All have sinned.. including Mary.

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anyway, you cant mix salt and pepper and still call it salt.how much more will you add to the gospel message and call it truth? if you have read the bible, then you would be familiar with galations. paul fought hard to keep the gospel pure, but the judiazers (rcc) polluted it.now i find it very hard to believe anyone on this site is sharing jesus. every where i’ve been, here, has led me every where else but jesus. now why is that? it is because you have replaced god .there is alittle bit of god,with a dash of jesus, a couple of shakes of the saints, a can of mary, and top it off with what the pope said in the chair of peter. thats the good news??? .
Your posts appear to be full of disrespect and blame. How did it come to this? I think you are in the right place to correct it, but you won’t be able to stay long if you don’t follow the forum rules.
It is not allowed to make sweeping, pejorative references to the faith of any one group of people, as you have done here(equating the judiazers with the rcc). Such statements only foment prejudice.

God chose to build a Church, and He is the one who said He would not leave her orphaned. He is the one who chose to come to earth born of a woman. He is the one who appointed Peter as Rock, and gave him the keys to the kingdom. It is His recipe that you don’t seem to like.

The good news comes in the form of Sacred Tradition, which we receive, and then hand down just as it was given. Here is an example:

1 Cor 15:3-6

3 For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the scriptures, 4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the scriptures, 5 and that he appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve.

That is the good news. 👍
 
i am fully aware of what you are doing here. you call it honoring mary, i call it worshipping the creation. regardless of this way you are trying to prove, the bible points directly to jesus, not mary, whom you have deified. this is what god calls blasphemy, and it cheapens what his son did on the cross.and he will forgive you but you must turn from this pagan theory you so cling too.
No, you are not fully aware of anything. The theological impact of God placing a woman at the center of salvation history is something upon which you should reflect. You have that rigid protestant error of belief that anything physical/material is evil and bad, which contradicts God’s own summation of His own creation:

God saw how good the light was.(Gen. 1:4)
God saw how good it was. (Gen.1:10)
God saw how*** good ***it was. (Gen. 1:12)
God saw how good it was (Gen. 1:18)
God saw how good it was. (Gen. 1:21)
God saw how good it was (Gen. 1:25)
God looked at everything he had made, and he found it very good. (Gen. 1:31)

It is honoring Mary, and worshipping her, because of her unique place in salvation history for being the chosen vessel, albeit the very real mother of Our Savior and Lord. She was a unique creation in the history of the world.

If anyone has cheapened anything, it is you with the error-prone attitude against God’s creation - ALL of it - which deemed VERY GOOD. You need to count the blessings in your own life, not be hateful and degrade what God has wrought.
 
No, you are not fully aware of anything. The theological impact of God placing a woman at the center of salvation history is something upon which you should reflect. You have that rigid protestant error of belief that anything physical/material is evil and bad, which contradicts God’s own summation of His own creation:

God saw how good the light was.(Gen. 1:4)
God saw how good it was. (Gen.1:10)
God saw how*** good ***it was. (Gen. 1:12)
God saw how good it was (Gen. 1:18)
God saw how good it was. (Gen. 1:21)
God saw how good it was (Gen. 1:25)
God looked at everything he had made, and he found it very good. (Gen. 1:31)

It is honoring Mary, NOT worshipping her, because of her unique place in salvation history for being the chosen vessel, albeit the very real mother of Our Savior and Lord. She was a unique creation in the history of the world.

If anyone has cheapened anything, it is you with the error-prone attitude against God’s creation - ALL of it - which deemed VERY GOOD. You need to count the blessings in your own life, not be hateful and degrade what God has wrought.
 
interesting. i always wondered why you replaced jesus with mary. now i see from your own words… mary might have been LIKE the ark, but she could never BE the ark, that represented god.
The ark was God’s throne (hence the cherubim on it and constant references in the Psalms and elsewhere to God’s ‘cherubim throne’), it never represented God or anything else.
 
Roman Catholics… Why don’t you believe ALL (including Mary) have sinned? God said it… shouldn’t that be final?

Rom 3:23
For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

Rom 5:12
Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
It is true that we are all in need of a savior including Mary, but Mary; by a single act of God’s grace was preserved from the stain of original sin and remained ever sinless and full of grace until she was assumed into heaven.
 
you see, sometimes i want to tell those catholics to put down their sacred traditions and pick up a bible and read gods word. but they won’t, when you have heard his word, he convicts you, but you won’t listen. you quickly want to make his word obsolete to enhance you human theory. repent and come back to your first love.
All the major heresies in Christendom - ie, Arianism, Nestorianism, Protestantism, Unitariansim - were formed by individuals who had read God’s word. Scripture must be interpreted in light of Apostolic Tradition by the teaching authority of the Catholic Church. You confuse God’s definitive word with your own private interpretations. Jesus founded one Church on Peter and the Apostles for the chief purpose of communicating his truth to the faithful. Their successors, the Apostolic body, consist of the Pope in union with the world’s Bishops. The Magisterium alone has the divinely ordained authority to interpret Scripture in the formulation of doctrine and promulgation of dogma. Christ is revealing to us through his Church that his blessed mother was sinless.

If I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God’s household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.
1 Timothy 3, 15

Pax vobiscum
Good Fella :cool:
 
It is honoring Mary, and worshipping her, because of her unique place in salvation history for being the chosen vessel, albeit the very real mother of Our Savior and Lord. She was a unique creation in the history of the world.
I think this is a very poor choice of words in this context. Most PRotestants don’t know any Latin, and don’t understand the distinction that Catholics apply. I think it would be more useful to express the sentiment using some other word that will not have misleading results. :o
 
I think this is a very poor choice of words in this context. Most PRotestants don’t know any Latin, and don’t understand the distinction that Catholics apply. I think it would be more useful to express the sentiment using some other word that will not have misleading results. :o
I hit ‘submit’ by mistake rather than ‘review’. I corrected myself in # 901. That’s the one you need to address.
Sorry! :o
 
I hit ‘submit’ by mistake rather than ‘review’. I corrected myself in # 901. That’s the one you need to address.
Sorry! :o
OIC, great. You get 20 min to edit a post - there is an edit button right next to “quote”. I do that kind of stuff all the time. 😉
 
That’s very good news, but you have the recipe wrong. God’s the can, add a couple shakes of Jesus, a dash of Mary, a little bit of the saints, and top it off with ex cathedra. Makes for a better Heaven pie then Protestant bible cake. You can eat your words, I’ll feed on the truth.
then you can eat that soup esau, its what you really want anyhow…
 
The topic is “All have sinned… including Mary”, Does that include Jesus too?? When it is said that All have sinned. That means All. So may I conclude that Jesus is a sinner too.
The christians have a funny way of doing things. They are adamant to call every one a sinner. But they do not like that Jesus should be a sinner. Why is that?? Are we to decide this matter as to who is a sinner and who is not. Why not we leave that to God Almighty??
 
The topic is “All have sinned… including Mary”, Does that include Jesus too?? When it is said that All have sinned. That means All. So may I conclude that Jesus is a sinner too.
The christians have a funny way of doing things. They are adamant to call every one a sinner. But they do not like that Jesus should be a sinner. Why is that?? Are we to decide this matter as to who is a sinner and who is not. Why not we leave that to God Almighty??
Thanks planten…looks like the boat is back on course, or at least a parallel one now.

I’m a Catholic. I don’t believe Jesus was a sinner. St Peter, upon whom Jesus said He would build his Church said the** Blood of Christ is the blood of a lamb innocent and without blemish**(1 Peter 1:18,19).

Your idea of leaving the decisions of a matter of who is a sinner up to God Almighty is a good one as far as it concerns our fellow men. We are better off concentrating on our own faults rather than those of others.

Yet in keeping with the sense of the forum, it is listed under non-Catholic religions - not under non-Christian religions. So to many of us to say leaving it up to God Almighty to decide if Jesus was a sinner is the same as saying “Leaving it up to God Almighty to decide if God Almighty was a sinner.”

But while we’re on the subject, let’s take a closer look:

Was Jesus in his human nature capable of sinning ? I think so because in Luke 4: 1-13, and Matt 4: 1-11, it says the devil tempted Jesus three times. What I find interesting is that each time Jesus replied “It is written…” or " Scripture has it…"; depending on your translation of the bible (if you have one).

The very fact that Jesus refers the tempter to sacred scripture indicates that He was in complete conformity with the word of God (He could not be otherwise because he is the Word of God [John 1: 1-14]).

Jesus was God and man - having both a human nature and a divine nature; hence a human will and a divine will. That’s why we find in scripture more than one reference to Jesus’ obedience - He obeyed his divine will with his human will So he didn’t sin.

However, in his agony in the garden of Gethsemane, he took all our sins upon Himself for the purpose of expiation; to Saint Faustina Kowalska of the Divine Mercy, Jesus said he endured **a dreadful loathing of soul **in the garden of Gethsemane…only God can know what that feels like.

If one does not believe Jesus is God, then one will not be able to grasp that truth that Jesus did not sin.

God bless all who have posted here.
 
Roman Catholics… Why don’t you believe ALL (including Mary) have sinned? God said it… shouldn’t that be final?

Rom 3:23
For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

Rom 5:12
Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
Do you think that God would have a sinful carrier for his son? Mary was the Ark of the Covenant, and, as you know, the Ark was spotless and without blemish. Mary was too. She was a virgin and a sinless person to be able to carry a sinless son.
 
Originally Posted by **believers **Roman Catholics… Why don’t you believe ALL (including Mary) have sinned? God said it… shouldn’t that be final?

Originally Posted by **peary **

The theological impact of God placing a woman at the center of salvation history is something upon which you should reflect. Because you cannot fathom that a woman would be held in such high esteem by God due to your own cultural limitations and religious ignorance, you believe that whatever God has created is either bad, evil, or beneath human dignity because of sin.This contradicts God’s own summation of His own creation:

God saw **how good **the light was.(Gen. 1:4)
God saw **how good **it was. (Gen.1:10)
God saw **how good **it was. (Gen. 1:12)
God saw **how good **it was (Gen. 1:18)
God saw **how good **it was. (Gen. 1:21)
God saw **how good **it was (Gen. 1:25)
God looked at everything he had made, and he found it very good. (Gen. 1:31)

It is honoring Mary, NOT worshipping her, because of her unique place in salvation history for being the chosen vessel, albeit the very real mother of Our Savior and Lord. She was a unique creation in the history of the world.

If anyone has cheapened anything, it is you with the error-prone attitude against God’s creation - ALL of it - which God deemed VERY GOOD. You need to count the blessings in your own life, not be hateful and degrade what God has wrought.

The difference in understanding various protestant attitudes toward the human being can be roughly stated in this way: evangelicals and fundamentalists believe (along with Calvinists) that a human being is born in total devastation of sin and beyond hope of salvation; it is only through God’s mercy that one can be saved and even that is not assured. Lutherans and those from that theology believe that human beings are born sinful but they can be redeemed through God’s mercy. Catholic Christians believe that human beings are born good but have the stain of original sin which must be washed away through Baptism in order to enter the family of God. They can be ‘re-generated’ through God’s mercy and total love.

Calvinists: human beings = D.O.A.
Lutherans: human beings = hospitalized
Catholics: human beings = can leave the hospital after tender-loving care.
 
We hardly see anything regarding Mary in the first few centuries other then when she is mentioned with Christ. It’s not until the 4th and 5th centuries that these beliefs became more prominent. No early church father from the 1st or 2nd century comments on Mary’s sinless nature. If they do then show it to me. I’d genuinely be interested in reading it. PEACE
“There is one Physician who is possessed both of flesh and spirit; both made and not made; God existing in flesh; true life in death; ‘both’ of Mary and of God; first possible and then impossible, even Jesus Christ our Lord.”
Ignatius of Antioch, ‘To the Ephesians’ (c.A.D. 110)

Ignatius alludes to Mary as both the Mother of God and the Spouse of the Holy Spirit in her role as the New Eve, most blessed among all women. The old Eve was sinful. Yet Mary’s divine maternity in cooperation with the Holy Spirit is the primary reason why Catholics have traditionally believed that the mother of our Lord was sinless.

And the angel said to her in reply, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. Therefore, the child to be born will be called holy, the Son of God.” {Luke 1, 35}

The angel Gabriel speaks of a holy child, both of a sinless mother “full of grace”] and of God.

“He became man by the Virgin, in order that the disobedience which proceeded from the serpent might receive its destruction in the same manner in which it derived its origin. For Eve, who was a virgin undefiled, having conceived the word of the serpent, brought forth disobedience and death. But the Virgin Mary received faith and joy…And by her has He been born.”
Justin Martyr, ‘Dialogue With Trypho’ (A.D. 155)

Like his successor, Irenaeus, Justin Martyr ascribes to Mary and her faithful obedience an active share in the redemption of mankind. Man had died in Adam, but Eve played a part in the sin that brought about the Fall. Thus, as all men were saved by Christ (the New Adam), Mary (the New Eve) had participated in our salvation by freely accepting God’s will. Justin Martyr could not have believed that a sinful woman who shares common ground with Eve should play an active role in completely reversing the Fall. The New Eve was regarded as being totally opposed to the old Eve. Eve was “undefiled” before she sinned against God. Mary remained undefiled after she accepted the word of God.

“He was born of Mary, the fair Ewe [New Eve].”
Melito de Sardo, ‘Easter Homily’ (A.D. 177)

“I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers.” He (she) will strike at your head, while you strike at his (her) heel." {Genesis 3, 15}

“Consequently, then, Mary the Virgin is found to be obedient, saying, ‘Behold, O Lord, your handmaid; be it done to me according to your word.’ Eve, however, was disobedient; and when ‘yet a virgin’, she did not obey…having become disobedient, was made the cause of death for herself and for the whole human race…Thus, the knot of Eve’s disobedience was loosed by the obedience of Mary. What the virgin Eve had bound in unbelief, the virgin Mary loosed through faith.”
Irenaeus ‘Against Heresies’ (A.D. 180)

Ireneaus uses “virginity” as a sign of sinlessness. He presents Mary as being sinless just as Eve was sinless before the Fall. And since Mary had played an active role in the Father’s plan as the New Eve in undoing the consequence of Eve’s sinfulness [disobedience against God], the Blessed Virgin remained sinless throughout her entire life. Unlike Eve, she never believed what the devil would tell her. Her faith and trust in God was perfect. The tradition of Mary’s sinlessness was already there by this time. It’s not until the turn of the next century that we find writings which are more explicit concerning the Church’s traditional belief in Mary’s sinlessness.

Hyppolytus describes Mary as holy.

“For whereas the Word of God was without flesh, He took upon Himself the ‘holy’ flesh by the ‘holy’ Virgin’, and prepared a robe which he wove for Himself like a bridegroom, in the sufferings of the cross, in order that by uniting His own power with our mortal body, and by mixing the incorruptible with the corruptible, and the strong with the weak, He might save perishing man.”
Hyppolytus, ‘Treatise on Christ and antiChrist’ (A.D. 200)

Mary is invoked as the “holy Virgin” showing the connection between virginity and sinlessness. The Church has always known from the beginning that Mary was perpetually a virgin (Lk 1, 34). Having preserved her virginity, she remained sinless in the eyes of the Church. By the grace of God she was sinless, for she was chosen to be the mother of our Lord.

And Elizabeth, filled with the Holy Spirit, cried out in a loud voice, “Most blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb.” {Luke 1, 42}

Obviously both mother and child share something extraordinary in common: virginity, sinlessness, holiness. Mary’s blessing from God is compared to the blessing that rests on her divine Son. Jesus was blessed in his humanity by being sinless (Heb 4, 15). Mary was blessed by God as the mother of His Son and in her freedom from the stain of original sin.

Pax vobiscum
Good Fella :cool:
 
Mary was not sinless or even exempt from original sin. No Bible passage even in the slightest sense refers this this idea. 👍
But the Bible does not contain everything that Jesus did/said… & the Bible tells us that this is so…

I have been reading a lot of history lately… & now i more fully understand the words of Cardinal Newman (convert) that: “To be deep into history is to cease to be Protestant.”

( Of course, those history books written by those who hate the Church are not to be trusted…)
 
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