All have sinned.. including Mary.

  • Thread starter Thread starter believers
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Some things to consider, from ScriptureCatholic.com:

II. Mary - the Immaculate Ark of the New Covenant

Exodus 25:11-21 - the ark of the Old Covenant was made of the purest gold for God’s Word. Mary is the ark of the New Covenant and is the purest vessel for the Word of God made flesh.

2 Sam. 6:7 - the Ark is so holy and pure that when Uzzah touched it, the Lord slew him. This shows us that the Ark is undefiled. Mary the Ark of the New Covenant is even more immaculate and undefiled, spared by God from original sin so that she could bear His eternal Word in her womb.

1 Chron. 13:9-10 - this is another account of Uzzah and the Ark. For God to dwell within Mary the Ark, Mary had to be conceived without sin. For Protestants to argue otherwise would be to say that God would let the finger of Satan touch His Son made flesh. This is incomprehensible.

1 Chron. 15 and 16 - these verses show the awesome reverence the Jews had for the Ark - veneration, vestments, songs, harps, lyres, cymbals, trumpets.

Luke 1:39 / 2 Sam. 6:2 - Luke’s conspicuous comparison’s between Mary and the Ark described by Samuel underscores the reality of Mary as the undefiled and immaculate Ark of the New Covenant. In these verses, Mary (the Ark) arose and went / David arose and went to the Ark. There is a clear parallel between the Ark of the Old and the Ark of the New Covenant.

Luke 1:41 / 2 Sam. 6:16 - John the Baptist / King David leap for joy before Mary / Ark. So should we leap for joy before Mary the immaculate Ark of the Word made flesh.

Luke 1:43 / 2 Sam. 6:9 - How can the Mother / Ark of the Lord come to me? It is a holy privilege. Our Mother wants to come to us and lead us to Jesus.

Luke 1:56 / 2 Sam. 6:11 and 1 Chron. 13:14 - Mary / the Ark remained in the house for about three months.

Rev 11:19 - at this point in history, the Ark of the Old Covenant was not seen for six centuries (see 2 Macc. 2:7), and now it is finally seen in heaven. The Jewish people would have been absolutely amazed at this. However, John immediately passes over this fact and describes the “woman” clothed with the sun in Rev. 12:1. John is emphasizing that Mary is the Ark of the New Covenant and who, like the Old ark, is now worthy of veneration and praise. Also remember that Rev. 11:19 and Rev. 12:1 are tied together because there was no chapter and verse at the time these texts were written.

Rev 12:1 - the “woman” that John is describing is Mary, the Ark of the New Covenant, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars. Just as the moon reflects the light of the sun, so Mary, with the moon under her feet, reflects the glory of the Sun of Justice, Jesus Christ.

Rev. 12:17 - this verse tells us that Mary’s offspring are those who keep God’s commandments and bear testimony to Jesus. This demonstrates, as Catholics have always believed, that Mary is the Mother of all Christians.

Rev. 12:2 - Some Protestants argue that, because the woman had birth pangs, she was a woman with sin. However, Revelation is apocalyptic literature unique to the 1st century. It contains varied symbolism and multiple meanings of the woman (Mary, the Church and Israel). The birth pangs describe both the birth of the Church and Mary’s offspring being formed in Christ. Mary had no birth pangs in delivering her only Son Jesus.

Isaiah 66:7 - for example, we see Isaiah prophesying that before she (Mary) was in labor she gave birth; before her pain came upon her she was delivered of a son (Jesus). This is a Marian prophecy of the virgin birth of Jesus Christ.

Gal 4:19 - Paul also describes his pain as birth pangs in forming the disciples in Christ. Birth pangs describe formation in Christ.

Rom. 8:22 - also, Paul says the whole creation has been groaning in travail before the coming of Christ. We are all undergoing birth pangs because we are being reborn into Jesus Christ.

Jer. 13:21 - Jeremiah describes the birth pangs of Israel, like a woman in travail. Birth pangs are usually used metaphorically in the Scriptures.

Hos. 13:12-13 - Ephraim is also described as travailing in childbirth for his sins. Again, birth pangs are used metaphorically.

Micah 4:9-10 - Micah also describes Jerusalem as being seized by birth pangs like a woman in travail.

Rev. 12:13-16 - in these verses, we see that the devil still seeks to destroy the woman even after the Savior is born. This proves Mary is a danger to satan, even after the birth of Christ. This is because God has given her the power to intercede for us, and we should invoke her assistance in our spiritual lives.
 
Other quotes from the Early Church Fathers on the subject, again, from ScriptureCatholic.com:

II. Mary’s Immaculate Conception

“He was the ark formed of incorruptible wood. For by this is signified that His tabernacle was exempt from putridity and corruption.” Hippolytus, Orations Inillud, Dominus pascit me (ante A.D. 235).

“This Virgin Mother of the Only-begotten of God, is called Mary, worthy of God, immaculate of the immaculate, one of the one.” Origen, Homily 1(A.D. 244).

“Let woman praise Her, the pure Mary.” Ephraim, Hymns on the Nativity, 15:23 (A.D. 370).

“Thou alone and thy Mother are in all things fair, there is no flaw in thee and no stain in thy Mother.” Ephraem, Nisibene Hymns, 27:8 (A.D. 370).

“O noble Virgin, truly you are greater than any other greatness. For who is your equal in greatness, O dwelling place of God the Word? To whom among all creatures shall I compare you, O Virgin? You are greater than them all O Covenant, clothed with purity instead of gold! You are the Ark in which is found the golden vessel containing the true manna, that is, the flesh in which divinity resides.” Athanasius, Homily of the Papyrus of Turin, 71:216 (ante AD 373).

“Mary, a Virgin not only undefiled but a Virgin whom grace has made inviolate, free of every stain of sin.” Ambrose, Sermon 22:30 (A.D. 388).

“We must except the Holy Virgin Mary, concerning whom I wish to raise no question when it touches the subject of sins, out of honour to the Lord; for from Him we know what abundance of grace for overcoming sin in every particular was conferred upon her who had the merit to conceive and bear Him who undoubtedly had no sin.” Augustine, Nature and Grace,4 2[36] (A.D.415).

“As he formed her without my stain of her own, so He proceeded from her contracting no stain.” Proclus of Constantinople, Homily 1 (ante A.D. 446).

“A virgin, innocent, spotless, free of all defect, untouched, unsullied, holy in soul and body, like a lily sprouting among thorns.” Theodotus of Ancrya, Homily VI:11(ante A.D. 446).

“The angel took not the Virgin from Joseph, but gave her to Christ, to whom she was pledged from Joseph, but gave her to Christ, to whom she was pledged in the womb, when she was made.” Peter Chrysologus, Sermon 140 (A.D. 449).

“[T]he very fact that God has elected her proves that none was ever holier than Mary, if any stain had disfigured her soul, if any other virgin had been purer and holier, God would have selected her and rejected Mary.” Jacob of Sarug (ante A.D. 521).

“She is born like the cherubim, she who is of a pure, immaculate clay.” Theotokos of Livias, Panegyric for the feast of the Assumption, 5:6 (ante A.D. 650).

“Today humanity, in all the radiance of her immaculate nobility, receives its ancient beauty. The shame of sin had darkened the splendour and attraction of human nature; but when the Mother of the Fair One par excellence is born, this nature regains in her person its ancient privileges and is fashioned according to a perfect model truly worthy of God… The reform of our nature begins today and the aged world, subjected to a wholly divine transformation, receives the first fruits of the second creation.” Andrew of Crete, Sermon I, On the Birth of Mary (A.D. 733).

“[T]ruly elect, and superior to all, not by the altitude of lofty structures, but as excelling all in the greatness and purity of sublime and divine virtues, and having no affinity with sin whatever.” Germanus of Constantinople, Marracci in S. Germani Mariali (ante A.D. 733).

“O most blessed loins of Joachim from which came forth a spotless seed! O glorious womb of Anne in which a most holy offspring grew.” John of Damascus, Homily I (ante A.D. 749).
 
Originally Posted by believers
Anyway… Mary was blessed but she can’t save you. She can’t do anything for you. It’s all about Jesus. He died for you.

**The Church does not teach that Mary can save us. It teaches that She can intercede for us because she is mother of the Church. She can do this because of Christ. As I said before, nothing can emanate from Mary that does not originate in Christ.

I always find it entertaining when nonCatholics come into these forums and insist on telling us what the Church teaches and what we believe LOL**
 
peary said:
I always find it entertaining when nonCatholics come into these forums and insist on telling us what the Church teaches and what we believe LOL
Click to expand...
What’s even better is that the Church is “wrong” just because they say so;) 😃 😛
 
believers said:
Altar calls are simply call for people to Accept the gift of salvation through faith in the Jesus. They don’t have to come to the front. They can receive Jesus any where. If they call on Him.

Trinity is term used to denote the Godhead as 3 in 1. God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit.

Who compiled the Bible? The early Christians. The Romans got a hold of the scrolls came up with a table of contents and declared they were the ones that compiled the bible. ( The last line is only a guess)
Click to expand...
The Catholic councils of Carthage and Hippo were in part responsible for the decision of which scriptures to include. This was later reaffirmed by the pope (I believe at the Council of Rome). No complete Bible even existed until St. Jerome compiled the Vulgate in the early 400s AD. (Yes… all the scriptures were there, but not under one cover, and not in a single language that all could read.)

You can trust me on this… I’m a professional historian.
 
Believers, I am enjoying the discussion, but I’m afraid I have to go to bed if I have any hope of getting up to teach my classes tomorrow. I will continue the discussion tomorrow. Good night.
 
Rolltide said:
Some things to consider, from ScriptureCatholic.com:

II. Mary - the Immaculate Ark of the New Covenant

Exodus 25:11-21 - the ark of the Old Covenant was made of the purest gold for God’s Word. Mary is the ark of the New Covenant and is the purest vessel for the Word of God made flesh.

2 Sam. 6:7 - the Ark is so holy and pure that when Uzzah touched it, the Lord slew him. This shows us that the Ark is undefiled. Mary the Ark of the New Covenant is even more immaculate and undefiled, spared by God from original sin so that she could bear His eternal Word in her womb.

1 Chron. 13:9-10 - this is another account of Uzzah and the Ark. For God to dwell within Mary the Ark, Mary had to be conceived without sin. For Protestants to argue otherwise would be to say that God would let the finger of Satan touch His Son made flesh. This is incomprehensible.

1 Chron. 15 and 16 - these verses show the awesome reverence the Jews had for the Ark - veneration, vestments, songs, harps, lyres, cymbals, trumpets.

Luke 1:39 / 2 Sam. 6:2 - Luke’s conspicuous comparison’s between Mary and the Ark described by Samuel underscores the reality of Mary as the undefiled and immaculate Ark of the New Covenant. In these verses, Mary (the Ark) arose and went / David arose and went to the Ark. There is a clear parallel between the Ark of the Old and the Ark of the New Covenant.

Luke 1:41 / 2 Sam. 6:16 - John the Baptist / King David leap for joy before Mary / Ark. So should we leap for joy before Mary the immaculate Ark of the Word made flesh.

Luke 1:43 / 2 Sam. 6:9 - How can the Mother / Ark of the Lord come to me? It is a holy privilege. Our Mother wants to come to us and lead us to Jesus.

Luke 1:56 / 2 Sam. 6:11 and 1 Chron. 13:14 - Mary / the Ark remained in the house for about three months.

Rev 11:19 - at this point in history, the Ark of the Old Covenant was not seen for six centuries (see 2 Macc. 2:7), and now it is finally seen in heaven. The Jewish people would have been absolutely amazed at this. However, John immediately passes over this fact and describes the “woman” clothed with the sun in Rev. 12:1. John is emphasizing that Mary is the Ark of the New Covenant and who, like the Old ark, is now worthy of veneration and praise. Also remember that Rev. 11:19 and Rev. 12:1 are tied together because there was no chapter and verse at the time these texts were written.

Rev 12:1 - the “woman” that John is describing is Mary, the Ark of the New Covenant, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars. Just as the moon reflects the light of the sun, so Mary, with the moon under her feet, reflects the glory of the Sun of Justice, Jesus Christ.

Rev. 12:17 - this verse tells us that Mary’s offspring are those who keep God’s commandments and bear testimony to Jesus. This demonstrates, as Catholics have always believed, that Mary is the Mother of all Christians.

Rev. 12:2 - Some Protestants argue that, because the woman had birth pangs, she was a woman with sin. However, Revelation is apocalyptic literature unique to the 1st century. It contains varied symbolism and multiple meanings of the woman (Mary, the Church and Israel). The birth pangs describe both the birth of the Church and Mary’s offspring being formed in Christ. Mary had no birth pangs in delivering her only Son Jesus.

Isaiah 66:7 - for example, we see Isaiah prophesying that before she (Mary) was in labor she gave birth; before her pain came upon her she was delivered of a son (Jesus). This is a Marian prophecy of the virgin birth of Jesus Christ.

Gal 4:19 - Paul also describes his pain as birth pangs in forming the disciples in Christ. Birth pangs describe formation in Christ.

Rom. 8:22 - also, Paul says the whole creation has been groaning in travail before the coming of Christ. We are all undergoing birth pangs because we are being reborn into Jesus Christ.

Jer. 13:21 - Jeremiah describes the birth pangs of Israel, like a woman in travail. Birth pangs are usually used metaphorically in the Scriptures.

Hos. 13:12-13 - Ephraim is also described as travailing in childbirth for his sins. Again, birth pangs are used metaphorically.

Micah 4:9-10 - Micah also describes Jerusalem as being seized by birth pangs like a woman in travail.

Rev. 12:13-16 - in these verses, we see that the devil still seeks to destroy the woman even after the Savior is born. This proves Mary is a danger to satan, even after the birth of Christ. This is because God has given her the power to intercede for us, and we should invoke her assistance in our spiritual lives.
Click to expand...
Things to consider…

God said ALL have been judged to hell because of Adam
God said ALL have sinned.
Jesus while on earth said “no one is good but God.” hmm… not even Mary?
 
believers said:
God CREATED Mary. She is a creature. A vessel used by God because she was highly favored.
Click to expand...
God did make Mary, yes, but she also was the mother to Jesus, who was true God and true man. Therefore, she is the Mother of God, and by extension mother to us all.
 
Rolltide said:
Believers, I am enjoying the discussion, but I’m afraid I have to go to bed if I have any hope of getting up to teach my classes tomorrow. I will continue the discussion tomorrow. Good night.
Click to expand...
Yea… gotta go too. Have a good night and God Bless you in Jesus name.
 
Originally Posted by **believers **
Altar calls are simply call for people to Accept the gift of salvation through faith in the Jesus. They don’t have to come to the front. They can receive Jesus any where. If they call on Him.

But you don’t have altars. Altars are reserved for sacrifice. You have a ‘table’. Why not just be truthful and call it a “table call”? And you didn’t show us in Scripture where there is an "altar call."

Trinity is term used to denote the Godhead as 3 in 1. God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit.

But the word ‘Trinity’ isn’t in Scripture. Why do you believe in it, then?

Who compiled the Bible? The early Christians. The Romans got a hold of the scrolls came up with a table of contents and declared they were the ones that compiled the bible. ( The last line is only a guess)

Wow, that’s the best revisionist history I’ve ever come across! :rotfl:
 
believers said:
Altar calls are simply call for people to Accept the gift of salvation through faith in the Jesus. They don’t have to come to the front. They can receive Jesus any where. If they call on Him.

Trinity is term used to denote the Godhead as 3 in 1. God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit.

Who compiled the Bible? The early Christians. The Romans got a hold of the scrolls came up with a table of contents and declared they were the ones that compiled the bible. ( The last line is only a guess)
Click to expand...
Give me the Biblical passages which are explicit in the Trinity.

Are you aware that there were plenty of books claiming to be the Gospel? There’s the “Gospels” of Thomas, of Peter, of Marcion, of Judas. In addition to “Acts of the Apostles” there’s books called “Acts of Pilate”, “Acts of Barnabas” among others.

So how is it, that the true New Testament was assembled among all these different books? Could it be that Christians decided to put this matter to rest and assembled and formed councils to decide what books are inspired and what aren’t?
 
believers said:
Things to consider…

God said ALL have been judged to hell because of Adam
God said ALL have sinned.
Jesus while on earth said “no one is good but God.” hmm… not even Mary?
Click to expand...
I’m sure God loves how you take everything he says literaly, well except for “my flesh is real food and my body is real drink”, and “upon this rock I build my church”
 
Rolltide said:
The Catholic councils of Carthage and Hippo were in part responsible for the decision of which scriptures to include. This was later reaffirmed by the pope (I believe at the Council of Rome). No complete Bible even existed until St. Jerome compiled the Vulgate in the early 400s AD. (Yes… all the scriptures were there, but not under one cover, and not in a single language that all could read.)

You can trust me on this… I’m a professional historian.
Click to expand...
I’ll respond to this before I go… Here’s the problem. You believe this like it is scripture. Unless you were there… you don’t know what your believing is 100% accurate. Almighty God said that we are to be sanctified through God’s truth which is the Word of God.

Jhn 17:17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

He did not say trust in professional historians and history of the Roman Catholic Church. We are to believe God and take Him at His Word.
 
believers said:
I’ll respond to this before I go… Here’s the problem. You believe this like it is scripture. Unless you were there… you don’t know what your believing is 100% accurate. Almighty God said that we are to be sanctified through God’s truth which is the Word of God.

Jhn 17:17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

He did not say trust in professional historians and history of the Roman Catholic Church.
Click to expand...
You dont know the bible is 100% accurate ethier;)

And it isn’t just the Roman Catholic Church, but at this time the Church was the Catholic Church pre-schism, that inculdes the Eastern Churchs
 
believers said:
The Vatican wants you to believe that sin is just a stain and that this stain can be washed away with water. That’s not what we read in the Bible. The sin we received from Adam is judgment of condemnation. That means we all go to hell by default unless we are born-again spiritually.

Rom 5:18
Therefore as by the offence of one [judgment came] upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one [the free gift came] upon all men unto justification of life.

Therefore… ALL have sinned including Mary.

Luk 1:46
And Mary said, My soul doth magnify the Lord,

Luk 1:47
And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.
Click to expand...
you are so wrong the RCC believe in being born of WATER and SPIRIT just like Jesus told Nicodemus John 3:5 “Jesus answer Amen Amen I say to you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of WATER and SPIRIT”
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top