All-loving God?

[Formosus]

If you want to use the shipwreck as a metaphor for the world and drowning as a metaphor for hell, God did created it. And by definition, God purposes everything since he knows everything.

Thank you for the discussion everyone. What I’m getting from all your answers is the general idea that Hell and Heaven really are very conceptual places, states of souls, and Hell is just regret. Is this the actual official teaching of the catholic church ? What about purgatory ?

I do not know what the catechism says exactly about Heaven and hell. I can just say the understanding I have garnered from reading the Church Fathers. Now, there can be multiple ways of saying essentially the same teaching, and so in one perspective Hell is a place of punishment God created to punish us for our sins. Perhaps this perspective is spiritually beneficial to some people who need it for their faith. Perhaps others rely on a more merciful outlook that hell is a state of our own choosing, based on our rejection of God’s Grace. That we cause our own pains in hell, either over our guilt at rejecting God, or a self imposed loneliness.

The Church has said clearly that purgatory is a state, not a place though. From a philosophic point of view, souls can’t really be in “a place” since they are bodiless. Some discussion of place could be considered in the resurrected life at the end of the ages, but not immediately after death.

 

[Dave_B]

From a philosophic point of view, souls can’t really be in “a place” since they are bodiless. Some discussion of place could be considered in the resurrected life at the end of the ages, but not immediately after death.

Why didnt Jesus say these places were symbolic, and not real? I guess he thought heaven and hell were real. Otherwise scaring people with talk of hell fire would just be plain cruel.

 

[Formosus]

Why didnt Jesus say these places were symbolic, and not real? I guess he thought heaven and hell were real. Otherwise scaring people with talk of hell fire would just be plain cruel.

I never said “symbolic.” Hell is a very real situation but it is the pain one causes to themselves. No one is sent to hell, people choose it. If one does not want to be with God, then why would a loving God force people to be with Him?

 

[Dave_B]

I never said “symbolic.” Hell is a very real situation but it is the pain one causes to themselves. No one is sent to hell, people choose it. If one does not want to be with God, then why would a loving God force people to be with Him?

How do you know all this? You talk in absolutes. Have you been there? Have you seen heaven and hell?

 

[R_C]

How do you know all this? You talk in absolutes. Have you been there? Have you seen heaven and hell?

Some have been given visual knowledge of heaven, purgatory, and hell - at least to the degree granted by God so that their life would be preserved, for nobody who is in this life can fully experience these places and remain alive. These are called private revelations. The oldest witness we know of is St. Paul, and actually St. Stephen martyr before him.

 

[Linux]

The honesty comes in admitting that I do fear the manner of my death - to die violently and in pain - and, for that matter, suddenly, without the opportunity to finalise my affairs - is certainly something to be dreaded, and avoided if at all possible. This is part of the survival instinct. What I don’t fear is the fact of death itself, of my own nonexistence. And this is what religious belief attempts to subvert, by introducing the idea that our consciousness could persist for all eternity.

Fear of death itself is apart of your survival instinct as well as the fear of suffering. A shot gun to the face is unlikely to cause you to experience any pain, but it will bring your life to an end. If it was not in human nature to fear non-existence, the existence of afterlife beliefs would not make any sense since they would have no psychological effect. Your supposed lack of fear is odd.

No, it’s not obvious - not when one is called to reject the beauty and allure of worldly things in favour of “spiritual” benefits,

I don’t understand what you are saying here. I have never rejected the beauty of the world in-order to become a Christian. I was inspired by the beauty, the order, and my moral experience of the world, to become a Christian because my experience of Christian truth made sense of my worldly experiences. Metaphysical naturalism does not.

 

[Formosus]

How do you know all this? You talk in absolutes. Have you been there? Have you seen heaven and hell?

No but I have faith in the matter. You are on a Christian forum asking Christians for their views on the matter, do you expect me to qualify everything I say on matters concerning faith as matters of faith?

 

[Fomalhaut]

I never said “symbolic.” Hell is a very real situation but it is the pain one causes to themselves. No one is sent to hell, people choose it. If one does not want to be with God, then why would a loving God force people to be with Him?

There are plenty of religions claiming that if we don’t follow their rules, we are going to Hell. If there actually is a God and a Hell, the fact that I get in Heaven or Hell is mainly the result of chance. If God is catholic and I was born in a muslim country, there is a VERY slim chance I am going to convert. So I’m doomed.

 

[Linux]

There are plenty of religions claiming that if we don’t follow their rules, we are going to Hell. If there actually is a God and a Hell, the fact that I get in Heaven or Hell is mainly the result of chance. If God is catholic and I was born in a muslim country, there is a VERY slim chance I am going to convert. So I’m doomed.

Its simply not true that people go to hell because they happen to be in the wrong religion or hold views that are heretical. There is such a thing called invisible ignorance and the Catholic church acknowledges the possibility that people for no fault of their own fail to recognize Christianity as being true. The fret of hell applies to those who willfully in full knowledge act or say things that are contrary to Gods will.

 

[Fomalhaut]

Its simply not true that people go to hell because they happen to be in the wrong religion or hold views that are heretical. There is such a thing called invisible ignorance and the Catholic church acknowledges the possibility that people for no fault of their own fail to recognize Christianity as being true. The fret of hell applies to those who willfully in full knowledge act or say things that are contrary to Gods will.

Then what is the point of catholicism ? If you have as much chance to go to Heaven if you’re not catholic, why teach it ?

 

[Blinky]

“Invincible ignorance” is the exception and not the rule.

 

[Fomalhaut]

“Invincible ignorance” is the exception and not the rule.

Could you elaborate ? When does it apply, when does it not apply ? Before Christ, nobody was a christian. A maori in the 10th century had no idea who he was. What about them ? And for the people who already heard of Jesus, it strongly depends on how they heard of it. Does having a friend telling you that christianity is super cool counts ? Do you need to heard of it from a priest ? Should you try to read the bible to consider you were given a fair chance to convert ?

 

[fhansen]

Hello,

I creating this thread after having read a post on another thread ( the Big Bang one ) and I didn’t want to further derail the dicussion there. Here is the post:

I have a problem with that argument. It’s the good ol’ Pascal argument: why would you risk an eternity in hell ? My problem here is that sounds like a threat. When I read or hear people using that when trying to convert an atheist, I always picture them as a medieval crazy old preacher yelling threats about hell.

To the people agreeing with the post: what do you think can be achieved here ? Do you think a conversion out of fear is a good thing ? Would this kind of faith be sincere ? God is supposed to be an all-loving father, he punishes us because he loves us, etc. What would you think of a father trying to be loved by his children threatening them to lock them in a dark closet if they don’t ?

Moreover, I have an issue with Hell. Parents punish children because they love them: it’s for their own good, to teach them lessons. That way, they can do better choices later and have a better life. But eternal suffering…? That can’t be a lesson about not believing in God: I wouldn’t be able to apply it, ever. God creates a soul, allow it to walk around for ~80 years, and after that, if it didn’t make the right choice, he sends that soul to endure pain and horrible tortures for eternity ?

It sounds really extreme and unfair.

Hell is the choice. Hell is simply the absence of God. To adamantly reject God is to place cold, selfish pride over love. And the natural consequence is hell.

 

[Linux]

Then what is the point of catholicism ? If you have as much chance to go to Heaven if you’re not catholic, why teach it ?

Becuase for a Catholic it is the truth, and Catholic morality dictates that one ought to teach what is true becuase it is good for human persons to know about the love of God simply for the sake of love itself. God wants to share his love with us, he wants a relationship. To not teach the faith would be a selfish act and therefore a sin. Spreading knowledge of the faith is a moral obligation in itself becuase it is good in and of itself; not because a person will go to hell if we don’t.

It has never been a doctrine of Catholism that if somebody does not know about God they will go to hell.

That is ridiculous. I do not support that kind of Christianity.

 

[Linux]

Becuase for a Catholic it is the truth, and Catholic morality dictates that one ought to teach what is true becuase it is good for human persons to know about the love of God simply for the sake of love itself. God wants to share his love with us, he wants a relationship. To not teach the faith would be a selfish act and therefore a sin. Spreading knowledge of the faith is a moral obligation in itself becuase it is good in and of itself; not because a person will go to hell if we don’t.

It has never been a doctrine of Catholism that if somebody does not know about God they will go to hell.

That is ridiculous. I do not support that kind of Christianity.

However, when you die and come to face God, you will know the truth, and whether you receive the beatific vision or not will depend on whether or not you desire in your heart to be a servant of love when given that knowledge. If you do not desire to be with God, you will not receive the beatific vision. You will then be left in a state that lacks heaven forever.

 

[Blinky]

Could you elaborate ? When does it apply, when does it not apply ? Before Christ, nobody was a christian. A maori in the 10th century had no idea who he was. What about them ? And for the people who already heard of Jesus, it strongly depends on how they heard of it. Does having a friend telling you that christianity is super cool counts ? Do you need to heard of it from a priest ? Should you try to read the bible to consider you were given a fair chance to convert ?

God knows the hearts and minds of those who have never learned of Him. They are at His Mercy, and we should pray for them.

Your participation on this forum shows that you are neither ignorant of Jesus nor of the salvation that comes through His Church. Please learn as much as you can while you can.

 

[Fomalhaut]

God knows the hearts and minds of those who have never learned of Him. They are at His Mercy, and we should pray for them.

Your participation on this forum shows that you are neither ignorant of Jesus nor of the salvation that comes through His Church. Please learn as much as you can while you can.

Thanks, but I’m still intrigued. The core of my questions is: do you actually go to Hell if you don’t follow the catholic set of rules ? I understand that for people who never head of Jesus, it doesn’t apply, but for me, for example ? I’m reading the Bible, sit in churches, learn about religious dogmas, but I’m not catholic. If I die as an agnostic, will I go to Hell ?

 

[FrBryan]

The core of my questions is: do you actually go to Hell if you don’t follow the catholic set of rules ?

What we’re trying to say is that it simply isn’t that simple. It isn’t about following a set of rules: “Do this and this and this and you go to heaven, but do this and this and this and you go to hell.” That’s not how it works.

“Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law?” Jesus said to him: “ ‘You shall love the Lord your God from all your heart, and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ This is the greatest and first commandment. But the second is similar to it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself’ (Mt. 22:36-39 CPDV)

God desires a relationship of love with us. He loves us, He created us and holds us in existence, and He pours out His grace upon us. All humans have an obligation to return the love that God has given them. If someone chooses not to do so, then they have willingly separated themselves from love itself, from goodness itself, and from truth itself. This is what hell is, how that is experienced subjectively is unknown, but it is compared to “fire,” and “the wailing and grinding of teeth.”

Love, and do what you will. -St. Augustine

Love sets us free. True love does not limit us, it empowers us, because love only desires to do the good and never to do the evil. Of course, we never live up to this in this life, but we can strive towards it.

English poet Francis Thompson wrote a poem entitled “The Hound of Heaven.” In it he compares God to a hound. Since God loves us, he is always seeking us, always hunting us. I pray that you will remain open to the truth, to the relationship that God wishes to have with you, and that one day the Hound of Heaven catches you.

Our Lady, Seat of Wisdom,
Pray for us.

 

[cap76]

Real faith is not built on probability.

Your statement is so contrary to popular beliefs on faith. But praise be to God, such popular beliefs are wrong and you are so right! I wish more Christians understood this.

 

[cap76]

I’m reading the Bible, sit in churches, learn about religious dogmas, but I’m not catholic. If I die as an agnostic, will I go to Hell ?

Friend, you either need to pay more attention or you’re just learning from the wrong catholic sources!

John 14.6, “Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.”"