All will be saved

[teresa63]

NoelFitz:
As God can do anything, He surely could force a person to do His will (creating puppets), but why would He do this after creating mankind with a free will in the first place? His will is for people to choose Him freely, but the problem with free will is that it also allows one to choose against God’s will; and this is called sin.

God’s solution to this “problem with sin” was sending His Son to effect the grace necessary to forgive sin and help mankind resist temptation.

 

[o_mlly]

“… the Church prays for the salvation of all mankind in her liturgy, which would be wrong to do if the outcome were already known. Therefore, we must hope for the salvation of all, even if that is the “hope against hope” Paul describes in Romans.”

Edward T. Oakes

 

[NoelFitz]

O_mlly,
I like your post. It seems in complete conformity with Cayholic teaching
and reflects current viewsm including thatof Hans Urs von Balthaar, as far
as I can see.

 

[NoelFitz]

Sorry the previous post was accidentally sent before corrections.

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O_mlly,
I like your post. It seems in complete conformity with Catholic teaching and reflects current views including that of Hans Urs von Balthasar, as far as I can see.

Teresa66,
You wrote that God can do anything, yet he chooses to create beings that will suffer excruciatingly for all eternity. I find it hard to understand this. My only answer is that I cannot grasp the mind of God.

 

[Cruciferi]

1/3 of the Angels fell. Probably 1/3 of humanity as well. God offers everyone mercy but you gotta accept it! Seems to me St. Faustina wrote about this subject…

 

[teresa63]

Created creatures, by their very nature, cannot have the mind of the great Uncreated God. Rational creatures can only learn about God’s plan and His will through His own self-revelation and by inspiration or grace. Through His Church He guides, teaches and sanctifies us. We can choose this, or not.

Eternal separation from God (and all that is good, true and beautiful) is a personal choice.

 

[steve-b]

Steve-b
You quote in more detail the part of AL I quoted, but you do not show how the Pope does not believe what he said.

The very start of the first gospel written has a call to conversion/repentance (metanoia):

John [the] Baptist appeared in the desert proclaiming a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins. (Mk. 1:4 NAB)

In my response(s) I gave

"The pope is still calling for those people (he’s identifying) to conversion. There is no need for conversion, or listening to the Gospel message, if everyone is saved and no one goes to hell no matter the situation (universalism)

and

The pope is not going to go against the CCC
1035 The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, "eternal fire."615 The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs.

and universalism has been a long time condemnation by the Church

Library : The Reality of Hell | Catholic Culture"

As I read Francis, the pope is not writing off anyone in this life. So while on this side of eternity, everyone has a chance at salvation. Jesus however, told us in advance, few make it.

Don’t miss the point, universalism is a heresy

 

[steve-b]

Steve-b #3
You wrote:
Universalism is condemned by the Church.

Are you claiming the Pope is teaching contrary to the Church?

The topic of the thread is "All will be saved"
it is tied to the document AL by pope Francis.

Universalism is a heresy.

What people “think” pope Francis is saying in AL, I would suggest is NOT what he means. He is not teaching universalism. If he did he would be teaching heresy.

In extension
It could be said, for those who have tried to fashion Jesus into an overly pleasant, overly affirming sort of fellow in all situations, rather than the uncompromising Lord that He is, and therefore they set a low bar for themselves and everyone else, … well, I would suggest, they will have a rude awakening someday…

 

[Gorgias]

It seems strange that an almighty being cannot convince a creature he made to do as he wills.

It is not so much that God cannot convince [us]… to do as he wills, but rather, in His gift of free will, He refuses to make our decisions for us.

God built into his creatures the flaws that allow them to be damned for all time. We are made the way we are by God, we did not make ourselves.

We are made by God to be able to choose for ourselves; you are correct. The implication of this design is that we can choose against His will, and when we do, we damage ourselves further. That damage isn’t God’s fault, however – it’s ours.

 

[Gorgias]

What did the Pope mean by the above quote?

In context, it’s clear that he’s talking about participation in the ecclesial community. In other words, being in an irregular situation, vis-a-vis the Church, is not a permanent disbarment from all participation in liturgy. Rather, there are ways to participate in the community (even if reception of the Eucharist is not one of them). This means that we, as Church, must help those in irregular situations properly discern their particular situation. The challenge for the Church, then, is “a matter of reaching out to everyone, of needing to help each person find his or her proper way of participating in the ecclesial community and thus to experience being touched by an ‘unmerited, unconditional and gratuitous’ mercy.”

 

[steve-b]

“… the Church prays for the salvation of all mankind in her liturgy, which would be wrong to do if the outcome were already known. Therefore, we must hope for the salvation of all, even if that is the “hope against hope” Paul describes in Romans.”

Edward T. Oakes

The outcome for everyone is already known by God.

Since we don’t know who is, or who will be saved, vs those who aren’t and won’t be saved, we pray for everyone. And that is a good and holy disposition for us to have.

 

[steve-b]

PJM,

Your Bible quotes are not relevant to your main argument. But you do raise serious points.

Catholics cannot divorce. There is no way a married Catholic can get a divorce recognised by the Church, except possibly by the Petrine or Pauline privilege.

Or by the annulment process, by the Church tribunal… declaring a sacramental marriage didn’t take place. As in it was decided one or both didn’t have the proper ability to give the sacrament to the other person.

NoelFitz:

I see in a previous post in CAF that if either party is Catholic a civil marriage is not valid, unless a dispensation has been granted by a bishop.

When is marriage a sacrament?

All valid marriages between Catholics are sacramental because you can’t be Catholic without being baptized. However, a valid marriage between a Catholic and a baptized non-Catholic is sacramental, while a valid marriage between a Catholic and a non-baptized person is not.

www.catholic.com

 

[o_mlly]

Since we don’t know who is, or who will be saved, vs those who aren’t and won’t be saved, we pray for everyone. And that is a good and holy disposition for us to have.

One who hopes for that which he believes impossible suffers from cognitive dissonance. Matthew 19:26.

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

Since we don’t know who is, or who will be saved, vs those who aren’t and won’t be saved, we pray for everyone. And that is a good and holy disposition for us to have.

One who hopes for that which he believes impossible suffers from cognitive dissonance. Matthew 19:26.

Since Jesus says only a few are saved, and we don’t know who the few are, that’s the key point, we pray for everyone. That’s a good and holy act. It’s not a contradictory, nor inconsistent behavior or attitude to have.

Now if I knew exactly who was saved and not saved and I prayed for everyone, THAT prayer for the unsaved then would be useless.

Cognitive dissonance = inconsistent thoughts, beliefs, or attitudes, especially as relating to behavioral decisions and attitude change.

 

[o_mlly]

Since Jesus says only a few are saved, and we don’t know who the few are, that’s the key point …

Correctly interpreting the gospels is always the key point. On the population of hell, there is some disagreement among theologians. A Catholic in good standding may hold against the conviction that some human beings in fact go to hell.

This position of Balthasar [it is not impossible that even the worst sinners may be moved by God’s grace to repent before they die] seems to me to be orthodox. It does not contradict any ecumenical councils or definitions of the faith. It can be reconciled with everything in Scripture, at least if the statements of Jesus on hell are taken as minatory rather than predictive. Balthasar’s position, moreover, does not undermine a healthy fear of being lost. But the position is at least adventurous. It runs against the obvious interpretation of the words of Jesus in the New Testament and against the dominant theological opinion down through the centuries, which maintains that some, and in fact very many, are lost.
Avery Cardinal Dulles

 

[Latin]

Teresa63,
It seems strange that an almighty being cannot convince a creature he made to do as he wills.
God built into his creatures the flaws that allow them to be damned for all time. We are made the way we are by God, we did not make ourselves.

God bless you NoelFitz and God bless every readers of the CAF.
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In my opinion, you have a very good post, you see the crux of the matter.
I like add to it, and to make clear the crux of the “Fall”.
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You said NoelFitz:
God built into his creatures the flaws …
We are made the way we are by God, we did not make ourselves.
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Eph.1:9-11; He made known to us the mystery of his will according to His good pleasure, which He purposed in Christ,

1. to be put into effect when the times reach their fulfilment—to bring unity to all things in heaven and on earth in Christ.
2. In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will.
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GOD WORKS OUT EVERYTHING IN CONFORMITY WITH HIS ETERNAL PLAN AND WITH THE PURPOSE OF HIS WILL WHICH IS — To bring unity to all things in heaven and on earth in Christ.
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I have to agree with you NoelFitz that God built into his creatures the flaws.

We know this because the “Fall” happened, even they otherwise were very good creations of God.
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We also know, nothing happen in the universe without God’s authorization.

God authorized Satan to deceive Adam and Eve, of course God knew Adam and Eve will be deceived and the “Fall” will happen ACCORDING TO HIS ETERNAL PLAN AND THE PURPOSE OF HIS WILL.
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We may ask the question: What was God’s purpose to authorize Satan to deceive Adam and Eve?

Might add first before answer, God did not ordained Satan to deceive Adam and Eve, God only authorized Satan to deceive Adam and Eve.
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God authorized Satan to deceive Adam and Eve for the reason that He will convert the “Fall” and the effects of it into A GREATER GOOD FOR THE ENTIRE HUMAN RACE. – Which is NOT; apart from a few people Universal Hell.
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CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA Divine providence.

Sin is not ordained by the will of God, though it happens with His permission.

Evil He converts into good (Genesis 1:20; cf. Psalm 90:10); and suffering He uses as an instrument whereby to train men up as a father traineth up his children (Deuteronomy 8:1-6; Psalm 65:2-10;

One reason therefore why God permits sin is that man may arrive at once at a consciousness of righteousness and of his own inability to attain it, and so may put his trust in God (Anon. epis. ad Diog., vii-ix in “P.G.”, II, 1175 sq.; St. Gregory the Great, “Lib. moral.”, III, lvii in “P.L.”, LXXV, 627).

Nor would God permit evil at all, unless He could draw good out of evil (St. Augustine, “Enchir.”, xi in “P.L.”, LX, 236; “Serm.”

Evil, therefore, ministers to God’s design (St. Gregory the Great, op. cit., VI, xxxii in “P.L.”, End quote.
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Continue

 

[Latin]

Continuation
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You also said NoelFitz:
It seems strange that an almighty being cannot convince a creature he made to do as he wills.
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THE ANSWER OF THE TEACHINGS OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH AND THE SCRIPTURE
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RIGHTEOUSNESS AND MERIT by James Akin

Quote: One is saved the moment one is initially justified.

Of course, a Calvinist can say (as a Thomistic Catholic would say) that both cooperations in the giving and the embracing of the eternal call are themselves produced (not just enabled) by God’s grace, and this is perfectly fine.

A Calvinist and a Catholic alike can say that our cooperation is produced (not just enabled) by God’s operation. No problem at all. End quote.
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CCCS = Catechism of the Catholic Church, Simplified.

Explaining Justification
CCCS 1990-1991; Justification is God’s free gift which detaches man from enslavement to sin and reconciles him to God.

Justification is also our acceptance of God’s righteousness. In this gift, faith, hope, charity, and obedience to God’s will are given to us.
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The Grace of God’s Call (1996-1998)
Justification comes from grace (God’s free and undeserved help) and is given to us to respond to his call.

This call to eternal life is supernatural, coming totally from God’s decision and surpassing all power of human intellect and will. End quote.
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John 15:16; You did not chose Me, but I chose you.
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CCC 2019
Justification includes the remission of sins, sanctification, and the renewal of the inner man.
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COUNCIL OF TRENT Session 6 Chapter 8
. . . None of those things which precede justification - whether faith or works - merit the grace itself of justification.
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THE PROCESS OF THE GRACE OF GOD’S CALL (1996-1998)

First: At God’s call, at our Initial Justification, God PERFORMS a heart transplant in us, etc.
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Ez.36:25-28;
25 I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your impurities and from all your idols.

26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh.

27 And I will put my Spirit in you and CAUSE YOU [our cooperation is produced (not just enabled) by God’s operation] TO FOLLOW MY DECREES and be careful to keep my laws. – In the brackets added.

28 Then you will live in the land, I gave your ancestors; you will be my people, and I will be your God. End quote.
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Did you notice NoelFitz:
Ez.36:25-28 addressed to the Nation of Israel that they will live in the land, NOT IN HEAVEN, of course the same principle applies to the PEOPLE of all Nations who are not elected to be members of the Church/Bride of Christ.

Only the Church/Bride of Christ goes to heaven, the members of all the Nations stay here in the New Recreated Earth. – Ez.36:25-28; Dan.7:27; Is.2:4; etc.
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Continue

 

[Latin]

Continuation
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Second: At the point when God gives His grace of Initial Justification/Salvation, God immediately touches and DIRECTLY MOVES THE HEART OF MAN by orienting towards to freely accept and freely choose His grace of Initial Justification/Salvation, every man always responds freely and positively.

This is an infallible work of God in man’s HEART and WILL and man always positively respond and freely cooperates.
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Phil.2:13; “For it is God who works in you BOTH TO WILL and TO ACT for His good pleasure.”
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Aquinas said, “God changes the will without forcing it.
But he can change the will from the fact that He himself operates in the will as He does in nature,” De Veritatis 22:9.
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ST. AUGUSTINE ON GRACE AND PREDESTINATION

De gratia Christi 25, 26:
"For not only has God given us our ability and helps it, but He even works [brings about] willing and acting in us; not that we do not will or that we do not act, but that without His help we neither will anything good nor do it."
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De gratia et libero arbitrio 16, 32:
"It is certain that we will when we will; but He brings it about that we will good. . . . It is certain that we act when we act, but He brings it about that we act, PROVIDING MOST EFFECTIVE POWERS TO THE WILL."

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Similarly, the Council of Orange Canon 25 states, "In every good work, it is not we who begin … but He (God) first inspires us." (#329.2)
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CCC 2022; “The divine initiative in the work of grace PRECEDES, PREPARES, and ELICITS the free response of man. …”
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Our cooperation with the grace of God is produced (not just enabled) by God’s operation.

In other words, when God commands, He capacities the hearer to respond.

Yet the ability to respond is also His gift.
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THE WAY GOD SAVES A PERSON

When God calls and draws an un-regenerated/carnal man into His service/salvation WITHOUT stimulus, merit, or condition and without regard to any future supernatural merits, His calling is backed up with an ABSOLUTE DECREE and in consequence of this DECREE, God gives them all the graces necessary for its accomplishment. – DE FIDE Dogma. + Infallible teachings of the Trent.
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Continue

 

[Latin]

Continuation
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GOD ALREADY DEMONSTRATED HIS ETERNAL PLAN AND WILL OF UNIVERSAL SALVATION IN NINEVEH
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FIRST GOD PROMISED Universal Hell to the people of Nineveh!!!

Jonah 3:4; Jonah began by going a day’s journey into the city, proclaiming, “Forty more days and Nineveh will be overthrown.”
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SECOND: GOD’S LOVE, JUSTICE AND WILL DEMANDS – Universal Salvation in Nineveh!!!

Jonah 4:11; And should I not have concern for the great city of Nineveh, in which there are more than a hundred and twenty thousand people who cannot tell their right hand from their left—and also many animals?
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WITH THE SAME ABOVE PRINCIPLE GOD WILL SAVE EVERYONE
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FIRST: GOD’S PROMISE – Apart from a few people, practically Universal Hell!!!

Matt.7:13-14; Apart from a few people I throw everyone to hell.
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SECOND: GOD’S REPEATED PROMISES of Universal Salvation!!!

Rom.5:18; Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, even so one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.
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1 Cor.15:22; For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all will be made alive.
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Eph.1:9-11; He made known to us the mystery of his will according to His good pleasure, which He purposed in Christ,

1. to be put into effect when the times reach their fulfilment—to bring unity to all things in heaven and on earth in Christ.
2. In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will.
   .
   Col.1:20; And through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.
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Continue

 

[superblue]

It is hard to come to a solid conclusion on what a Pope means based on an interpretation, now had someone came to the Pope and said, do you believe all will be saved, and he said yes, then one has a direct view point on what the Pope is thinking and believes, everything else is just open to interpretation and view points and guessing.

I tend not to read religious books by any authors because they come off as very vague and parableish and convoluted.

But if all will be saved, then what is the point in judgement or having a hell.?