All have sinned.. including Mary.

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Goodfella the problem with your argument is that you first question the validity of Paul but then use his letter to support your claim.

The new eve as you are trying to claim as Mary being sinless in order to create Jesus as sinless is ridiculous. Consider:

2 Corinthians: 21 For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

Paul says that GOD made Jesus to be sin, meaning Jesus was going to take on all our sins, but that Jesus didn’t know sin. So GOD made Jesus sinless. Mary didn’t make Jesus sinless.

PEACE
I am not questioning whether Paul was actually divinely inspired. I am pointing out that his epistles are not explicitly clear on the ontological deity of Christ. And so religious scholars are in a position to question whether the apostle shared the same fundamental view of the Church by the late fourth century. It’s this lack of explicitness in Scripture that served to give rise to the major Christological and Trinitarian heresies which compelled the Church to define her doctrines. For instance, Arius cited John’s Prologue and Philippians 2, 6-11 to support his heretical teaching. Like I said above, Scripture is materially sufficient but formally insufficient. Scripture must be interpreted in light of Apostolic Tradition, for “the Church is the pillar and bulwark of the truth”. It’s ironic that mainstream Protestants accept the Catholic Church’s Christological dogmas yet reject her Marian teachings, such as Mary’s Immaculate Conception and her personal sinlessness. If Protestants believe that the Church has erred in her Marian doctrines, how can they be sure that the Church did not err in her Christological teachings? What would be the point of our Lord sending his Paraclete to the Church if she would not be protected from declaring false doctrines? Let’s be logical for a change and stop rationalizing. If I wanted to assume an Arian postion and support it by citing scripture, I can assure you that my argument could be just as convincing as that of orthodox Catholicism.

You may have missed a post of mine farther above concerning the human nature which Christ received from his mother, Mary. It is a question of fittingness, not necessity. Jesus is a divine Person with a divine and human nature, and as a divine Person he could not necessarily inherit original sin from a woman who may have been conceived in that primal state of sin. We read in Hebrews 4, 15 that Jesus was without sin. In light of this verse, Genesis 3, 15 tells us the enmity between the seed of the woman (Jesus) and the seed of the serpent (original sin) is absolutely complete. Now this same enmity exists between the woman and the serpent. In other words, she shares the same ground with her seed against the serpent and his seed. If Jesus (the New Adam) were sinless, Mary (the New Eve) had to have been sinless too. This is consistent with Mary’s role as the New Eve. Both Adam and Eve were originally created without sin. Adam was a type of Jesus in this sense. The New Adam had to be sinless like the original Adam before the Fall in order to reverse it. Likewise, the woman who would play an active role in God’s plan of salvation had to be as sinless as Eve was before she disobeyed God. The New Eve had to be conceived preserved free from original sin, for she had a part to play along with her Son in reversing the Fall. Woman did play a key role by implicating Man in her disobedience, having seduced him to disobey God as well and bring about the eventual Fall. If Mary were not immaculately conceived, she could not fulfill the prophetic type she holds with Eve nor play a key role together with her Son who is a type of Adam before the Fall. So because the New Adam must be sinless, the New Eve had to be sinless too. And as Eve was fashioned from sinless Adam, the sinless New Adam had to be fashioned from a sinless New Eve. God made both Jesus and Mary sinless: Our Lord by his uncreated substantial grace of union with the Father, Mary be her Immaculate Conception. Romans 5, 14 and Genesis 3, 15 are prophetically connected. The early Church Fathers believed Mary was sinless because of her role as the New Eve. The doctrine of the Immaculate Conception would appear in the writings of the Fathers only after the Church had precisely articulated the doctrine of original sin in the fifth century. First A, then B.

Pax vobiscum
Good Fella :cool:
 
I’ve never ment anyone who belived Mary could save them. It is all about Jesus, everything she does, is done through him. She can pray for us;)
I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images." -Isaiah 42:8

The 15 Promises of Our Lady to Christians Who Recite the Rosary

Whoever shall faithfully serve Me by the recitation of the Rosary, shall receive signal graces.

I promise My special protection and the greatest graces to all who shall recite the Rosary.

The Rosary shall be a powerful armor against hell, it will destroy vice, decrease sin, and defeat heresies.
It will cause virtue and good works to flourish; it will obtain for souls the abundant mercy of God; it will withdraw the hearts of men from the love of the world and its vanities, and will lift them to the desire of eternal things. Oh, that souls would sanctify themselves by this means.

The soul which recommends itself to Me by the recitation of the Rosary, shall not perish.

Whoever shall recite the Rosary devoutly, applying himself to the consideration of its sacred mysteries, shall never be conquered by misfortune. God will not chastise him in His justice, he shall not perish by an unprovided death; if he be just he shall remain in the grace of God, and become worthy of eternal life.

Whoever shall have a true devotion for the Rosary shall not die without the Sacraments of the Church.

Those who are faithful in reciting the Rosary shall have during their life and at their death the light of God and the plenitude of His graces; at the moment of death they shall participate in the merits of the saints in paradise.

I shall deliver from purgatory, those who have been devoted to the Rosary.

The faithful children of the Rosary shall merit a high degree of glory in Heaven.

You shall obtain all you ask of Me by the recitation of the Rosary.

All those who propagate the holy Rosary shall be aided by Me in their necessities.

I have obtained from My Divine Son, that all the advocates of the Rosary shall have for intercessors, the entire celestial court during their life and at the hour of death.

All who recite the Rosary are My sons, and brothers of My only son Jesus Christ.

Devotion to My Rosary is a great sign of predestination.
 
Because that passage is a classic case of hyperbole in order to make a point.
Do you REALLY believe that ALL have sinned?
What about the severly retarded or people with other severe mental disorders.
What about babies? Toddlers? Have they ALL sinned?
I think not.

By the grace of God, having lived a sinless life was possible for the Blessed Mother because she was spared from Original Sin.
if all did not sin why do you have to baptize babies ?
 
guanophore;3577254]
Originally Posted by justasking4
What is this “Tradition” that you refer to? If its not found in the scriptures then it has to come originally from the mind of a man.
guanophore
This is an amazing and mind boggling assertion. Basically, what you are saying is that everything the Apostles taught before it was written did not come from Christ, but from man! It means that you cannot trust your bible at all!
You again misunderstand what i’m saying. What i’m saying is that what is not grounded in the scriptrues such as Mary’s supposed sinlessness, would be speculation since God never revealed such a thing and would come from the minds of men.
I also discounts the gift of prophesy completely. Do you reject the spiritual gifts also?
no
 
if all did not sin why do you have to baptize babies ?
We baptize babies because of original sin, not personal sin. We inherit the consequences of the sin of Adam, and are born in a fallen state, separated from the grace of God. Baptism washes this sin away, so that we can receive the saving grace of God.
 
guanophore;3577254]
Originally Posted by justasking4
This still does not mean a church cannot err in doctrine. Being the support and foundation of the truth does not mean it cannot err.
guanophore
Can you explain how we can be the pillar and support of the Truth, if we don’t know what it is?
Where has the catholic church offically interpreted this verse? We need to see how this passage can be made to say the church has not and cannot err. 😉
 
Because that passage is a classic case of hyperbole in order to make a point.
Do you REALLY believe that ALL have sinned?
What about the severly retarded or people with other severe mental disorders.
What about babies? Toddlers? Have they ALL sinned?
I think not.

By the grace of God, having lived a sinless life was possible for the Blessed Mother because she was spared from Original Sin.
Does the catholic church bpatize those with mental disorders? If so, why?
 
I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images." -Isaiah 42:8

The 15 Promises of Our Lady to Christians Who Recite the Rosary

Whoever shall faithfully serve Me by the recitation of the Rosary, shall receive signal graces.

I promise My special protection and the greatest graces to all who shall recite the Rosary.

The Rosary shall be a powerful armor against hell, it will destroy vice, decrease sin, and defeat heresies.
It will cause virtue and good works to flourish; it will obtain for souls the abundant mercy of God; it will withdraw the hearts of men from the love of the world and its vanities, and will lift them to the desire of eternal things. Oh, that souls would sanctify themselves by this means.

The soul which recommends itself to Me by the recitation of the Rosary, shall not perish.

Whoever shall recite the Rosary devoutly, applying himself to the consideration of its sacred mysteries, shall never be conquered by misfortune. God will not chastise him in His justice, he shall not perish by an unprovided death; if he be just he shall remain in the grace of God, and become worthy of eternal life.

Whoever shall have a true devotion for the Rosary shall not die without the Sacraments of the Church.

Those who are faithful in reciting the Rosary shall have during their life and at their death the light of God and the plenitude of His graces; at the moment of death they shall participate in the merits of the saints in paradise.

I shall deliver from purgatory, those who have been devoted to the Rosary.

The faithful children of the Rosary shall merit a high degree of glory in Heaven.

You shall obtain all you ask of Me by the recitation of the Rosary.

All those who propagate the holy Rosary shall be aided by Me in their necessities.

I have obtained from My Divine Son, that all the advocates of the Rosary shall have for intercessors, the entire celestial court during their life and at the hour of death.

All who recite the Rosary are My sons, and brothers of My only son Jesus Christ.

Devotion to My Rosary is a great sign of predestination.
What do the underlined passages have to do with anything? The Rosary is a prayer, not a graven image. The beads are a tool for praying that prayer. We can and do sometimes say the prayer without the beads, y’know.

Mary is a real person, not a graven image, to whom Christ Himself gives honour as God’s commandment bids Him do, and whose requests He granted at Cana and continues to grant as the Kings of Israel did for their mothers (if you read Kings you’ll see this).

So we honour her too, we can have images of her just as we do of our families and friends (they’re called photographs), and we present our petitions and requests to Jesus and the Father through her since we can. It’s called intercessionary prayer. If I can ask you to present a prayer petition of mine to God, why not Mary?
 
Where has the catholic church offically interpreted this verse? We need to see how this passage can be made to say the church has not and cannot err. 😉
You are answering my question with a question, ja4. how can the Church be the pillar and bulwark of the Truth if she does not know what the Truth is?

Forget the Catholic interpretation, just give yours!
You again misunderstand what i’m saying. What i’m saying is that what is not grounded in the scriptrues such as Mary’s supposed sinlessness, would be speculation since God never revealed such a thing and would come from the minds of men.
Clearly it has not been revealed to you, and I accept that.
"The unspiritual man does not receive the gifts of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned."1 Cor 2:14

Perhaps in time it will.

What you said was that anything not written in the scriptures was the speculation of men. So, just for the sake of discussion, lets say that all the Marian doctrines are “speculations of men”. Why is this a problem for you? Does it interfere with your salvation? Do you think it interferes with the salvation of others? Supposing you were to tolerate others embracing these ideas? What would happen?
Does the catholic church bpatize those with mental disorders? If so, why?
Do you think that people with mental disorders should not be allowed to be saved?
 
guanophore;3579505]
Originally Posted by justasking4
Where has the catholic church offically interpreted this verse? We need to see how this passage can be made to say the church has not and cannot err.
guanophore
You are answering my question with a question, ja4. how can the Church be the pillar and bulwark of the Truth if she does not know what the Truth is?
Forget the Catholic interpretation, just give yours!
This passage does not teach the church cannot err but that the church is to be the support of the truth. This “truth” that Paul is referring to in which the church is to support is found in the next verse which reads:
By common confession, great is the mystery of godliness:He who was revealed in the flesh,Was vindicated in the Spirit,Seen by angels,Proclaimed among the nations,Believed on in the world,Taken up in glory.

Quote:
Originally Posted by justasking4
You again misunderstand what i’m saying. What i’m saying is that what is not grounded in the scriptrues such as Mary’s supposed sinlessness, would be speculation since God never revealed such a thing and would come from the minds of men.
guanophore
Clearly it has not been revealed to you, and I accept that.
"The unspiritual man does not receive the gifts of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned."1 Cor 2:14
This has nothing to do with this passage. What you think you discern is not from the mind of God for if it was you would have the scriptures to support it. Rather, it is a teaching that nullifies the scriptures since it never ever speaks of such a thing.
Perhaps in time it will.
I can always use more insight into the Scriptures. 👍
What you said was that anything not written in the scriptures was the speculation of men. So, just for the sake of discussion, lets say that all the Marian doctrines are “speculations of men”. Why is this a problem for you? Does it interfere with your salvation? Do you think it interferes with the salvation of others? Supposing you were to tolerate others embracing these ideas? What would happen?
It certainly does interfere with their growth in Christ. Paul was admantly against these kinds of teachings as were the other apostles. In I Corthinians 10:3 it warns of these dangers of being decieved when Paul writes: But I am afraid that, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, your minds will be led astray from the simplicity and purity of devotion to Christ.

Secondly, false beliefs lead to false practices. Do you think that some devotees of Mary goes beyond even what the catholic church teaches?
If so, what has it done about it?
Quote:
Originally Posted by justasking4
Does the catholic church bpatize those with mental disorders? If so, why?
guanophore
Do you think that people with mental disorders should not be allowed to be saved?
Yes. However, do they need to be baptized to be saved as if pouring water on them or dunking someone who does not understand really save them as if there is some special power in the water to do so?
 
This passage does not teach the church cannot err but that the church is to be the support of the truth. This “truth” that Paul is referring to in which the church is to support is found in the next verse which reads:
By common confession, great is the mystery of godliness:He who was revealed in the flesh,Was vindicated in the Spirit,Seen by angels,Proclaimed among the nations,Believed on in the world,Taken up in glory.

Quote:

This has nothing to do with this passage. What you think you discern is not from the mind of God for if it was you would have the scriptures to support it. Rather, it is a teaching that nullifies the scriptures since it never ever speaks of such a thing.

I can always use more insight into the Scriptures. 👍

It certainly does interfere with their growth in Christ. Paul was admantly against these kinds of teachings as were the other apostles. In I Corthinians 10:3 it warns of these dangers of being decieved when Paul writes: But I am afraid that, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, your minds will be led astray from the simplicity and purity of devotion to Christ.

Secondly, false beliefs lead to false practices. Do you think that some devotees of Mary goes beyond even what the catholic church teaches?
If so, what has it done about it?

Yes. However, do they need to be baptized to be saved as if pouring water on them or dunking someone who does not understand really save them as if there is some special power in the water to do so?
i guess you are not baptised then…according to you baptism does nothing so it is an useless practice.but you know the commands of Jesus …make diciples of all nations and baptise them…if baptism is unnecessary for salvation why did Jeus bother saying to baptise the peoples.
 
Jesus was SinLESS and yet, he asked to be baptized by John in the River Jordan.

So, why can’t Mary be SinLESS? She gave birth to the Savior!
 
Part 1

What is this “Tradition” that you refer to? If its not found in the scriptures then it has to come originally from the mind of a man. In regards to this topic we both agree that the scriptures do not even come close to mentioning it. Not even implicitedly.

Your comparison between the doctrine of the HS being God and Mary are not comparable. We know the HS is God by the various texts of Scripture that does not require us to take verses out of context. When we look for the support for Mary being sinless there is not only statements in Scripture for it but it also nullifies other scriptrues that tell us all men born of human parents are sinners.

I can understand the church over a short period of time coming to a proper understanding of the doctrine of God i.e. the deity of Christ. What has happened in the catholic church is that it no longer liimits itself to the scriptures in it doctrines but goes far beyond them. This is what has happened to Mary. It has added so much to her in catholic doctrine that its not the same Mary we see portrayed in the Scriptures.

This still does not mean a church cannot err in doctrine. Being the support and foundation of the truth does not mean it cannot err. Secondly, the Scriptures warn of false teachers coming into the church itself and decieving.

What Trraditon outside of the NT says the she was sinless? To whom was this “revealed” to?

John 8:46–“Which one of you convicts Me of sin? If I speak truth, why do you not believe Me?
This tradition that I refer to is Sacred Tradition, which existed before the New Testament texts were ever written, and from which these texts have emerged. But these texts alone are not definitive. Only the Church, from which the scriptures come from, can authoritatively interpret them for future generations in light of her Tradition. The Church may or may not have perceived Mary as sinless during apostolic time. But the scriptures do support what could have been a revelation to the Church in the early second century. God’s revelation is not directed to us by Scripture alone. For it is primarily directed to us through the Church established by Jesus Christ. Without the Church and her Tradition, God’s revelation would remain hidden from us. There would not even be a compilation of New Testament texts to begin with.

Do you believe that the Holy Spirit is God as defined by the Catholic Church? The Scriptures alone do not make it perfectly clear. It’s easy for you to say so, now that the Church has made it definitively clear. You’re arguing from hindsight bias. The Jews perceive the Holy Spirit differently. He is not a distinct Person in a Trinity of three Persons in one God. So the pronoun wouldn’t apply to the Holy Spirit in Judaism. If the Church is correct in her understanding of the ontological diety of the Spirit, she must be correct in her understanding about the sinlessness of Mary. If not, there would have been no reason for our Lord to send us his Paraclete to lead us in all truth.

Paul tells us that all human beings are implicated in original sin. If Mary were not implicated along with the rest of us, her Immaculate Conception would not have been necessary. Of course, Jesus was not implicated, for he is a divine Person. I’m afraid Scripture does not tell us that Mary’s Immaculate Conception and personal sinlessness was absolutely impossible. On the contrary, Scripture reveals why God deemed it fitting that a sinless woman should conceive and bear his sinless Only-begotten Son. God does not relate to sin and he did not create it. It’s something not of God that freely came about.

You would like the Church to come to a proper understanding of God and the deity of Christ, because it is a fundamental belief of yours or your denomination or congregation. But to justify the legitimacy of your particular religious persuasion apart from the historic Christian faith, which is embodied in the Catholic Church, you attempt to show that the Church has strayed from the truth in her teachings. You pick items that you believe are not necessary for our salvation to accommodate your prejudice against the Church.

Did the Church limit herself to the New Testament texts before they were eventually compliled after a century? I hardly think so. She limited herself to Sacred Tradition until then, based on an enlightened understanding of the Old Testament texts and their interpretation.

The Church’s understanding of Mary’s sinlessness is supported by Scripture: “Hail, full of grace. The Lord is with you” (Lk 1,28). Paul teaches us that grace is an antidote to sin. Mary was always in a state of grace and thus sinless. Where do the Gospels suggest that Mary was sinful? 🤷

There is no Sacred Tradition outside Sacred Scripture. For Scripture comes from Tradition. Scripture is infallible because Tradition is infallible. Isaiah 7, 14 refers to the Virgin Birth of Christ according to Tradition, although the Jews disagree, and Isaiah was not primarily referring to the Nativity of our Lord.

In John 8, 47 Jesus adds, “Whoever belongs to God hears the words of God.” Having had his attention drawn to his mother by a woman in the crowd who extolled Mary for having given birth to the Messiah, Jesus further alluded to his mother when he said, “Rather blessed are those who hear the word of God and keep it” (Luke 11, 27-28).

“Most blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb” (Luke 1, 42).

Pax vobiscum
Good Fella :cool:
 
This passage does not teach the church cannot err but that the church is to be the support of the truth.
You still have not explained how the Church can support the Truth when the Church does not know what it is. :confused:
This has nothing to do with this passage. What you think you discern is not from the mind of God for if it was you would have the scriptures to support it. Rather, it is a teaching that nullifies the scriptures since it never ever speaks of such a thing.
What would would happen if you were to just accept this, ja4? If you believe that the Doctrines of Mary are from “the mind of man”, and you see that Catholics hold them, can you not find it in your heart to tolerate that?

Scripture does not support that it is the final authority, either, but you believe this man made doctrine. You also do not believe that this man made doctrine “nullifies” the scripture. You have affirmed that there are many teachings and traditions that you accept that are not found in scripture, such as observing the Sabbath on Sundays, and using the word “Trinity” to describe the godhead. :confused:
I can always use more insight into the Scriptures. 👍
Have you considered another forum? Most of what you get here will be Catholic, and since you believe the Catholic Church has fallen into falsehoods, would it not better serve you to go to a bible based website?
It certainly does interfere with their growth in Christ.
Please explain where the Marian Doctrines interfere with growth in Christ. :confused:
Paul was admantly against these kinds of teachings as were the other apostles. In I Corthinians 10:3 it warns of these dangers of being decieved when Paul writes: But I am afraid that, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, your minds will be led astray from the simplicity and purity of devotion to Christ.
Apparently you believe that believing and practicing devotion to Mary results in being led astray from Christ. If you believe this, and you do not practice any Marian devotions as a result, how is it that you cannot leave others in peace who choose to honor the Mother of Jesus?
Secondly, false beliefs lead to false practices. Do you think that some devotees of Mary goes beyond even what the catholic church teaches?
If you are concerned about this, have you considered finding these people, and sharing the gospel of ja4 with them? Have you considered that CAF is not the appropriate venue for this?
If so, what has it done about it?
It seems that you believe you have been appointed by God to do something with people who don’t practice their Christian faith in the same way that you do. 🤷
Yes. However, do they need to be baptized to be saved as if pouring water on them or dunking someone who does not understand really save them as if there is some special power in the water to do so?
The special power present in baptism comes from Jesus, ja4. Your statement here indicates that you have not understood the Scriptures:

" And now why do you wait? Rise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on his name.’ Acts 22:15-16

In baptism, a candidate calls upon the Name of the Lord, and his sins are washed away by the blood of Jesus.

"… that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, Eph 5:26

It is required that the participants in baptism understand this, otherwise, it is not a valid baptism.
 
Jesus was SinLESS and yet, he asked to be baptized by John in the River Jordan.

So, why can’t Mary be SinLESS? She gave birth to the Savior!
A couple of reasons. The scriptures do not make an exception for her. For Mary to be sinless we would need to see some indication in her birth that she was somehow kept from inheriting the sin of Adam—see Romans 5:12. The Scriptures never mention her birth in any fashion.
Secondly, those that knew her never mention it. If anyone would have known this to be a fact then we should see some indications from them. Keep in mind that there are 27 books of the NT written over a span of decades and not one mentions it.
Thirdly, it would not be required in incarnation for her to be sinless.
 
A couple of reasons. The scriptures do not make an exception for her. For Mary to be sinless we would need to see some indication in her birth that she was somehow kept from inheriting the sin of Adam—see Romans 5:12. The Scriptures never mention her birth in any fashion.
Secondly, those that knew her never mention it. If anyone would have known this to be a fact then we should see some indications from them. Keep in mind that there are 27 books of the NT written over a span of decades and not one mentions it.
Thirdly, it would not be required in incarnation for her to be sinless.
Why do the scriptures explicitly need to make an exception for her? When they say ALL of Jerusalem went to hear Jesus they don’t list by name the individuals who didn’t, do they?

As for not mentioning it - Paul doesn’t mention any of the Gospels in his letters, neither do the Gospels (which were written after Paul’s letters) mention his Epistles. Does that mean either Gospels or Epistles aren’t scripture and aren’t God’s Truth?
 
LilyM;3582771]
Originally Posted by justasking4
A couple of reasons. The scriptures do not make an exception for her. For Mary to be sinless we would need to see some indication in her birth that she was somehow kept from inheriting the sin of Adam—see Romans 5:12. The Scriptures never mention her birth in any fashion.
Secondly, those that knew her never mention it. If anyone would have known this to be a fact then we should see some indications from them. Keep in mind that there are 27 books of the NT written over a span of decades and not one mentions it.
Thirdly, it would not be required in incarnation for her to be sinless.
LilyM
Why do the scriptures explicitly need to make an exception for her? When they say ALL of Jerusalem went to hear Jesus they don’t list by name the individuals who didn’t, do they?
In this case we would not necessarily understand “all” of Jerusalem to mean every last person. In Romans 5:12 we do since Paul is making a universal statement that is true of all men and women since all would trace their origin to Adam.
As for not mentioning it - Paul doesn’t mention any of the Gospels in his letters, neither do the Gospels (which were written after Paul’s letters) mention his Epistles. Does that mean either Gospels or Epistles aren’t scripture and aren’t God’s Truth?
No for your last question. For scripture to be scripture does not require Paul to mention it.
My point is that if such an important doctrine were true we should expect to see clear grounding for it in Scripture and that is not the case at all.
 
In this case we would not necessarily understand “all” of Jerusalem to mean every last person. In Romans 5:12 we do since Paul is making a universal statement that is true of all men and women since all would trace their origin to Adam.
So was Jesus, through her, descended from Adam. Clearly, then, Paul DOESN’T and never did mean literally all descendants of Adam, agreed?

Again, assuming there’s at least one exception, why does that exception or any other have to be specifically listed? If Jesus were not mentioned specifically by Paul as being sinless would we then have to presume He was sinful? Why?
No for your last question. For scripture to be scripture does not require Paul to mention it.
My point is that if such an important doctrine were true we should expect to see clear grounding for it in Scripture and that is not the case at all.
But it’s not at all clear from any scripture that each of the Gospels and Epistles individually actually is scripture in the first place - by your logic the idea that they are should be backed up elsewhere in scripture for it to be true. Since you won’t believe information from the ECFs or any other source about Mary why do you trust them on this or any other topic?
 
In this case we would not necessarily understand “all” of Jerusalem to mean every last person. In Romans 5:12 we do since Paul is making a universal statement that is true of all men and women since all would trace their origin to Adam.

No for your last question. For scripture to be scripture does not require Paul to mention it.
My point is that if such an important doctrine were true we should expect to see clear grounding for it in Scripture and that is not the case at all.
Mary is called “full of grace”

jesus is called “full of grace” not almost full, not pretty much filled, but FULL of grace.

Mary could not be full of grace and at the same moment have sin. impossible.
 
Again, I may point to the word “All”-the Latin ‘Pas’-as used in Romans 15:14;
“I myself am satisfied about you, my brethren, that you yourselves are full of goodness, filled with all knowledge, and able to instruct one another.”

So are you saying that the Christians in the Roman church have a complete knowledge without exception? Are you saying that they know everything absolutely?

The Latin Pas is a word used to describe “of many kinds, or of many sorts.” This actual meaning help make the scripture make more sense.

Did the Roman Christians have ALL knowledge?

No.

Did they have knowledge of many kinds?

I would say that is more likely.

The proper translation of the passage would read: "“I myself am satisfied about you, my brethren, that you yourselves are full of goodness, filled with many types and many sorts of knowledge, and able to instruct one another.”

The same word ‘Pas’ is used in Romans 5:12. When understood in its proper Latin context the word ‘all’ cannot mean what you say it means.

It’s like saying “everyone was there at the dance tonight.” Does that mean that every single person in the world that exists was at that place? Of course not. I doubt a dance hall could hold 6 billion people.

It’s also like when someone 2000 years ago writes in a book “It’s raining cats and dogs.” 2000 years later following the way you interpret scripture you would have us believe that phrase to mean that cats and dogs were falling out of the sky like rain. When you take translations out of context you twist the true meaning of scripture.

This is why there must be an living authority to help set the boundaries for biblical interpretation. This confusion is why there exists a Teaching Authority in the Church.
 
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