All will be saved

[steve-b]

Just an observation here. I think you guys have been talking past each other rather than talking to or with each other.

1. One seems to be saying " all will be saved" with the implication intentional or not, that there is no possibility of not being saved.
2. The other seems to be saying “all can be saved” with the implication intentional or not, that some people will be saved, and some people will not be saved.

Blessings,
Stephie

Re: #2

Jesus said
Matthew 7:13-14 , Mt 7:13-14 RSVCE - The Narrow Gate - “Enter by the - Bible Gateway
&
Luke 13:23-28 , Lk 13:23-28 RSVCE - And some one said to him, “Lord, will - Bible Gateway

That’s the point I’m making. All have a possibility to be saved but Only a few are saved. That’s Jesus teaching. He ought to know since He is the one who judges EVERYONE. So the view of all are saved, or all will be saved is heresy. That’s been an anathema since the doctrine was formally condemned in the first of the famous anathemas pronounced at the Council of Constantinople in 543: Ei tis ten teratode apokatastasis presbeuei anathema esto [See, also, Justinian, Liber adversus Originem, anathemas 7 and 9.] The doctrine was thenceforth looked on as heterodox by the Church.

 

[o_mlly]

To bring the discussion back to the issue debated.

Catholic soteriology acknowledges the Word of God in that…not all will be saved.

To which I asked:

Your personal interpretations of Scripture are, of course, not binding. Once again, do you have a magisterial citation that supports this claim?

To which no one has provided a magisterial citation. The reason no one can provide a citation is because the Church does not teach as a matter of defined doctrine that “all will not be saved.”

Many have interpreted in error that because the Church teaches Apokatastasis (all free creatures including demons in hell will be saved) is heterodox that all men will not be saved.

With respect to any belief, there are three positions possible:

• True.
• False.
• We do not know.

The Church teaches that salvation is a mystery and we do not know whether all men will be saved or not. Those who teach others about our faith ought not to claim that the Church teaches what she does not.

Let us cast aside what leads to such dead-ends [theologians trying to make sense of things beyond what revelation allows regarding divine judgment and mercy] and limit ourselves to the truth that we all stand under God’s absolute judgment. “I do not even pass judgment on myself”, as Saint Paul says. “The Lord is the one to judge me. So stop passing judgment before the time of his return. He will bring to light what is hidden in darkness” (1 Cor 4:3f.). Not forgetting Saint John: “We should have confidence on the day of judgment” (1 Jn 4:17).
Dare We Hope “That All Men Be Saved”? Hans Urs von Balthasar

 

[steve-b]

To bring the discussion back to the issue debated.

teresa63:

Catholic soteriology acknowledges the Word of God in that…not all will be saved.

To which I asked:

Your personal interpretations of Scripture are, of course, not binding. Once again, do you have a magisterial citation that supports this claim?

To which no one has provided a magisterial citation. The reason no one can provide a citation is because the Church does not teach as a matter of defined doctrine that “all will not be saved.”

When the Church condemns “all will be saved” and you have the references all properly referenced, then that also means that “all will NOT be saved”

o_mlly:

Many have interpreted in error that because the Church teaches Apokatastasis (all free creatures including demons in hell will be saved) is heterodox that all men will not be saved.

You are trying to make a distinction that has no difference.
All will be saved is a heresy. Therefore not all will be saved is a true statement.

o_mlly:

With respect to any belief, there are three positions possible:

• True.
• False.
• We do not know.

The Church teaches that salvation is a mystery and we do not know whether all men will be saved or not. Those who teach others about our faith ought not to claim that the Church teaches what she does not.

The Church condemns the notion that ALL WILL BE SAVED. I gave you the references.
Stop contradicting Church teaching.

o_mlly:

Let us cast aside what leads to such dead-ends [theologians trying to make sense of things beyond what revelation allows regarding divine judgment and mercy] and limit ourselves to the truth that we all stand under God’s absolute judgment. “I do not even pass judgment on myself”, as Saint Paul says. “The Lord is the one to judge me. So stop passing judgment before the time of his return. He will bring to light what is hidden in darkness” (1 Cor 4:3f.). Not forgetting Saint John: “We should have confidence on the day of judgment” (1 Jn 4:17).
Dare We Hope “That All Men Be Saved”? Hans Urs von Balthasar

From the following link

“Catholic teaching is that there are human beings in hell, but that we just do not know “which human beings” they are.”

von Bathasar is also included in the following link, which the link has already been previously given

Are There Souls in Hell Right Now? | Catholic Answers Magazine

As you can see, in that link, papal documents are also given in the explanation

 

[o_mlly]

von Bathasar is also included in the following link, which the link has already been previously given

Are There Souls in Hell Right Now? | Catholic Answers

As I previously replied, Tim Staples is not a bishop. Barron is. And, there are no magisterial documents referenced in Staples’ article supporting your claim.

As I have stated, those Catholics who are “hell-bent” to believe that some or many humans will be in hell may do so. And those Catholics who hope and believe that all mankind will be saved may do so. The Church leaves this question open to theological speculation.

Since we are on Catholic Answers web site, do you disagree with Fr. Grondin’s conclusion?

Hell is indeed real and is a possibility, but whether someone or anyone is there is not something we can really answer. And given that God desires all men to be saved, it is not unreasonable to hope that all men be saved.
Is it reasonable to hope all be saved?

Finally, (and consistently) you misunderstand the anathema you so often cite and use as a strawman in your argument against Balthasar. Balthasar was not a universalist. No one believes that the beings in hell, the demons, will be saved.

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

von Bathasar is also included in the following link, which the link has already been previously given

Are There Souls in Hell Right Now? | Catholic Answers

As I previously replied, Tim Staples is not a bishop. Barron is. And, there are no magisterial documents referenced in Staples’ article supporting your claim.

Did you see the references in the article?

BTW
“a hope or desire does not necessitate even the possibility of a strict fulfillment” that all will be saved. If it did, Jesus lied, and that means the Father lied as well.

see the next sequence of passages

o_mlly:

As I have stated, those Catholics who are “hell-bent” to believe that some or many humans will be in hell may do so. And those Catholics who hope and believe that all mankind will be saved may do so. The Church leaves this question open to theological speculation.

hope or desire does not necessitate even the possibility of a strict fulfillment.

o_mlly:

Since we are on Catholic Answers web site, do you disagree with Fr. Grondin’s conclusion?

Hell is indeed real and is a possibility, but whether someone or anyone is there is not something we can really answer. And given that God desires all men to be saved, it is not unreasonable to hope that all men be saved.
Is it reasonable to hope all be saved?

Is Jesus God? Yes

When Jesus, God incarnate, said

Jn 12:49
For I did not speak of my own accord, but the Father who sent me commanded me what to say and how to say it.

Jn 12:50
whatever I say is just what the Father has told me to say."

Jn 14:10
The words I say to you are not just my own. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work.

So when Jesus said

Matthew 7:13-14 , Mt 7:13-14 RSVCE - The Narrow Gate - “Enter by the - Bible Gateway

13 “Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is easy,[a] that leads to destruction, [ ἀπώλεια, ] and those who enter by it are many. 14 For the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life, and those who find it are few.

Luke 13:23-28 , Lk 13:23-28 RSVCE - And some one said to him, “Lord, will - Bible Gateway

Did Jesus contradict the questioners question? No. He validated it and doubled down on the answer.

So where did that answer ultimately come from? The Father.

o_mlly:

Finally, (and consistently) you misunderstand the anathema you so often cite and use as a strawman in your argument against Balthasar. Balthasar was not a universalist. No one believes that the beings in hell, the demons, will be saved.

You are selling a semi-universalist POV. Fr Longnecker describes that position

Fr. Dwight Longenecker Addresses the Danger of Universalism - Living Faith - Home & Family - News - Catholic Online

Of all the various Hydra heads of modernism, universalism is probably the most insidious and diabolical and destructive The effects of universalism on the church are catastrophic. It's not real ...

www.catholic.org

 

[o_mlly]

Did you see the references in the article?

BTW

“a hope or desire does not necessitate even the possibility of a strict fulfillment” that all will be saved.

Sorry, but quoting Staples words does not elevate his opinion to be magisterial.

If it did, Jesus lied, and that means the Father lied as well.

see the next sequence of passages

Your personal interpretations are not magisterial.

You are selling a semi-universalist POV. Fr Longnecker describes that position

A blogger is also not magisterial.

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

Did you see the references in the article?

BTW

“a hope or desire does not necessitate even the possibility of a strict fulfillment” that all will be saved.

Sorry, but quoting Staples words does not elevate his opinion to be magisterial.

He gives his sources.

If it did, Jesus lied, and that means the Father lied as well.

see the next sequence of passages

o_mlly:

Your personal interpretations are not magisterial.

steve-b:

The sources (pope) and (ecumenical council) were all mentioned. That’s not my interpretation.

You are selling a semi-universalist POV. Fr Longnecker describes that position

o_mlly:

A blogger is also not magisterial.

Fr Longenecker is on Catholic Answers as well as having a blog. Just look him up.

BTW if Fr Longenecker can be dismissed so easily by you, how is it you use Fr Grondin as your source ?

All will be saved Moral Theology

As I previously replied, Tim Staples is not a bishop. Barron is. And, there are no magisterial documents referenced in Staples’ article supporting your claim. As I have stated, those Catholics who are “hell-bent” to believe that some or many humans will be in hell may do so. And those Catholics who hope and believe that all mankind will be saved may do so. The Church leaves this question open to theological speculation. Since we are on Catholic Answers web site, do you disagree with Fr. G…

 

[o_mlly]

BTW if Fr Longenecker can be dismissed so easily by you, how is it you use Fr Grondin as your source ?

I do not dismiss those who speculation is contrary to mine. I dismiss those who claim their speculation is binding on Catholics.

As I have stated, those Catholics who are “hell-bent” to believe that some or many humans will be in hell may do so. And those Catholics who hope and believe that all mankind will be saved may do so. The Church leaves this question open to theological speculation.

 

[NoelFitz]

Thanks to all who contribute here. In CAF we participate to be built up mutually in the faith. We see that there is variety among loyal Catholics, while we agree in essentials. The key issue here is universalism, but, remembering Prof Joad, it depends on what we mean by universalism.
But let us agree that the Pope is a Catholic, but there are threes things even God does not know, how many rosaries the Dominicans say, how rich are the Franciscans, and what the Jesuits are up to. (A joke, don’t get upset).
Just remember God is merciful and all MAY be saved.

 

[Cthompson]

threes things even God does not know, how many rosaries the Dominicans say, how rich are the Franciscans, and what the Jesuits are up to.

I’m loyal to the Dominicans so I appreciate that…and love the Jesuit jab

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

BTW if Fr Longenecker can be dismissed so easily by you, how is it you use Fr Grondin as your source ?

o_mlly:

I do not dismiss those who speculation is contrary to mine. I dismiss those who claim their speculation is binding on Catholics.

As I have stated, those Catholics who are “hell-bent” to believe that some or many humans will be in hell may do so. And those Catholics who hope and believe that all mankind will be saved may do so. The Church leaves this question open to theological speculation.

Bottom line,
The Church does not teach that no one is in hell. It does not teach that hell is empty. It does NOT teach that all will be saved.

God has left us without exact information (as in who specifically, is in hell) . Not that no one is in hell.

 

[o_mlly]

Just remember God is merciful and all MAY be saved.

Amen. For most, the gospel is literally the “good news.” But there are some who do God’s will more out of fear than out of love. For those, the gospel is the “bad news” of hellfire and brimstone.

 

[Latin]

NoelFitz:

Just remember God is merciful and all MAY be saved.

Amen. For most, the gospel is literally the “good news.” But there are some who do God’s will more out of fear than out of love. For those, the gospel is the “bad news” of hellfire and brimstone.

God bless you O_mlly and God bless every readers of the CAF.
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Your post goes to the crux of the matter, I agree with your post O_mlly.
.

The Scripture is like a Violin, we can bring out any kind of sound from it, even false.
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It is up to us what kind of sound we bring out from it, THE GOOD NEWS which liberates us, connects us with Christ, gives us a new horizon and a decisive direction, or THE BAD NEWS which put us into bondage again to fear, into a faithless insecurity, into a fear induced paralyzed state.
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Pope Francis, Evangelii Gaudium, 7:

I never tire of repeating those words of Benedict XVI which take us to the very heart of the Gospel: “Being a Christian is not the result of an ethical choice or a lofty idea, but the encounter with an event, a person, which gives life a new horizon and a decisive direction”. End quote.

The evangelization of the person and of human communities depends totally on this encounter with Jesus Christ.
There is nothing more beautiful than to be surprised by the gospel, by the encounter with Christ. (Pope Benedict XVI)

There is nothing more beautiful than to know Him and to speak to others of our friendship with Him. (Pope Benedict XVI)
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Continue

 

[Latin]

Continuation
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HECTOR MOLINA explains the REASONS and the EFFECTS that Catholics in general don’t have the ‘Personal Encounter with the Lord Jesus Christ.’

I have experienced among Catholics the fear and insecurity because most of the Catholics I know, they doesn’t know they spend eternity in heaven or in the torments of hell and that fear paralyzes them.
.
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The Catholic Answer Magazine has an excellent article Why Catholics Don’t Evangelize.
.

CAM had a joke on the cover which said,

Q: “What do you get if you cross a Catholic with a Jehovah’s Witness?”

A: "Someone who knocks on your door and says nothing."
.
.
Why Catholics Don’t Evangelize:
How to move the stumbling blocks of FEAR and IGNORANCE By Hector Molina

Quote: It’s no secret that Catholics aren’t renowned for their evangelistic prowess or missionary zeal.

This is despite the fact that the last several pontiffs, including Pope Francis, have written and spoken extensively on the subject, which has become a renewed priority for the Church.

In Matthew 28:19, our Lord enjoined the apostles, “[G]o therefore and make disciples of all nations.”

In Mark 16:15, Jesus commands them, “[G]o into all the world and preach the gospel to the whole creation.” This is what is referred to as the Great Commission.

Sadly, for many Catholics, the Great Commission has become the Great Omission.
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Why is this so? Why don’t Catholics as a whole evangelize?

FEAR

If you were to survey a group of Catholics about what holds them back from sharing the Faith, the No. 1 response you would get is “Fear.”

FEAR PARALYZES many believers from living out their faith and sharing it with others.

There is a fundamental principle at work here, one summarized by the old Latin axiom Nemo dat quod non habet (“No one gives WHAT HE DOES NOT HAVE”).

One cannot share Christ if one has not first ENCOUNTERED CHRIST, or effectively share the gospel without experiencing its power in his own life. End quote.
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THE DECISION IS OURS

We can present a Gospel which is a “bad news” which rains hell fire and brimstone and insecurity on the faithful and put them into a fear induced paralyzed state, or we can present a Gospel which is the “Good News” which liberates the faithful, connects them with Christ, gives life a new horizon and a decisive direction.”
.

God bless you O_mlly and God bless every readers of the CAF.

Latin

 

[steve-b]

NoelFitz:

Just remember God is merciful and all MAY be saved.

Amen. For most, the gospel is literally the “good news.” But there are some who do God’s will more out of fear than out of love. For those, the gospel is the “bad news” of hellfire and brimstone.

It’s not either/or it’s both

Ever hear
Fear of God is the beginning of wisdom

If that point is lost, or being blurred, or even discounted today, by ANYBODY, to cause indifferentism, confusion among the faithful because of misapplied or false ecumenism, or false sentimentality towards God, then the ones promoting such error by lowering the bar, rather than keeping the bar high with solid teaching, will find themselves in huge trouble.

 

[steve-b]

THE DECISION IS OURS

We can present a Gospel which is a “bad news” which rains hell fire and brimstone and insecurity on the faithful and put them into a fear induced paralyzed state, or we can present a Gospel which is the “Good News” which liberates the faithful, connects them with Christ, gives life a new horizon and a decisive direction.”
.

God bless you O_mlly and God bless every readers of the CAF.

Latin

for those who have tried to fashion Jesus into an overly pleasant, overly affirming sort of fellow in all situations, rather than the uncompromising God & Lord that He is, thereby setting a low bar for themselves and everyone else, … well, I would suggest, they will have a rude awakening on “the” day… because they have created an idol for themselves.

Ez 3:
17 “Son of man, I have made you a watchman for the house of Israel; whenever you hear a word from my mouth, you shall give them warning from me. 18 If I say to the wicked, ‘You shall surely die,’ and you give him no warning, nor speak to warn the wicked from his wicked way, in order to save his life, that wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood I will require at your hand. 19 But if you warn the wicked, and he does not turn from his wickedness, or from his wicked way, he shall die in his iniquity; but you will have saved your life. 20 Again, if a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits iniquity, and I lay a stumbling block before him, he shall die; because you have not warned him, he shall die for his sin, and his righteous deeds which he has done shall not be remembered; but his blood I will require at your hand. 21 Nevertheless if you warn the righteous man not to sin, and he does not sin, he shall surely live, because he took warning; and you will have saved your life.”

That advice is timeless. No expiration date to it

 

[o_mlly]

Ever hear

Fear of God is the beginning of wisdom

Of course. Ever read the greatest commandment?

 

[JoshuaIsLord]

This is good and pleasing to God our saviour, who wills everyone to be saved and to come to knowledge of the truth. (1 Tim. 2:3-4 NAB)

I’ve always been perplexed by that verse. Either the verse is true or it is a lie.

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

This is good and pleasing to God our saviour, who wills everyone to be saved and to come to knowledge of the truth. (1 Tim. 2:3-4 NAB)

I’ve always been perplexed by that verse. Either the verse is true or it is a lie.

It’s a true desire

But He doesn’t force people to be saved or come to the knowledge of truth. He gave us ALL free will. With that comes our response.

 

[JoshuaIsLord]

It’s a true desire

The desire part is missing.