All Souls vestments

[Xanthippe_Voorhees]

Share this link with your pastor.

www.catholicliturgicals.com

If he sees how reasonable the prices are, he might be willing.

I’m not joking either. Many priests don’t have black vestments for the simple reason that they don’t want to pay the prices demanded in many of the U.S. stores or catalogues. If he sees that he can get a very nice black Gothic chasuble for only $60, he might be willing, or someone might be willing to sponsor a set. I’m not saying to force it on him, but it might be worth exploring.

This is a good link. I know that we repaired vestments because the cost of some of the even mildly ornate ones reached into the hundreds.

 

[FrDavid96]

Ordos are not official. They can say whatever the editor or publisher wants them to say. Unfortunately, sometimes someone with an agenda will add commentary that’s nothing more than personal opinion.

White is only permitted in the US because at some point (circa late 1960s) the US bishops petitioned the Holy See for a variation on the Roman Missal GIRM to allow white to be used.

If you have access to an old Sacramentary, one printed in 1973 (or was it '74?) the GIRM was printed in a different format. The universal GIRM was printed first, then the US adaptations were printed after it. White for funerals only appears in the adaptations.

Some ordos even say that there are 2 different colors of violet, one for Advent and one for Lent. In reality, no such thing exists. It’s just the personal thoughts of some editor.

 

[SanRafael1102]

Have you actually gone to each and every parish and looked in every sacristy closet?

I’ve asked a priest about black vestments before. He says it’s optional and most of the local parishes don’t even own any.

 

[FrDavid96]

I’ve asked a priest about black vestments before. He says it’s optional and most of the local parishes don’t even own any.

That’s fine.

If he doesn’t want to use (or own) them, that’s his prerogative.

 

[Phemie]

In Canada GIRM 346 says

As regards the colour of sacred vestments, traditional usage should be observed,
namely:
a) The colour white is used in the Offices and Masses during Easter Time and
Christmas Time; on the Solemnity of the Most Holy Trinity, and furthermore
on celebrations of the Lord other than of his Passion, celebrations of the Blessed
Virgin Mary, of the Holy Angels, and of Saints who were not Martyrs; on the
Solemnities of All Saints (1 November) and of the Nativity of St. John the Baptist
(24 June); and on the Feasts of St. John the Evangelist (27 December), of the
Chair of St. Peter (22 February), and of the Conversion of St. Paul (25 January).
The colour white may also be worn in funerals and in Offices and Masses for the
Dead in the dioceses of Canada. (…)

d) The colour violet or purple is used in Advent and Lent. It may also be worn in
Offices and Masses for the Dead.
e) The colour black may be used, where it is the practice, in Masses for the Dead.

I honestly think the last black vestment I saw was accompanied by a black palled catafalque at an anniversary Mass sometime in the 60s.

 

[Xanthippe_Voorhees]

SanRafael1102:

I’ve asked a priest about black vestments before. He says it’s optional and most of the local parishes don’t even own any.

That’s fine.

If he doesn’t want to use (or own) them, that’s his prerogative.

I think that is in part to the limited use…I know most parishes would be really hesitant to pay hundreds of dollars for a full vestment set for a priest and decon that was used once a year (since many do not want black at funerals these days). However, the website you provided shows affordable prices. I think many priests are having to justify every penny and the aquisiton of pricy vestments are just not in the budget. I’ve repaired vestments and was shocked at the prices paid.

Unless they were made of pure gold, hand sewn by nuns and washed in their tears there was no reason a simple vestment should cost hundreds…it seemed like usury to me…but the priests said there were no longer women who could do the sewing and the suppliers set the steep, steep prices. My repairing a small rip saved the church nearly $100 from sending it in to be fixed to the tune of $50 plus shipping.

 

[FrDavid96]

In Canada GIRM 346 says

As regards the colour of sacred vestments, traditional usage should be observed,
namely:
a) The colour white is used in the Offices and Masses during Easter Time and
Christmas Time; on the Solemnity of the Most Holy Trinity, and furthermore
on celebrations of the Lord other than of his Passion, celebrations of the Blessed
Virgin Mary, of the Holy Angels, and of Saints who were not Martyrs; on the
Solemnities of All Saints (1 November) and of the Nativity of St. John the Baptist
(24 June); and on the Feasts of St. John the Evangelist (27 December), of the
Chair of St. Peter (22 February), and of the Conversion of St. Paul (25 January).
The colour white may also be worn in funerals and in Offices and Masses for the
Dead in the dioceses of Canada. (…)

d) The colour violet or purple is used in Advent and Lent. It may also be worn in
Offices and Masses for the Dead.
e) The colour black may be used, where it is the practice, in Masses for the Dead.

I honestly think the last black vestment I saw was accompanied by a black palled catafalque at an anniversary Mass sometime in the 60s.

The key phrase there is “in the dioceses of Canada.” That indicates to us that it is not a universal norm. It is an adaptation that applies only to Canada. We know that it also applies to some other countries, like the U.S., and in such cases, their printing of the GIRM will have similar phrasing, but it is not universal.

 

[Usige]

I think that is in part to the limited use… I know most parishes would be really hesitant to pay hundreds of dollars for a full vestment set for a priest and decon that was used once a year

That line of thought is probably true, but …

How many parishes have Rose/Pink vestments for Guadete and Laetare Sundays, but don’t have Black vestments? Rose may only be worn twice a year, whereas Black could be worn dozens of times. Even if one were not using Black for funerals, they can still be used for a Mass of the Dead (e.g. anniversary of loved ones death, daily mass for the dead, et cetera). I know some priests that offer a daily mass each week in November for the dead. In many cases they wear Violet, but they could also wear Black.

That’s not to say that a parish has to have Black vestments in preference to Rose, but rather that Rose is actually the liturgical color that is most restricted of the two and yet fewer parishes balk at purchasing them.

 

[FrDavid96]

Xanthippe_Voorhees:

I think that is in part to the limited use… I know most parishes would be really hesitant to pay hundreds of dollars for a full vestment set for a priest and decon that was used once a year

That line of thought is probably true, but …

How many parishes have Rose/Pink vestments for Guadete and Laetare Sundays, but don’t have Black vestments? Rose may only be worn twice a year, whereas Black could be worn dozens of times. Even if one were not using Black for funerals, they can still be used for a Mass of the Dead (e.g. anniversary of loved ones death, daily mass for the dead, et cetera). I know some priests that offer a daily mass each week in November for the dead. In many cases they wear Violet, but they could also wear Black.

That’s not to say that a parish has to have Black vestments in preference to Rose, but rather that Rose is actually the liturgical color that is most restricted of the two and yet fewer parishes balk at purchasing them.

The willingness to buy any vestments is always going to depend on the individual pastor.

 

[twf]

Yes, younger priests tend to be more traditional across the board. They are also much more likely to chant than their elders. A, then, 74 year old priest once confided to me “I don’t understand why young priests are so conservative!”

 

[Phemie]

If you have access to an old Sacramentary, one printed in 1973 (or was it '74?) the GIRM was printed in a different format. The universal GIRM was printed first, then the US adaptations were printed after it. White for funerals only appears in the adaptations.

That’s what annoys me about the Vatican website. They don’t simply publish an English GIRM, they publish the one with the US adaptations.

Father, I’m looking at the Latin and the French (which doesn’t include adaptations) and, unlike white, red, and green where specific occasions or seasons are listed, there is no colour specifically indicated for Masses for the Dead. Violet “may be used” and black “may be used where it is the custom”. “Where it is the custom” is a change from the former GIRM and certainly doesn’t seem to leave room for a parish that has never used black to start using it. What makes it normative? Is it the fact that it was the traditional colour for centuries?

 

[FrDavid96]

That’s what annoys me about the Vatican website. They don’t simply publish an English GIRM, they publish the one with the US adaptations.

Father, I’m looking at the Latin and the French (which doesn’t include adaptations) and, unlike white, red, and green where specific occasions or seasons are listed, there is no colour specifically indicated for Masses for the Dead. Violet “may be used” and black “may be used where it is the custom”. “Where it is the custom” is a change from the former GIRM and certainly doesn’t seem to leave room for a parish that has never used black to start using it. What makes it normative? Is it the fact that it was the traditional colour for centuries?

That comment about “where it is the custom” is redundant. It was the universal custom before the Novus Ordo.

The same comment appears several times with regard to putting salt in the Holy Water. It was absolutely required until the Novus Ordo. Not optional but absolutely required.

I think this is a device used by the translators to downplay some of the traditional established practices. If they can imply that such things were only done in some places, they make it seem as if it’s an option that should be easily dismissed. In other words “you only put salt in the water if it’s your custom, and it probably isn’t your custom anyway, so just forget you ever read this part.”

Back to the black part:

I am reading my Extraordinary Form Missal.

General rubrics (ie GIRM)

132 Black is worn on
a Good Friday
b Masses for the dead (except for 130 d)

It says “is used” utendum est

130 Violet is worn:
a - c
d. A Mass on All Souls if there is Exposition of the Blessed Sacrament after Mass.

I’m translation (of course) and it’s not verbatim.

It’s also odd because #129 lists when violet “is required” , while 130 lists when violet “is used”

 

[Usige]

The willingness to buy any vestments is always going to depend on the individual pastor

That is true and is certainly their prerogative. I was simply thinking that Black vestments could actually be used more often than once a year as there are more provisions for their use than say Rose.

 

[poche]

Where I live the priest used white vestments.

 

[greenrangerx]

My priest wore violet, and told us that it’s referred to at seminary as “new black” (black with a tinge of hope). He also wore a biretta, which I’ve never seen in person before (he said it’s only for very special occasions) .

 

[Phemie]

I think this is a device used by the translators to downplay some of the traditional established practices. If they can imply that such things were only done in some places, they make it seem as if it’s an option that should be easily dismissed. In other words “you only put salt in the water if it’s your custom, and it probably isn’t your custom anyway, so just forget you ever read this part.”

I’m not fluent in Latin by any stretch of the imagination but it doesn’t seem to be something added by the translators.
e) Color niger adhiberi potest, ubi mos est, in Missis defunctorum.

 

[FrDavid96]

I’m not fluent in Latin by any stretch of the imagination but it doesn’t seem to be something added by the translators.
e) Color niger adhiberi potest, ubi mos est, in Missis defunctorum.

It might be a way of referring to the fact that Oriental cultures use white instead or other places other colors.

Not custom in the sense of liturgical custom (not canon law custom); because since it was the universal color for the dead in the rubrics, it wasn’t custom, but instead an explicit law.

So “where it is the custom” means “where it is the cultural custom to wear black for mourning.” Maybe that’s the meaning?

There is no “where it is custom” in my EF Missal.

 

[Phemie]

Phemie:

I’m not fluent in Latin by any stretch of the imagination but it doesn’t seem to be something added by the translators.
e) Color niger adhiberi potest, ubi mos est, in Missis defunctorum.

It might be a way of referring to the fact that Oriental cultures use white instead or other places other colors.

Not custom in the sense of liturgical custom (not canon law custom); because since it was the universal color for the dead in the rubrics, it wasn’t custom, but instead an explicit law.

So “where it is the custom” means “where it is the cultural custom to wear black for mourning.” Maybe that’s the meaning?

There is no “where it is custom” in my EF Missal.

Oh, I had never considered that it might mean cultural custom rather than liturgical custom.

Culturally, in my neck of the woods black seems to only be worn by the funeral directors. I’ve gone to a lot of funerals in the last 20 years and rare was there one where black was the predominant colour among the mourners, even the families. Long gone around here are the days of the widow and children wearing black, or even muted colours, for an extended period.

It’s a far cry from the days when my grandfather died in 1957 and my mother had her winter coat died black for that 1 year period of mourning and my father wore a black arm band for the same reason after his father died a few months later.

I purposely wore black to Mom’s wake and funeral in 1985 but never wore “mourning” after the funeral. If I wore black to Dad’s funeral 18 years later it was only because my “church clothes” are mainly black.

 

[Aran_Houlihan]

black for requim mass

 

[FrDavid96]

Oh, I had never considered that it might mean cultural custom rather than liturgical custom.

Frankly, neither did I until last night when typing. It did seem like a strange thing to say, so I spent some time actually thinking about it, and the idea came to me.

If “where custom” doesn’t make sense in the obvious way, maybe it means something different.

Culturally, in my neck of the woods black seems to only be worn by the funeral directors. I’ve gone to a lot of funerals in the last 20 years and rare was there one where black was the predominant colour among the mourners, even the families. Long gone around here are the days of the widow and children wearing black, or even muted colours, for an extended period.

It’s a far cry from the days when my grandfather died in 1957 and my mother had her winter coat died black for that 1 year period of mourning and my father wore a black arm band for the same reason after his father died a few months later.

I purposely wore black to Mom’s wake and funeral in 1985 but never wore “mourning” after the funeral. If I wore black to Dad’s funeral 18 years later it was only because my “church clothes” are mainly black.

I think it’s a shame that people don’t wear black to funerals anymore. We have lost touch with the very notion that some occasions actually call for special clothing.

At this point, I’m hardly notice it anymore when I see pallbearers wearing jeans, t-shirt, sneakers (or worse). I want to say to them “you mean to tell me that you have so little respect for your dead uncle that you wear an old t-shirt advertising a brand of beer to bear his coffin?” I’m serious too. The lack of respectable (not just respectful but respectable) clothing at funerals is appalling (no pun intended) to me today.

Seriously there is so little respect today for simple propriety. I’m not exaggerating about the pall bearers either. It seems that every funeral I have, there is at least 2 or 3 or more who dress like they would to mow the lawn.