Why not… is it a Scripural thing (forbidden, or abrogated from the rite of Circumcision?

If one is old enough, I would think one should repent first and then be baptised.

But surly the Centurion followed Christ’s command, and baptized his whole household (servants, kids, etc…not to exclude infants).

And the Great Commission is to go forth and teach all “ethnae” (spell?)in the Greek… means families. It does not even hint at teaching each individual adult before the act of Trinitarian Baptism.

.

 

[peary]

yes they ALL sinned. They all have done things that are against God. That they do not understand does not mean that God somehow changes and likes their sin… it does mean that God is merciful and does not condemn them to hell for it. It does not cease to be sin just because God is merciful.

Who are ‘they’?
I think you need to go back and re-read your Bible and study Church teaching on God as KING AND JUST JUDGE. He is merciful, yes, but don’t substitute His Mercy for His justice.

 

[justinthemartyr]

Roman Catholics… Why don’t you believe ALL (including Mary) have sinned? God said it… shouldn’t that be final?

Rom 3:23
For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

Rom 5:12
Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Check this out, we will use your reasoning for God saying “ALL”.

God said…

Genesis 6:13
So God said to Noah, "I am going to put an end to ALL people, for the earth is filled with violence because of them. I am surely going to destroy both them and the earth.

I thought GOD SAID that he was going to kill ALL people on the earth? Yet Noah and his family(8 in all) were not killed.

You see, this is the type of slander that we have to put up with as catholics. They make silly statements and charges that have no back up either IN scripture, or outside of scripture.

 

[justinthemartyr]

Genesis 6:17
I am going to bring floodwaters on the earth to destroy all life under the heavens, every creature that has the breath of life in it. Everything on earth will perish.

did he kill ALL life? no

 

[justinthemartyr]

Matthew 24:39
and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away.

the flood didn’t take them ALL away.

 

[justinthemartyr]

Luke 17:27
People were eating, drinking, marrying and being given in marriage up to the day Noah entered the ark. Then the flood came and destroyed them all

ALL??? destroyed them ALL?
Noah, his wife his three sons and their wives were not destroyed.

he must not have literally meant “ALL”.

 

[justinthemartyr]

Luke 21:16-18

16You will be betrayed even by parents, brothers, relatives and friends, and they will put some of you to death. 17All men will hate you because of me. 18But not a hair of your head will perish.

did this literally mean ALL men? of course not.

 

[justinthemartyr]

John 12:32
But I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself

does Jesus draw ALL men to himself through his death on the cross?

of course not.

 

[justinthemartyr]

John 13:35
By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another."

do ALL men know that we are His disciples because we love one another? no

 

[MrS]

Well done, J-T-M

.