"all opposition ( to Mormonism ) comes ultimately from Satan"

[why_me]

Dianaiad & Zerinus:

I would really be interested in an honest answer to Anna’s question. We are talking about false prophesies here, not character flaws. Trying to prove that true prophets have personal weaknesses is not the same as maintaining that a “prophet” who give false prophesies can still be a true prophet.

Prophecies are always conditional. If not, then we would be living in a predetermined world.

fairlds.org/Bible/Nature_of_Prophets_and_Prophecy.html

The Lord told David that the men of Keilah “will deliver thee up [to Saul]” (1 Samuel 23:12). This did not happen, however, because David fled from the city (verses 13-14).
Isaiah told king Hezekiah, “Thus saith the Lord, Set thine house in order; for thou shalt die, and not live.” (2 Kings 20:1) But after the king pleaded with the Lord, the prophet delivered a new message, saying that fifteen years would be added to his life (verses 2-6).
The Lord told Moses that he would destroy the Israelites and make of Moses a greater nation than they. When Moses protested that this would be wrong, the Lord changed his mind (Numbers 14:11-20).
The Lord said through Elisha that the combined armies of Israel, Judah and Edom would “smite every fenced city” of Moab and that he would “deliver the Moabites also into your hand.” But one city, Kir-hareseth, was not taken. When Mesha, the Moabite king, sacrificed his son on the city wall, the Israelites left and went home. The prophecy was not fulfilled because the Israelites would not cooperate with the Lord’s wishes.
Through Ezekiel, the Lord declared that the Lebanese city of Tyre would be destroyed by the Babylonian king Nebuchadrezzar, never to be rebuilt (Ezekiel 26, especially verses 4, 7, 12, 14). Though Nebuchadrezzar laid siege against Tyre from 598 to 586 B.C., he was never able to take the city. The Lord then told Ezekiel that, in compensation for his not taking Tyre, Nebuchadrezzar would be given the land of Egypt, (Ezekiel 29:17-10). Its people would be slain and its rivers dry up (Ezekiel 30:10-12; 32:11-15) and the land of Egypt would remain uninhabited for forty years (Ezekiel 29:11-13). But though Nebuchadrezzar defeated an Egyptian army in battle, he never conquered Egypt either.
Isaiah, in his prophesy against Babylon (Isaiah 13:1), declared that the Medes would slay men, women and children and that Babylon would “be as when God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah. It shall never be inhabited, neither shall it be dwelt in from generation to generation” (Isaiah 13:17-20). In 539 B.C., Cyrus, king of the Medes and Persians, took Babylon without bloodshed, and made it one of the principal cities of his empire. Babylon remained inhabited for centuries afterward.

The link has much information about the mormon mindset to prophets and prophecy

 

[KathleenGee]

I remember reading that passage, and it is revealing the relationship God seeks with us. It is also reflective on the role Moses played, one of the greatest figures ever of the Bible.

You can’t compare apples and oranges, and use that to dissent from Christianity and its origins.

 

[why_me]

I remember reading that passage, and it is revealing the relationship God seeks with us. It is also reflective on the role Moses played, one of the greatest figures ever of the Bible.

You can’t compare apples and oranges, and use that to dissent from Christianity and its origins.

But prophecy as always been conditional… such it is and always has been. Nothing is predetermined

Was the crucifixtion of christ predetermined? Maybe but if so, then someone had to be predetermined to take the fall…Judas?

 

[catholic-rcia]

But prophecy as always been conditional… such it is and always has been. Nothing is predetermined

Was the crucifixtion of christ predetermined? Maybe but if so, then someone had to be predetermined to take the fall…Judas?

scborromeo.org/ccc/p122a4p2.htm#600

 

[Anna_Scott]

Prophecies are always conditional. If not, then we would be living in a predetermined world.

fairlds.org/Bible/Nature_of_Prophets_and_Prophecy.html

**Prophecies are not always conditional. Will Christ return or is that conditional? Will there be a resurrection and judgment or is that conditional?

Your examples do not justify failed prophecies of Mormon prophets; and they do not negate the test of a true prophet given in Deuteronomy:**

Deuteronomy 13 (ESV):
1 "If a prophet or a dreamer of dreams arises among you and gives you a sign or a wonder, 2 and the sign or wonder that he tells you comes to pass, and if he says, ‘Let us go after other gods,’ which you have not known, ‘and let us serve them,’ 3 you shall not listen to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams.

For the LORD your God is testing you, to know whether you love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul. 4 You shall walk after the LORD your God and fear him and keep his commandments and obey his voice, and you shall serve him and hold fast to him.

5 But that prophet or that dreamer of dreams shall be put to death, because he has taught rebellion against the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt and redeemed you out of the house of slavery, to make you leave the way in which the LORD your God commanded you to walk. So you shall purge the evil from your midst.

Deuteronomy 18:
20 But the prophet who presumes to speak a word in my name that I have not commanded him to speak, or who speaks in the name of other gods, that same prophet shall die.’ 21 And if you say in your heart, ‘How may we know the word that the LORD has not spoken?’—

22 when a prophet speaks in the name of the LORD, if the word does not come to pass or come true, that is a word that the LORD has not spoken; the prophet has spoken it presumptuously. You need not be afraid of him.

Dianaiad still has not answered this post. Click on blue arrow to go to full text of post:

If a prophet says, “God revealed to me”; does that count as a God given revelation or does the prophet have to say, “thus saith the lord”?

Keep in mind that in the Bible, one who “presumes to speak a word” in God’s name is acting as a prophet, regardless of whether or not he says “thus saith the lord.” (Deuteronomy 13:20). . . .

or this post:

You did use the word “dismiss” and gave a general answer. You still have not answered my specific question about Joseph Smith:

Do you dismiss the writings of Founder, and First Mormon Prophet, Joseph Smith due to the age of his writings?

I, also, asked: At what point in history did the Mormon Prophets and Apostles speak truth?

You still have not answered this question, either. You say we quote early writings, so this is your opportunity to tell us the point in history, when your Prophets and Apostles began to speak truth.

If you do not want to answer the two questions, just tell me.

**Are there any LDS forum members willing to help Dianaiad with these?

Anna**

 

[ttnacath]

Answersplease:
Why is opposition from the evil one or Satan not a bad thing? Of course it is.

The source of all truth, the Holy Ghost, is not in accord with Satan so from my thinking unless someone just hates Mormons, Satan is the source of the opposition.

 

[Catholic2daMax]

It’s hypocritical to claim that opposition to the mormon church is inspired by satin and to use such a claim to criticize the Catholic Church. It is similar claims endorsed by the Catholics that have caused them so much criticism.

I’d like to know what Church officials you know have taught that belief? As a matter of fact the Church teaches that one who believes he is following the religion he believes is true, and is ignorant of the Church teachings, through no fought of his own, may enter the kingdom of heaven.

 

[SteveVH]

It’s hypocritical to claim that opposition to the mormon church is inspired by satin and to use such a claim to criticize the Catholic Church. It is similar claims endorsed by the Catholics that have caused them so much criticism.

I’d like to echo Catholic2daMax’s sentiment. I can’t say that I’ve ever in my life heard a word, good or bad, about the Mormon church from a Catholic pulpit, newsletter, document or any other source. Our Church leaders and officials tend not to criticize other faith traditions, at least I’ve never experienced it. I too would be interested in your sources.

 

[KathleenGee]

I have never heard a priest criticize another religion from the pulpit but focus on the continual building of faith and help us understand the Word of God for today’s times…If there is erroneous thinking, they will address the error and give the correct understanding.

It is different for us who live as lay people as we ‘bump’ into ideas inspite of our good intentions.

And sometimes it is good to bring out the source of why people think things in the first place…but with charity…and openness to new relationships.

People also hunger for what is true and right…

 

[ricko]

Prophecies are not always conditional. Will Christ return or is that conditional? Will there be a resurrection and judgment or is that conditional?

Your examples do not justify failed prophecies of Mormon prophets; and they do not negate the test of a true prophet given in Deuteronomy:

Dianaiad still has not answered this post. Click on blue arrow to go to full text of post:

Originally Posted by Anna Scott
If a prophet says, “God revealed to me”; does that count as a God given revelation or does the prophet have to say, “thus saith the lord”?

 

[peary1]

Originally Posted by **dianaiad **
. . .See, here’s the thing; we are quite aware that our leaders are men; mere men, who have opinions of their own and are allowed to express them. Some of those opinions can be, and are, wrong. . . .

Yes, like polygamy, and then there was the problem of not allowing African Americans from becomming Mormon ministers or holding high positions in the church because your ‘prophets’ maintained they were ‘inferior’…and you guys held that until the early 1970s. That goes WAY beyond opinion…that was considered a ‘revelation’ from your ‘prophets’.

 

[KathleenGee]

Let us pray…

very much

 

[SteveVH]

Let us pray…

very much

AMEN!!!

 

[why_me]

I have never heard a priest criticize another religion from the pulpit but focus on the continual building of faith and help us understand the Word of God for today’s times…If there is erroneous thinking, they will address the error and give the correct understanding.

It is different for us who live as lay people as we ‘bump’ into ideas inspite of our good intentions.

No it isn’t different at all. As a catholic, priests should set an example on how to live life, and we can learn from them. No catholic church that I am aware of expounds on the notion that lay people should criticize other faiths and shut others down with their truths.

 

[why_me]

Originally Posted by **dianaiad **
. . .See, here’s the thing; we are quite aware that our leaders are men; mere men, who have opinions of their own and are allowed to express them. Some of those opinions can be, and are, wrong. . . .

Yes, like polygamy, and then there was the problem of not allowing African Americans from becomming Mormon ministers or holding high positions in the church because your ‘prophets’ maintained they were ‘inferior’…and you guys held that until the early 1970s. That goes WAY beyond opinion…that was considered a ‘revelation’ from your ‘prophets’.

Or like the inquistion and the terrible torture that was endured by some catholics during that period. Need we forget Saint John of the Cross and his imprisonment by his own friars because they did not agree with him and the terrible torture that he experienced.

 

[KathleenGee]

The documents of the Inquisition have been brought out in 2003. And it proved what people long suspected, that the Catholic clergy exonerated most people…

The excesses were done by lay people. And many times, a priest can preach the Christian spirit…but they won’t listen.

We live among each other. And it is a Christian work of mercy to instruct those who do not understand or are in error. It is also the work of justice to remove false images of others.

It goes both ways…It is the lay people who are ‘out there’. The priests live a consecrated life. It is through us the faith is integrated into the world.

And we have a right to point out or converse on ideas or beliefs that are not right, especially if we are the ones, the priests especially included, are labelled an abomination and our beliefs corrupt. It was a priest who told me in Utah that my kids would be targeted to come into LDS.

On the wall of the Madeleine in SLC, there is a saying to the sort, ‘for those who follow an angel(s), let them be anathema!’

 

[SteveVH]

No it isn’t different at all. As a catholic, priests should set an example on how to live life, and we can learn from them. No catholic church that I am aware of expounds on the notion that lay people should criticize other faiths and shut others down with their truths.

The point is that our Church never speaks against other denominations or religions in any official capacity. They may bring up heretical beliefs and discuss those, but only on the merits and never tied to a specific organization. I’ve actually never heard even a word about the LDS church, it is pretty much just ignored. Individuals, however, are allowed to defend their faith and even evangelize with one on one conversations. The charity with which some of us do that varies greatly and yes, we should live up to the standards the Church expects of us. Compare this, however, to official Mormon documents, sermons, articles etc. in which the Catholic Church is attacked with varying degrees of ferocity.

 

[SteveVH]

As I said, if one has a restorationist church, it means that that church must come up with good reasons why god would need to restore his church upon the earth.

We’re still waiting for those good reasons.

 

[Anna_Scott]

I’m still waiting for Dianaiad to answer these two posts, or any LDS forum members who want to help her with these issues:

You did use the word “dismiss” and gave a general answer. You still have not answered my specific question about Joseph Smith:

Do you dismiss the writings of Founder, and First Mormon Prophet, Joseph Smith due to the age of his writings?

I, also, asked: At what point in history did the Mormon Prophets and Apostles speak truth? . . . .

If a prophet says, “God revealed to me”; does that count as a God given revelation or does the prophet have to say, “thus saith the lord”?

Keep in mind that in the Bible, one who “presumes to speak a word” in God’s name is acting as a prophet, regardless of whether or not he says “thus saith the lord.” (Deuteronomy 13:20). . . .

Anna

 

[Anna_Scott]

Prophecies are always conditional. If not, then we would be living in a predetermined world. . . .

why me,

I responded to your post (link noted above,) but have not heard back from you regarding the test of a true prophet.

Prophecies are not always conditional. Will Christ return or is that conditional? Will there be a resurrection and judgment or is that conditional?

Your examples do not justify failed prophecies of Mormon prophets; and they do not negate the test of a true prophet given in Deuteronomy: . . . .

Anna