All-loving God?

[Fomalhaut]

Okay, this is all a bit confusing. I’m having different answers, with quite mysterious wording for some of them.

I am not refusing God. I’m completely open to the idea, I saw how faith saved the life of a friend of mine (first catholic, now evangelist christian). The answer to “is there a God” is one of the most interesting questions one could ask, as well as “are we the only intelligent life in the universe” or “where do we come from”. And religious people tell the answer to the first question is easily at reach, if one let God into his heart. So I’m trying. I called him and listened. I’ll keep doing it, but no answer from above for now. It really isn’t an aggressive scientific experiment in which I would summon God to show himself, more like a genuine “Hello ?”.

In the meantime, I live my life. I have a girlfriend and have sex with her even though we are not married. I was never baptized and (obviously) never confessed. However, I try to be the best man I can, in every aspects of my life. I like to think I’m an honest man, open-minded and I try to avoid greed and envy. It’s more like a buddhist philosophy. And I’m happy, very happy.

So I am not refusing God, yet if He exists, He decided not to reveal Himself to me. I don’t have a relationship with Him, I remain in my ignorance about his existence.

I’m reading the Bible, sit in churches, learn about religious dogmas, but I’m not catholic. If I die as an agnostic, will I go to Hell ?
Friend, you either need to pay more attention or you’re just learning from the wrong catholic sources!

John 14.6, “Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.”"

I have no idea what you are trying to tell me.

 

[OxygenMan]

Okay, this is all a bit confusing. I’m having different answers, with quite mysterious wording for some of them.

I am not refusing God. I’m completely open to the idea, I saw how faith saved the life of a friend of mine (first catholic, now evangelist christian). The answer to “is there a God” is one of the most interesting questions one could ask, as well as “are we the only intelligent life in the universe” or “where do we come from”. And religious people tell the answer to the first question is easily at reach, if one let God into his heart. So I’m trying. I called him and listened. I’ll keep doing it, but no answer from above for now. It really isn’t an aggressive scientific experiment in which I would summon God to show himself, more like a genuine “Hello ?”.

In the meantime, I live my life. I have a girlfriend and have sex with her even though we are not married. I was never baptized and (obviously) never confessed. However, I try to be the best man I can, in every aspects of my life. I like to think I’m an honest man, open-minded and I try to avoid greed and envy. It’s more like a buddhist philosophy. And I’m happy, very happy.

So I am not refusing God, yet if He exists, He decided not to reveal Himself to me. I don’t have a relationship with Him, I remain in my ignorance about his existence.

I have no idea what you are trying to tell me.

I can’t blame you for being confused about the whole issue. There are times in my life, even now, when everything about the world feels so unknowable that it seems like it will crash down on me. The only advice I can offer you is to not give up. Keep seeking out God, keep seeking out answers. It is only through the type of genuine, open questioning that you engage in that you can ever come to know God on a firm basis. I wish I could offer more help about the whole thing, but I’m rather bad with words. Even if I have the thoughts, I can’t express them. But keep looking for God. I will pray tonight that He will reveal Himself to you.

 

[Sair]

Fear of death itself is apart of your survival instinct as well as the fear of suffering. A shot gun to the face is unlikely to cause you to experience any pain, but it will bring your life to an end. If it was not in human nature to fear non-existence, the existence of afterlife beliefs would not make any sense since they would have no psychological effect. Your supposed lack of fear is odd.

That would fall under the fear of ‘sudden, unprepared demise’, certainly; but all things considered, it is less to be feared than long-drawn-out suffering or a catastrophically violent death. If you really think about it, what is there to be feared in nonexistence? It’s not as if you’ll be around to experience it!

I don’t understand what you are saying here. I have never rejected the beauty of the world in-order to become a Christian. I was inspired by the beauty, the order, and my moral experience of the world, to become a Christian because my experience of Christian truth made sense of my worldly experiences. Metaphysical naturalism does not.

Then here is where you and I fundamentally differ, it seems. Reconciling Christian teaching with my experience of the world ultimately made much less sense to me - and took far more effort and was productive of far more cognitive dissonance - than simply accepting the world as it is, in a naturalistic sense.

 

[tonyrey]

If I die as an agnostic, will I go to Hell ?

What counts is not what we profess but whether we assist those in distress…

 

[tonyrey]

Then here is where you and I fundamentally differ, it seems. Reconciling Christian teaching with my experience of the world ultimately made much less sense to me - and took far more effort and was productive of far more cognitive dissonance - than simply accepting the world as it is, in a naturalistic sense.

Accepting injustice - as you believe everything is naturalistic?

 

[tonyrey]

The honesty comes in admitting that I do fear the manner of my death - to die violently and in pain - and, for that matter, suddenly, without the opportunity to finalise my affairs - is certainly something to be dreaded, and avoided if at all possible. This is part of the survival instinct. What I don’t fear is the fact of death itself, of my own nonexistence. And this is what religious belief attempts to subvert, by introducing the idea that our consciousness could persist for all eternity.

“subvert” assumes religious belief in an afterlife is false…

And, indeed, by glorifying the horrific, torturous death of Christ and the martyrs, Christianity must hold out the hope of a perfect paradise in return - and in so doing, make all those who cannot rise to the occasion of martyrdom feel vaguely inadequate, either for lack of courage or lack of belief; or perhaps just lack of opportunity.

Christianity does not hold out the hope of a perfect paradise in return nor is it glorifying horrific, torturous death. It glorifies the unselfish love which inspired and inspires Jesus and saints of every kind to accept torture and death to liberate others from evil.

No, it’s not obvious - not when one is called to reject the beauty and allure of worldly things in favour of “spiritual” benefits, whatever they might be. And the problem with looking at the world and seeing God is precisely this - you’re not looking at the world and seeing the world, but something imagined to be far beyond this world. The beauty and intricacy and wonder of the universe is extrapolated into an indication of the nature of God, and thus to have a meaning beyond itself, an importance beyond its own existence. No-one who looks at the world and imagines God is seeing the world for itself, in its own right, but only as the supporting cast for a drama played out beyond the world.

With equal facility and far more cogency one can say that the beauty and intricacy and wonder of the universe are powerful evidence of divine wisdom and love rather than a futile farce composed of meaningless accidents…

 

[R_C]

In the meantime, I live my life. I have a girlfriend and have sex with her even though we are not married. I was never baptized and (obviously) never confessed. However, I try to be the best man I can, in every aspects of my life. I like to think I’m an honest man, open-minded and I try to avoid greed and envy. It’s more like a buddhist philosophy. And I’m happy, very happy.

So I am not refusing God, yet if He exists, He decided not to reveal Himself to me. I don’t have a relationship with Him, I remain in my ignorance about his existence.

Are you truly happy? Or is it just the fact that you live in a comfortable place, indulge in a comfortable relationship?

This is not true happiness, but shallow vanity. And it will pass away rather quickly: sic transit gloria mundi.

It is good that you try to be the best man you can, that you try to be a honest, open-minded man that avoids greed and envy. That’s the bare minimum, primum, non nocere…but it’s a beginning.

Yet life being what it is, and the world being what it is, this hedonistic way of living won’t last long. Trouble may arise. Heartaches may occur. Poverty may strike. At that point, the wishful thinking that gave you the idea of being your own master, your own Lord, will vanish for a darker perspective: that of being alone, suffering for no reason at all, and seemingly with no way out.

The issue here is not that this has to happen for you to convert. The issue is that it may. And this is when the thoughtful, smart person starts thinking and says: if that were to happen, would these values I live by support me? If not, then, are they true, solid, foundations for a life, or are they empty ghosts that are a source of a sequence of momentary states of well-being that in no way constitutes what we term life?

In fact, our actions tell a great deal about our relationship with the living God: by my works I shall show you my faith, says one apostle, and another adds: even if I sell everything and give it to the poor and sacrifice my body, and even if I have a faith that can move mountains, and yet I have no charity, I am nothing.

Charity has one source. And that source has spoke to us, and has fully revealed itself through a Scripture and a Tradition that have shaped the world we live in, its values, its laws, its very essence. The very idea of having to be honest, of having to sacrifice something to help others, of being faithful to one companion, is rooted in it. And yes, every human being has the capability of living a good life and doing what is charitable - which is why the Church does acknowledge salvation by invincible ignorance of Christ and his gospel - however we are called to be something more than good men. We are called to do something more than be happy and live a good life. In fact, we are called to attain a perfection that is seemingly impossible in the eyes of men. And we have been given the means to reach it.

God, in fact, has revealed Himself to you, and He does so every day. “Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If you hear my voice and open the door, I will come in, and we will share a meal together as friends.” When you fall asleep hoping with almost certainty that you’ll wake up, when you look in the eyes of your loved one and feel loved, do you not feel grateful beyond words? Do you not sense that such hope, such love, has a greater source than ourselves? Are you not immediately aware that it is not the product of randomness? The living God is always by your side, not far away, but in your heart, and you do not seek Him by words or readings or by actions, nor by emptying yourself, nor by indulging in what feels pleasant, but by the simplicity of seeing the infinite Goodness that shines forth from every little good that you see or do.

When I converted, for a certain time my blindness was so lifted that the view of a small flower in the grass sufficed to make me cry of joy. I could see God shining through his creation, and I said to myself: truly God is in this place, and I did not know…how many times I stared at your artwork and spoke with you, yet I never knew you…I always thought that I was, and now I realize that in fact it is you who Are, and the fact that I am is the heart and fullness of our lifelong relationship: I belong to my beloved, and he belongs to me.

 

[tonyrey]

Are you truly happy? Or is it just the fact that you live in a comfortable place, indulge in a comfortable relationship?

This is not true happiness, but shallow vanity. And it will pass away rather quickly: sic transit gloria mundi.

It is good that you try to be the best man you can, that you try to be a honest, open-minded man that avoids greed and envy. That’s the bare minimum, primum, non nocere…but it’s a beginning.

Yet life being what it is, and the world being what it is, this hedonistic way of living won’t last long. Trouble may arise. Heartaches may occur. Poverty may strike. At that point, the wishful thinking that gave you the idea of being your own master, your own Lord, will vanish for a darker perspective: that of being alone, suffering for no reason at all, and seemingly with no way out.

The issue here is not that this has to happen for you to convert. The issue is that it may. And this is when the thoughtful, smart person starts thinking and says: if that were to happen, would these values I live by support me? If not, then, are they true, solid, foundations for a life, or are they empty ghosts that are a source of a sequence of momentary states of well-being that in no way constitutes what we term life?

In fact, our actions tell a great deal about our relationship with the living God: by my works I shall show you my faith, says one apostle, and another adds: even if I sell everything and give it to the poor and sacrifice my body, and even if I have a faith that can move mountains, and yet I have no charity, I am nothing.

Charity has one source. And that source has spoke to us, and has fully revealed itself through a Scripture and a Tradition that have shaped the world we live in, its values, its laws, its very essence. The very idea of having to be honest, of having to sacrifice something to help others, of being faithful to one companion, is rooted in it. And yes, every human being has the capability of living a good life and doing what is charitable - which is why the Church does acknowledge salvation by invincible ignorance of Christ and his gospel - however we are called to be something more than good men. We are called to do something more than be happy and live a good life. In fact, we are called to attain a perfection that is seemingly impossible in the eyes of men. And we have been given the means to reach it.

God, in fact, has revealed Himself to you, and He does so every day. “Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If you hear my voice and open the door, I will come in, and we will share a meal together as friends.” When you fall asleep hoping with almost certainty that you’ll wake up, when you look in the eyes of your loved one and feel loved, do you not feel grateful beyond words? Do you not sense that such hope, such love, has a greater source than ourselves? Are you not immediately aware that it is not the product of randomness? The living God is always by your side, not far away, but in your heart, and you do not seek Him by words or readings or by actions, nor by emptying yourself, nor by indulging in what feels pleasant, but by the simplicity of seeing the infinite Goodness that shines forth from every little good that you see or do.

When I converted, for a certain time my blindness was so lifted that the view of a small flower in the grass sufficed to make me cry of joy. I could see God shining through his creation, and I said to myself: truly God is in this place, and I did not know…how many times I stared at your artwork and spoke with you, yet I never knew you…I always thought that I was, and now I realize that in fact it is you who Are, and the fact that I am is the heart and fullness of our lifelong relationship: I belong to my beloved, and he belongs to me.

A superb post!