All mortal sin are the same?

[twoangels]

How is possible that the use of contraception in marriage after 6 children may be equivalent to a mortal sin such as abortion or not to go to Mass on Sundays, and extramarital affairs etc…

A sin is not either grave or not grave. There are different gravity of sins. However in discerning whether a sin is mortal or not, whether contraceptives is less grave than abortion doesn’t matter. You’re judging rotten apples to rotten oranges. Whether or not its an apple or an orange does not impact whether or not they both share the characteristic that they are rotten.

 

[upbeatjonm]

First of all, I have no way of knowing if there are different levels of hell or not. It is possible that 2 people in hell will receive very different punishments. As far as the short confession lines, I for one believe that most of the people in the world are not going to heaven. I include in that most Catholics.

Over 90% of Catholics use birth control, that is a MORTAL sin. 70% of Catholics DO NOT believe in the real presence of our Lord on the alter. 75% of Catholics do not go to mass every week. Those people are probably not going to heaven. Now I HOPE that all of them will turn their lives around, and I HOPE that all people will make it into heaven. However I don’t think most will. It is my job to make sure I get there, and that I lead as many as I can there.

Pax

I understand all of that. However, the OP from this thread asked the interesting question if all mortal sin are the same. I am simply saying that all sins receiving the same punishment doesn’t seem like perfect justice. The person in my example who’s only sin is missing a mass once in their life vs. a mass murderer. Seems they both get the same punishment because they disobeyed God, regardless of the severity in “our” human eyes. I know that God is just, and it is simply our lack of understanding that seems unjust. I was hoping to find out what others thought of this hypothetical situation.

 

[paperwight66]

. 70% of Catholics DO NOT believe in the real presence of our Lord on the alter. QUOTE]

Could you give your souce for this statement, please?

 

[JRKH]

I understand all of that. However, the OP from this thread asked the interesting question if all mortal sin are the same. I am simply saying that all sins receiving the same punishment doesn’t seem like perfect justice. The person in my example who’s only sin is missing a mass once in their life vs. a mass murderer. Seems they both get the same punishment because they disobeyed God, regardless of the severity in “our” human eyes. I know that God is just, and it is simply our lack of understanding that seems unjust. I was hoping to find out what others thought of this hypothetical situation.

From my experience, both personally and in discussion with others it seems that the big problem with the whole “Mortal Sin” issue is that most people overlook the very basic “First cause” (my term) of ALL Mortal sin.
That first cause is a deliberate rejection of God.

To explain - Look at the three requirements for Mortal sin…

1. Grave Matter
2. Full knowledge
3. Full consent of the will.

Usually the thing asked about is whether something is “grave matter”. Like in your example of someone missing mass once in his life…Grave Matter?? Sufficient to condemn?? This is looking at what is really the least of the three factors.
Our knowledge and consent are far more important to the gravity of a sin than is the specific matter.

The greatest commandment is that we Love God with our whole heart, mind, and strength. If we Love Him we seek to be near Him. To never offend Him. To obey the disciplines (commandments) that He provides for our own good.
Thus any sin knowingly and deliberately undertaken is a sin against that Love. It requires as a first cause that one reject God and by so rejecting placing one’s self outside of God’s protection - Outside the plan of salvation.

So - in trying to determine the severity of any sin - ask first, “Do I know this is a sin?”. If the answer is yes, then ask, “Why would I deliberately disobey God?” The answer to these questions goes a long way to determining your true position with God…

Peace
James

 

[Bookcat]

It requires as a first cause that one reject God and by so rejecting placing one’s self outside of God’s protection - Outside the plan of salvation.

I would not quite put it as you did in the larger post (for the grave matter is of particular importance for we sin in deliberate venial sin with full knowledge and deliberate consent but knowing something is venial matter)…but I understand what your getting at…

Also

Note: that the choice of the grave matter with the full knowledge and deliberate consent need not of course have as any intention “to reject God”. One can commit a mortal sin while still not wanting in a way to “reject God” or even thinking in those terms. Bl. Pope John Paul II in Veritatis Splendor gets into that it is the choice of the grave matter for whatever “reason” (one can see the doc for his words and explaination…such is from my memory of the jist).

I say this for some have been confused thinking that in order to commit a mortal sin one must “reject God” …(not what you are saying …but some have had this confusion …hence my little note).

 

[JRKH]

I would not quite put it as you did in the larger post (for the grave matter is of first importance for we sin in deliberate venial sin with full knowledge and deliberate consent but knowing something is venial matter)…but I understand what your getting at…

Thanks for the counterpoint Cat…It is good to have the differing perspectives which allow for greater understanding.
While I would never present such things as anything other than personal observation based on my own spiritual journey, I have to say that, to me, “full knowledge and deliberate consent”, elevate the gravity of a given matter. I’m not saying that it necessarily makes the given matter “Grave” in the mortal sin sense, but it certainly makes the sin more grave because of our willful deliberate decision to sin.

Note: that the choice of the grave matter with the full knowledge and deliberate consent need not of course have as any intention “to reject God”. One can commit a mortal sin while still not wanting in a way to “reject God” or even thinking in those terms. Bl. Pope John Paul II in Veritatis Splendor gets into that it is the choice of the grave matter for whatever “reason” (one can see the doc for his words and explanation…such is from my memory of the gist).

Again - Speaking from my own journey and personal understanding…Whether there is, “any intention to reject God”, this is precisely what is occurring.
If a man knowingly and willfully cheats on his wife, he is rejecting her. It doesn’t matter if that is his intent or not…That is the reality.
Likewise - in lesser things - If he knowingly and deliberately hurts her, the gravity of these acts are greater - more thoughtless and hurtful - than if he is just occasionally slipping while he tries to do better.
To me - knowledge and willful consent are more important in determining the gravity of a sin than is the matter.

Look at the many threads where people come and ask if this or that is mortal…
The responses will almost NEVER start out by weighing the gravity of the act. Rather they will immediately focus on the level of knowledge and consent…
So what does that tell us about the relative importance of the three conditions?

I say this for some have been confused thinking that in order to commit a mortal sin one must “reject God” …(not what you are saying …but some have had this confusion …hence my little note).

Understood…But I am saying that one must first reject God. They may not consciously or intellectually realize it, but in their heart that is what they are doing each time that they knowingly and deliberately sin.

Peace
James

 

[Bookcat]

Thanks for the counterpoint Cat…It is good to have the differing perspectives which allow for greater understanding.
While I would never present such things as anything other than personal observation based on my own spiritual journey, I have to say that, to me, “full knowledge and deliberate consent”, elevate the gravity of a given matter. I’m not saying that it necessarily makes the given matter “Grave” in the mortal sin sense, but it certainly makes the sin more grave because of our willful deliberate decision to sin.

Correct

Such is called “deliberate venial sin”.

The next evil down from mortal sin.

(though essentially different from mortal sin)

 

[Bookcat]

Whether there is, “any intention to reject God”, this is precisely what is occurring.

Correct…by the very (knowing) choice of the grave matter.

If a man knowingly and willfully cheats on his wife, he is rejecting her. It doesn’t matter if that is his intent or not…That is the reality. agreed

 

[Bookcat]

Look at the many threads where people come and ask if this or that is mortal…
The responses will almost NEVER start out by weighing the gravity of the act. Rather they will immediately focus on the level of knowledge and consent…
So what does that tell us about the relative importance of the three conditions?

Such is due to the fact that such is on the subjective side. We cannot change the matter itself that is grave…but what can enter in – that “makes it not a grave sin for me” is that lack of sufficient knowledge or consent. Such would not make that second and third aspects more important of course but rather --they are what is in our hands.

 

[Bookcat]

Understood…But I am saying that one must first reject God. They may not consciously or intellectually realize it, but in their heart that is what they are doing each time that they knowingly and deliberately sin.

It is not so much necessarily a “first” but rather what you noted – the “reality” of the very choice of the grave matter with the needed knowledge and consent. By choosing with full knowledge and deliberate consent to commit adultery or other lust…or murder…one by that choice --there is yes a rejection of God. But as you note they may not think of such…nor need they in order to commit a mortal sin.

 

[Bookcat]

Thanks for the counterpoint Cat…It is good to have the differing perspectives which allow for greater understanding.

A nice compact summary that I like to use:

The Compendium issued by Pope Benedict XVI

1. When does one commit a mortal sin?

1855-1861
1874

One commits a mortal sin when there are simultaneously present: grave matter, full knowledge, and deliberate consent. This sin destroys charity in us, deprives us of sanctifying grace, and, if unrepented, leads us to the eternal death of hell. It can be forgiven in the ordinary way by means of the sacraments of Baptism and of Penance or Reconciliation.

1. When does one commit a venial sin?

1862-1864
1875

One commits a venial sin, which is essentially different from a mortal sin, when the matter involved is less serious or, even if it is grave, when full knowledge or complete consent are absent. Venial sin does not break the covenant with God but it weakens charity and manifests a disordered affection for created goods. It impedes the progress of a soul in the exercise of the virtues and in the practice of moral good. It merits temporal punishment which purifies.

vatican.va/archive/compendium_ccc/documents/archive_2005_compendium-ccc_en.html

 

[JRKH]

Such is due to the fact that such is on the subjective side. We cannot change the matter itself that is grave…but what can enter in – that “makes it not a grave sin for me” is that lack of sufficient knowledge or consent. Such would not make that second and third aspects more important of course but rather --they are what is in our hands.

While I agree with most of what you offer, I disagree with the idea that, “We cannot change the matter itself that is grave…”
The reason is that, unlike in criminal law, we have no clearly defined cut-off point for what is a “misdemeanor” and a “felony” (venial or Mortal).
The most common response to the question “That is grave matter” is that grave matter a violation of the 10 commandments.
Yet it this always the case? Is willfully swiping a pen from a co-worker equally grave as robbing a bank?
We generally agree that it is not.
But in the case of criminal law there is a clear delineation, some dollar value, that separates the two. In the case of sin, there really is no clear delineation between what constitutes grave matter.
Sticking with the idea of theft, a poor man swiping a loaf of bread from a rich man is usually seen as venial sin. But a poor man swiping even less bread from another poor man is much more grave. Same “dollar amount” but much more grave sin.

So - To me - I don’t see any of the three conditions as being clearly delineated. What I do see is that any sin which will end in condemnation has to begin with the rejection of God, God’s Lordship, and God’s plan of salvation.

Perhaps a good biblical analogy is the phrase that we cannot serve two masters. That we will love one and despise the other or serve one and ignore the other. (Mt 6:24)
So - regardless of what we think we are doing or how we try to justify it, if we deliberately and willfully choose to sin (serve evil) then we cannot, at the same time, say that we are deliberately and willfully choosing to Love and serve God…At best we ignoring Him…at worst we are despising Him.

Peace
James

 

[Bookcat]

While I agree with most of what you offer, I disagree with the idea that, “We cannot change the matter itself that is grave…”
The reason is that, unlike in criminal law, we have no clearly defined cut-off point for what is a “misdemeanor” and a “felony” (venial or Mortal).
The most common response to the question “That is grave matter” is that grave matter a violation of the 10 commandments.

Then I would suggest that your understanding what I was saying there. The Church Teaches that certain matters are intrinsically grave matters --that is what I was getting at…murder, adultery, fornication, masturbation…things like these…they are grave always and everywhere. No intention or circumstance can make them not grave matters.

But yes while it can be said that violations of the 10 commandments can be grave matters…there are also many “venial matters” under the 10 commandments.

 

[Bookcat]

Sticking with the idea of theft, a poor man swiping a loaf of bread from a rich man is usually seen as venial sin. But a poor man swiping even less bread from another poor man is much more grave. Same “dollar amount” but much more grave sin.

So - To me - I don’t see any of the three conditions as being clearly delineated.

Such may or may not be actually “theft”…but yes there is parvity (smallness) of matter in the area of theft…(though I will note that theft is a bit more complicated…but that for another day).

 

[Bookcat]

Perhaps a good biblical analogy is the phrase that we cannot serve two masters. That we will love one and despise the other or serve one and ignore the other. (Mt 6:24)
So - regardless of what we think we are doing or how we try to justify it, if we deliberately and willfully choose to sin (serve evil) then we cannot, at the same time, say that we are deliberately and willfully choosing to Love and serve God…At best we ignoring Him…at worst we are despising Him.

The choice of mortal sin is the serving of the “other master”…

venial sin …even deliberate venial sin is essentially different than mortal sin…one is still serving the Lord and have not departed from him…even though one has sinned. (though yes we are to avoid such! amen!)
**
The Compendium issued by Pope Benedict XVI**

1. When does one commit a mortal sin?

1855-1861
1874

One commits a mortal sin when there are simultaneously present: grave matter, full knowledge, and deliberate consent. This sin destroys charity in us, deprives us of sanctifying grace, and, if unrepented, leads us to the eternal death of hell. It can be forgiven in the ordinary way by means of the sacraments of Baptism and of Penance or Reconciliation.

1. When does one commit a venial sin?

1862-1864
1875

One commits a venial sin, which is essentially different from a mortal sin, when the matter involved is less serious or, even if it is grave, when full knowledge or complete consent are absent. Venial sin does not break the covenant with God but it weakens charity and manifests a disordered affection for created goods. It impedes the progress of a soul in the exercise of the virtues and in the practice of moral good. It merits temporal punishment which purifies.

vatican.va/archive/compendium_ccc/documents/archive_2005_compendium-ccc_en.html

 

[Rascalking]

I think all these conversations about mortal, etc are missing the point. Not all mortal sins are the same. People forget that God has common sense. He won’t view Kim Jon Ill the same way he views the guy who missed church-even if that dude missed church on purpose.

It’s my opinion that sometimes people get too legalistic and forget everything else.

 

[Bookcat]

How is possible that the use of contraception in marriage after 6 children may be equivalent to a mortal sin such as abortion or not to go to Mass on Sundays, and extramarital affairs etc…

Bottom line is that such is not “equivalent” …for while all mortal sins are “mortal” some are more serious than others in their “very nature”…like mass murder…

 

[Rascalking]

"…like mass murder…

So…mass murder isn’t the moral equal fishing without a permit!?

 

[JRKH]

I think all these conversations about mortal, etc are missing the point. Not all mortal sins are the same. People forget that God has common sense. He won’t view Kim Jon Ill the same way he views the guy who missed church-even if that dude missed church on purpose.

It’s my opinion that sometimes people get too legalistic and forget everything else.

All Mortal sin is the same on one very important point…They are all MORTAL = DEADLY…

That is the only point of any real consequence.
Dead is dead. Hell is hell.

What point is there to say that God will look at Kim Jon III differently than the guy who missed Church if they both wind up Dead to God and in Hell?

We need to stop looking at “events” and start looking at the attitudes that these “events” represent. There lies the real mortality.

In the Sermon on the Mount Jesus spoke of this importance when he warned us, not just against murder, but against Anger…The internal attitude that leads to Murder. He did not just warn against Adultery, but against the Lust in the heart.
Later in Mt 15:18-19 He says:
But what comes out of the mouth proceeds from the heart, and this is what defiles. For out of the heart come evil intentions, murder, adultery, fornication, theft, false witness, slander.
These things all speak to sinful attitudes that lead to sinful actions.
And Jesus is clear in the above that it is our attitudes - our hearts - that defile us.

So dear Christian - What is your attitude? Where is your heart? What master do you serve???

Peace
James

 

[fix]

Bottom line is that such is not “equivalent” …for while all mortal sins are “mortal” some are more serious than others in their “very nature”…like mass murder…

Yes, and we tend to use the wrong measuring stick. The reality is that we will not be judged on whether we were “better” than a serial killer. The measure is Christ.