"all opposition ( to Mormonism ) comes ultimately from Satan"

[KathleenGee]

I am going back into my work…

About St. John of the Cross and his treatment by fellow Carmelite…the Church considers those for sainthood who have suffered very much… and if they have not suffered the worst from fellow Catholics, then, most are taken out of consideration…

The worst hurt is betrayal by those you trusted, who shared the same faith and ideal…

It was during St. John of the Cross’s trials that he wrote the great epic, ‘The Dark Night of the Soul’ . This suffering he endured created such a great spiritual masterpiece that has touched the lives of countless many people…‘for the wheat must fall to the ground and die, before it can bear fruit’.

 

[KathleenGee]

And there are a great number of scholastic priests who write in the area of apologetics and provide materials to help Catholics understand others’ faiths and those who also hold incorrect ideas or images of the Catholic church.

It is just that Jesus Christ was the final revelation of Who God Is…and Joseph Smith is not a true prophet because, for one thing, he contradicted the Lord’s exhortation to be faithful to one spouse, to carry the Cross, to be detached from the goods of this earth to encounter perfection…the union with God…

St. Francis of Assisi was one such person who suffered greatly, lived the life of a vagabond before he had a following of brothers…but the joy that he had…the love of God that he shared, and his work of reconciliation…

 

[KathleenGee]

And finally about criticism…The Catholic Church is self-reforming…have you ever attended a chapter meeting or been among clergy in fraternal gatherings…they get animated, they challenge each other…they criticize…but it is because they are seeking God and truth…in perfecting themselves and others…

I attended a chapter meeting where religious and lay were included. I was told that when we go in there…after being with each other for several years…it was the time to let it all out, a time of analysis and critique of their past work and where we were going with those we served…it could be quite hard but very good in the end and we all felt closer.

The church shows us its past…there are many documents open to the public…when documents are sealed, it is to protect fragile people and their loved ones, to get through the experience or failing and to be restored in Christ, learn from it and move on…

I think people just don’t think God is big enough to forgive 'the Church’s sins…it is made up of people, and God forgives every person in the church who seeks true forgiveness and reconciliation…

 

[ricko]

BUMP… waiting for Dianaiad to answer

I’m still waiting for Dianaiad to answer these two posts, or any LDS forum members who want to help her with these issues:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anna Scott
You did use the word “dismiss” and gave a general answer. You still have not answered my specific question about Joseph Smith:

 

[benidict]

Hiyas

Satan hides behind many names, today.

Abortion
Euthanasia
Eugenics
Destruction of Families core values
Destruction of Religion
Corrupt governmental infringements upon liberty in the guise of liberty

Let’s call Satan by his true names.

I will walk arm and arm - together - with those against today’s …Satan.

I may disagree with different Church doctrines and I have … ask any LDS member here ]…But I recognize who today’s Satan is and I cherish the help of ALL religious in combating him.

As always, just my thoughts

:grouphug:

 

[dianaiad]

hi diana aside from their personal issues, and sinfulness. the prophet that claimed to speak from God, had to be correct in his predictions, 100% of the time. otherwise he would be labled a false prophet and stoned. you can find this written about in jeramiah. that being said, Joseph Smith was a false prophet. not one of his prophecies ever came true. also we have this in protestant circles such as pat robertson, who said the u.s. would be nuked or have a huge tidal wave in 2008 or 2009. saying it was a vision from the Lord. Peace be with you.

Lessee… Joseph prophesied the Civil war, and that it would begin with South Carolina. That was true.

In 1831 he prophesied that the saints would be driven to the Rocky Mountians, but would flourish there. I don’t think anybody could say that THAT one was false.

In 1844 he prophecied that within 5 years the saints would be 'out of the power of our old enemies." he was right about that one, too. They ended up with NEW enemies a few years later, but hey…

In 1843, he prophesied that Stephen Douglas would aspire to be President of the United States. At the time he was a ‘bright light,’ but hardly in consideration for the Presidency. Joseph told him that if he turned against the Mormons, that he would lose, and would always regret his choices. In 1860 he ran, gave a rather famous anti-Mormon set of speeches, and he lost the Presidency. Lincoln won.

Now there are quite a few others. I’m not going to list them all. However, these are sufficient to prove that Joseph Smith made prophecies that actually came true.

 

[dianaiad]

Really now, Get this guys… I’ve always wanted to share my “experience” about the 2 mormon missionaries that converted me back in 1987 in Bethesda, MD. - So here goes.
The 2 “elders” (missionaries to you not familiar w/ the mormon religion) that "witnessed’ to me were tired of living in their “bare bones” apt., so they made friends w/ someone @ their “ward” who was an employee of a dept. store. This “upstanding” mormon (LOL) allowed these 2 missionaries to go into the store after hours and clean the store out. Furniture, housewares, ect. I was appalled when they themselves told me this. I should have reported them, but at that point I was new to the ward, and didn’t want to cause “drama”. Plus I was only 22. I will never again trust a mormon missionary.

There is more to that story than you are telling us, Vicki. A lot more.

For one thing, the same thing happened to me when I was on MY mission. My companion and I were invited in to a local store after closing and told to pick out what we needed for our flat–we had nothing. No beds, no furniture, no kitchen supplies, nothing. Upon recieving that invitation, we immediately contacted our mission president, who contacted the store owner–who confirmed the invitation. This company regularly did this for all the missionaries and members of clergy in the area, Mormon or not. It was one of the ways this business (and as it turned out, other businesses as well) donated to their community. While I was in that area, I turned to that store several times to ask them to help a needy family, and the store had ‘after hours’ shopping times for those families, too.

…is this another “Nobody ever heard of the Pearl of Great Price” sort of thing, Viki?

Diana

 

[benidict]

Lessee… Joseph prophesied the Civil war, and that it would begin with South Carolina. That was true.

In 1831 he prophesied that the saints would be driven to the Rocky Mountians, but would flourish there. I don’t think anybody could say that THAT one was false.

In 1844 he prophecied that within 5 years the saints would be 'out of the power of our old enemies." he was right about that one, too. They ended up with NEW enemies a few years later, but hey…

In 1843, he prophesied that Stephen Douglas would aspire to be President of the United States. At the time he was a ‘bright light,’ but hardly in consideration for the Presidency. Joseph told him that if he turned against the Mormons, that he would lose, and would always regret his choices. In 1860 he ran, gave a rather famous anti-Mormon set of speeches, and he lost the Presidency. Lincoln won.

Now there are quite a few others. I’m not going to list them all. However, these are sufficient to prove that Joseph Smith made prophecies that actually came true.

hi diana. thanks for your response. but the mark of a true prophet is that he would be 100% correct. joseph smith also made prophecies that Christ would come back in his lifetime. this did not materialize. also he made prophecies that some of his insiders would go to palestine and convert the Jews, this also did not happen. not even close. therefore like balaam, even if he was correct on a few prophecies that does not make him a true prophet. as to the civil war prophecy, that has been anylized by other authors and proven to be without merit. but be that as it may, it did not take a prophet at that time to predict that we were on the path to civil war. the seeds for that had already been sewn in our constitution. its just interesting that a civil war did not happen earlier than it did. peace be to you.

 

[dianaiad]

Yes, they did have furniture initially, but it wasn’t to their liking. No, the employee of the Dept. store wasn’t the owner, he was a CASHIER that “let the 2 elders slide” through w/out paying. I DID NOT misunderstand, as you suggested – because after they -as I said earlier “cleaned the place out” - they had the gall to brag about it to myself and ANOTHER young lady. I was there, you weren’t. Nuff said…

Yes, Viki…and you were there when you didn’t speak to the clerks in the Deseret Book Store but nevertheless knew that they had never heard of the “Pearl of Great Price,” and had pulled the book, and you were there when you called the church authorities in SLC and THEY told you that they had never heard of the Pearl of Great Price.

Please excuse me, Viki…but while you may believe this story yourself, it is extremely unlikely.

 

[dianaiad]

If my daughter who is now a mormon missionary would do such a thing, the mission president would put her on the first plane home. And these two young men would also be on the first plane home. This is why I doubt your story. All missionaries know that such behavior would get them an early trip home to see mom or dad.

Actually, such behavior would get them jail time. The church would not, and does not, put up with this sort of thing. That’s why I believe that there is a great deal more to the story than Viki has told us.

 

[benidict]

Actually, such behavior would get them jail time. The church would not, and does not, put up with this sort of thing. That’s why I believe that there is a great deal more to the story than Viki has told us.

id have to say your right diana. i cant see this happening as she stated. she may have misunderstood them. perhaps they were allowed to take items that the store was going to get rid of anyway. it happens. why not put something to good use instead of throwing it in the dumpster.

 

[dianaiad]

hi diana. thanks for your response. but the mark of a true prophet is that he would be 100% correct. joseph smith also made prophecies that Christ would come back in his lifetime. this did not materialize. also he made prophecies that some of his insiders would go to palestine and convert the Jews, this also did not happen. not even close. therefore like balaam, even if he was correct on a few prophecies that does not make him a true prophet. as to the civil war prophecy, that has been anylized by other authors and proven to be without merit. but be that as it may, it did not take a prophet at that time to predict that we were on the path to civil war. the seeds for that had already been sewn in our constitution. its just interesting that a civil war did not happen earlier than it did. peace be to you.

Benidict, you are moving the goal posts a little, aren’t you? First you claim that Joseph Smith didn’t have a SINGLE prophecy that came true, and now…

Well, actually, Joseph did NOT prophecy that Christ would come back in his life time. That specific prophecy was rather clear; IF he (Joseph) lived to be 80 something, that he would see Christ–but then he immediately said he didn’t know if that meant that Christ would come physically, or that he (Joseph) would die first and see Him that way. This particular example of a ‘failed prophecy’ is one of the most egregious examples of words being taken out of context there is.

As to the civil war…actually, it was NOT all that expected at the time Joseph made that specific prophecy, and it was certainly not expected that if war came, South Carolina would be the instigator. However, even if it were as obvious as yesterday’s headlines, it was a prophecy, and it came true.

The fact that others SHOULD Have been able to see the signs and make the same prophecy doesn’t make his statement false, y’know.

 

[benidict]

Benidict, you are moving the goal posts a little, aren’t you? First you claim that Joseph Smith didn’t have a SINGLE prophecy that came true, and now…

Well, actually, Joseph did NOT prophecy that Christ would come back in his life time. That specific prophecy was rather clear; IF he (Joseph) lived to be 80 something, that he would see Christ–but then he immediately said he didn’t know if that meant that Christ would come physically, or that he (Joseph) would die first and see Him that way. This particular example of a ‘failed prophecy’ is one of the most egregious examples of words being taken out of context there is.

As to the civil war…actually, it was NOT all that expected at the time Joseph made that specific prophecy, and it was certainly not expected that if war came, South Carolina would be the instigator. However, even if it were as obvious as yesterday’s headlines, it was a prophecy, and it came true.

The fact that others SHOULD Have been able to see the signs and make the same prophecy doesn’t make his statement false, y’know.

hi diana. read a little more carefully. i said “even if.” i for one do not believe any of joseph smiths prophecies came true. but again, even IF a few of them did. it does not make him a prophet. again. the Biblical test for a prophet is that he must be correct 100% this was in accordance with the law of moses and also found in the book of jeramiah. either joseph smith spoke for God or he did not. but for all the good that came out of what he founded, he was still by the standards set up by the law of moses, a false prophet. such was balaam also. he was correct at times. but still he was a false prophet. peace be to you.

 

[KathleenGee]

The issue of the book wasn’t the title…it was the contents…in 2004 or 5…and a former president had second thoughts about the Mormon church’s stand against Catholics only just back in 1997.

Without the Roman church and its daughters, the construct of Mormonism collapses.

 

[Answersplease]

(color added)

Gene Fadness is a former Mormon.

Marie,

In response to your query about the speed in which converts are baptized

 

[Answersplease]

(color added)

Cant speak for what the LDS church does now when it has an investigator who has some serious questions and is looking for serious answers. Back when I was LDS, those concerns were, like others have said, given short, almost dismissive answers, and never really addressed.

When I went thru RCIA, ANY question I had, ANY doubt, was taken seriously and was never marginalized. We talked clearly, openly about all of the controversies and history of the Catholic Church, the good, the BAD, and the VERY UGLY. None were afraid to take bright spotlight to any issue and discuss it. There was no rushing, there was no glossing over etc.

There was no pressure. Ever.
And before any of us when thru the Easter Vigil and the rest of the Sacraments, our leaders made sure that we knew exactly what was going on, and why, and its significants.

Every question was taken seriously. Every single one.

 

[Vasian]

Answersplease:
Sounds just like The Watchtower Society speaking about all other religions including the Mormons

 

[KathleenGee]

Vasian,

Study the Stone / Campbell movement in the USA during the early half of the 1800’s in the United States.

The bigger issue is that the divisions within Christianity are bringing about in part our downfall. We need to unite in prayer and faith…in the One True Lord, to be able atleast to come together in prayer of the Our Father, the recitation of the psalms, and prayer intentions of the gathering.

I hope the Mormons, Seventh Day Adventists, Jehovah Witnesses and all the other will eventually open to joining as well.

 

[KathleenGee]

Question:

I am rather new to forums, and old enough to be somebody’s grandma…or great grandma…

What does the check mean? Who puts it there? Does it mean to target this site or what? I see it come up all the time…

 

[MJE]

I am following this thread, albeit casually. If there were an LDS Creed composed by the LDS founder J. Smith, would ‘the beliefs’ still apply? If not, how many times since J. Smith’s death, would it have been edited?