J
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Bookcat
Guest
God would Judge…(and of course the saying of Jesus would never justify committing mortal sin …he does not want us to “sacrifice our true life” for others…the ends do not justify the means…though as we noted…there can be “invincible ignorance of an erroneous conscience” that God would take into account)
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Cristiano
Guest
Who cares, once you are in hell you are in hell for eternity. There are not “tolerable hell” and “intolerable hell” there is only one and it is intolerable.
Your point makes much more sense for the temporal remission of repented mortal sin. That is where the difference in culpability makes sense.
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bmullins
Guest
It’s kind of like asking, do I want to burn for eternity a little… or burn for eternity a lot… My answer is I don’t want to burn for eternity at all.
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upbeatjonm
Guest
Yes, but look at the short confession lines, I think the majority of people in the world don’t go to confession at all, not just non-catholics. So, I think my analogy is still a good one. For my argument, I hypothetically admit the person sinned once, didn’t feel sorry for it or confess it, and still gets the same punishment as a mass murderer.A person who missed a Holy Day of Obligation in 1987 would have to skip confession for 25 years in order to end up in hell for that one sin.
Pax
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Bookcat
Guest
Those there.…in a way…
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Cristiano
Guest
I do not know how you define short but I rather get to the confession line 20 minutes before it starts than waiting at least a couple of hours to be done.
Texas, the land of sinners.
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JRKH
Guest
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Bookcat
Guest
Actually if I recall correctly can say that such is not suicide…different object.
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JRKH
Guest
Indeed -
and “sleeping with the enemy” in order to save lives…What object here??
Not arguing…Just curious to explore this a bit.
Peace
James
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Bookcat
Guest
No.
The possible moral objects of sexual relations are basically: “marital relations” (good)
“Fornication”, “adultery” or “prostitution” (which is a spin off of the either of the other two but adding the “pay” aspect). Such can never be done for any reason. The end does not justify the means. The intention or the circumstance can never change these intrinsically evil actions into a good.
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Bookcat
Guest
CCC:
1753 A good intention (for example, that of helping one’s neighbor) does not make behavior that is intrinsically disordered, such as lying and calumny, good or just. the end does not justify the means. Thus the condemnation of an innocent person cannot be justified as a legitimate means of saving the nation. On the other hand, an added bad intention (such as vainglory) makes an act evil that, in and of itself, can be good (such as almsgiving).39
1754 The circumstances, including the consequences, are secondary elements of a moral act. They contribute to increasing or diminishing the moral goodness or evil of human acts (for example, the amount of a theft). They can also diminish or increase the agent’s responsibility (such as acting out of a fear of death). Circumstances of themselves cannot change the moral quality of acts themselves; they can make neither good nor right an action that is in itself evil.
1753 A good intention (for example, that of helping one’s neighbor) does not make behavior that is intrinsically disordered, such as lying and calumny, good or just. the end does not justify the means. Thus the condemnation of an innocent person cannot be justified as a legitimate means of saving the nation. On the other hand, an added bad intention (such as vainglory) makes an act evil that, in and of itself, can be good (such as almsgiving).39
1754 The circumstances, including the consequences, are secondary elements of a moral act. They contribute to increasing or diminishing the moral goodness or evil of human acts (for example, the amount of a theft). They can also diminish or increase the agent’s responsibility (such as acting out of a fear of death). Circumstances of themselves cannot change the moral quality of acts themselves; they can make neither good nor right an action that is in itself evil.
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Speedypizza
Guest
First of all, I have no way of knowing if there are different levels of hell or not. It is possible that 2 people in hell will receive very different punishments. As far as the short confession lines, I for one believe that most of the people in the world are not going to heaven. I include in that most Catholics.
Over 90% of Catholics use birth control, that is a MORTAL sin. 70% of Catholics DO NOT believe in the real presence of our Lord on the alter. 75% of Catholics do not go to mass every week. Those people are probably not going to heaven. Now I HOPE that all of them will turn their lives around, and I HOPE that all people will make it into heaven. However I don’t think most will. It is my job to make sure I get there, and that I lead as many as I can there.
Pax
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JRKH
Guest
Then what is the “different object” in the grenade scenario? Leaping on the grenade is killing one’s self. Suicide. Suicide - Murder - is intrinsically evil - the end does not justify the means…No.
The possible moral objects of sexual relations are basically: “marital relations” (good)
“Fornication”, “adultery” or “prostitution” (which is a spin off of the either of the other two but adding the “pay” aspect). Such can never be done for any reason. The end does not justify the means. The intention or the circumstance can never change these intrinsically evil actions into a good.
I could offer that one “possible” moral object of sexual relations is to prevent someone from doing harm to others while you yourself suffer at the hands of an enemy.
If this is known by the parties - (The oppressor uses the threat of harm in order to gain sexual intercourse) then this is, in effect, rape.
In such a case, the oppressor is a rapist and the victim is not “fornicating” but is suffering torture for the purpose of protecting other lives…
It gets complicated…
BUT - Assuming the correctness of the information you have provided, and that the sexual relations cannot be justified under any circumstances -
and further assuming that the person (assume woman) knows this and believes that she could go to hell for this offense -
Then her agreeing - for the sole purpose of saving lives - would fall under the “laying down your life for another”…
This could be one of those situations where a well formed conscience needs to be relied on in order rightly discern.
Peace
James
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Bezant
Guest
Good question…it has never made sense to me.
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Bezant
Guest
What if he died the next day, after missing Mass?A person who missed a Holy Day of Obligation in 1987 would have to skip confession for 25 years in order to end up in hell for that one sin.
Pax
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JRKH
Guest
Depends on
a) Why he missed mass and
b) whether he was truly sorry he missed mass and
c) if he intended to get to confession as soon as he was able.
Peace
James
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Mark_Roberto
Guest
Yes and no. Yes, in the sense that a mortal sin is a mortal sin and will send you to hell if unrepented of before death irrespective of the type of mortal sin. No, in the sense that the mortal sin of murder probably carries more temporal punishment and required earthly reparation (like turning yourself into the police) than something like masturbation would. Also no because the sin of murder would carry a heavier penalty in hell than being sent to hell for the sin of masturbation.
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Bookcat
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JRKH
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Cat -
Agreed. We are off the thread so I will let the matter drop.
Thanks for your (name removed by moderator)ut. As always it is helpful.
Peace
James
Agreed. We are off the thread so I will let the matter drop.
Thanks for your (name removed by moderator)ut. As always it is helpful.
Peace
James
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