All will be saved

[whyeyeman]

Utter tripe. If all are saved, why bother converting? Why bother to stop sinning? Why not just commit suicide so you can get to heaven immediately?

“Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few.” - Matthew 7:13-14

 

[JoshuaIsLord]

Utter tripe. If all are saved, why bother converting? Why bother to stop sinning? Why not just commit suicide so you can get to heaven immediately?

“Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few.” - Matthew 7:13-14

Maybe that is why we have the “State of Final Purification” aka Purgatory

 

[JoshuaIsLord]

He gave us ALL free will.

Not entirely sure on that. There are verses that refute that idea.

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

It’s a true desire

The desire part is missing.

Most of the human race’s will is conflicting with God’s will

 

[whyeyeman]

“For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few.”

Life = heaven.
Few enter heaven.

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

He gave us ALL free will.

Not entirely sure on that. There are verses that refute that idea.

Name the verses and let’s talk

 

[steve-b]

whyeyeman:

Utter tripe. If all are saved, why bother converting? Why bother to stop sinning? Why not just commit suicide so you can get to heaven immediately?

“Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few.” - Matthew 7:13-14

Maybe that is why we have the “State of Final Purification” aka Purgatory

That is only for the saved. Those who die in sanctifying grace. They are in with the few.

 

[JoshuaIsLord]

Name the verses and let’s talk

how bout read your bible or google it.
1.1. Ephesians
1.2. Romans
Proverbs 16:9
for starters.

I love this one from Exodus:Exodus 4:21 ESV / 17 helpful votes
And the Lord said to Moses, “When you go back to Egypt, see that you do before Pharaoh all the miracles that I have put in your power. But I will harden his heart, so that he will not let the people go.

Romans 9:16 ESV /
So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.

John 15:16 ESV /l
You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide, so that whatever you ask the Father in my name, he may give it to you.

Then we have some writings:
.2. St. Augustine (354-430) Taught that We Have No Free Will
St Augustine of Hippo is one of the four great founders of Western Christianity1, ‘few men have surpassed’ him in influence on Christianity. He strongly believed in predestination, and Calvin and Luther both owe a great part of their doctrines to St Augustine.
“[No-one] can, of their own power, abstain from sin. Only God’s grace enables men to be virtuous. Since we all inherit Adam’s sin, we all deserve eternal damnation. All who die unbaptized, even infants, will go to hell and suffer unending torment. We have no reason to complain of this, since we all wicked. […] But by God’s grace certain people, among those who have been baptized, are chosen to go to heaven; these are the elect. They do not go to heaven because they are good; we are all totally depraved, except in so far as God’s grace, which is only bestowed on the elect, enables us to be otherwise. No reason can be given why some are saved and the rest damned; this is due to God’s unmotivated choice.”

4.3. Thomas Aquinas (1225-1274)

“Today many thoroughly-instructed Roman Catholics may be surprised to learn that the same appalling doctrine of Divine predestination has been, and presumably still is, an essential element in their faith. Thus Aquinas’ Summa Theologiae contains a Question of ‘Predestination’ in which the Angelic Doctor lays it down that:

As men are ordained to eternal life through the providence of God, it likewise is part of that providence to permit some to fall away [… and] so He also not only gave things their operative powers when they were first created, but is also always the cause of these in things. Hence if this divine influence stopped, every operation would stop. Every operation, therefore, of anything is traced back to Him as its cause.
”

 

[JoshuaIsLord]

And there are a lot more verses that support free will.

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

Name the verses and let’s talk

how bout read your bible or google it.

No need to be snarky

JoshuaIsLord:

1.1. Ephesians
1.2. Romans

Eph 1:1 1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God,
To the saints who are[a] also faithful in Christ Jesus:

Rom 1:2 which he promised beforehand through his prophets in the holy scriptures,
[/quote]

Do you have a point to make here?

JoshuaIsLord:

Then we have some writings:
.2. St. Augustine (354-430) Taught that We Have No Free Will
St Augustine of Hippo is one of the four great founders of Western Christianity1, ‘few men have surpassed’ him in influence on Christianity. He strongly believed in predestination, and Calvin and Luther both owe a great part of their doctrines to St Augustine.
“[No-one] can, of their own power, abstain from sin. Only God’s grace enables men to be virtuous. Since we all inherit Adam’s sin, we all deserve eternal damnation. All who die unbaptized, even infants, will go to hell and suffer unending torment. We have no reason to complain of this, since we all wicked. […] But by God’s grace certain people, among those who have been baptized, are chosen to go to heaven; these are the elect. They do not go to heaven because they are good; we are all totally depraved, except in so far as God’s grace, which is only bestowed on the elect, enables us to be otherwise. No reason can be given why some are saved and the rest damned; this is due to God’s unmotivated choice.”

4.3. Thomas Aquinas (1225-1274)
“Today many thoroughly-instructed Roman Catholics may be surprised to learn that the same appalling doctrine of Divine predestination has been, and presumably still is, an essential element in their faith. Thus Aquinas’ Summa Theologiae contains a Question of ‘Predestination’ in which the Angelic Doctor lays it down that:

As men are ordained to eternal life through the providence of God, it likewise is part of that providence to permit some to fall away [… and] so He also not only gave things their operative powers when they were first created, but is also always the cause of these in things. Hence if this divine influence stopped, every operation would stop. Every operation, therefore, of anything is traced back to Him as its cause.
”

I’ll just say,

By virtue of our soul we are all immortal from our conception. We will all live forever. The question is where will for ever be for each of us. Heaven or hell.

From the foundation of the world, God knew EVERYONE in the book of life. He predestines what He knows. He forces no one nor predestines any soul to hell aside from their choices. From the foundation of the world He knew you and I would be having this conversation. He knows how long we will live, the exact moment of our death, and where we will be in eternity. It’s already predestined based on our choices, NOT opposed to our choices. Those who are going to heaven and are in heaven are the elect. They are comparatively speaking, the few.

 

[Latin]

Latin:

THE DECISION IS OURS

We can present a Gospel which is a “bad news” which rains hell fire and brimstone and insecurity on the faithful and put them into a fear induced paralyzed state, or we can present a Gospel which is the “Good News” which liberates the faithful, connects them with Christ, gives life a new horizon and a decisive direction.”
.

God bless you O_mlly and God bless every readers of the CAF.

Latin

Ez 3:
17 “Son of man, I have made you a watchman for the house of Israel; whenever you hear a word from my mouth, you shall give them warning from me. 18 If I say to the wicked, ‘You shall surely die,’ and you give him no warning, nor speak to warn the wicked from his wicked way, in order to save his life, that wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood I will require at your hand.

That advice is timeless. No expiration date to it

God bless you Steve and God bless every readers of the CAF.
.
Thank you for your post.
.

Ez.3:17-21 is really educational, but I don’t believe anyone can properly understand the meaning/mechanics of it, without first knowing and understand the HIGHEST LEVEL of Catholic teachings on Predestination and Salvation.
.

Spiritual works many times are two persons job, in the case of Ez.3:17-21 one person is the watchman the other person is God and they together working on to change the way of the wicked man who is a slave of sin, enmity with God, spiritually dead and accept nothing from the Spirit of God.
.
.

THE SEQUENCE OF EVENTS TO CHANGE THE WAY OF THE WICKED MAN
.

FIRST EVENT
.
Solely God’s work to recreate the wicked man/make him a new creation as it is described bellow:
.

RIGHTEOUSNESS AND MERIT by James Akin

Quote: One is saved the moment one is initially justified.

Of course, a Calvinist can say (as a Thomistic Catholic would say) that both cooperations in the giving and the embracing of the eternal call are themselves produced (not just enabled) by God’s grace, and this is perfectly fine.

A Calvinist and a Catholic alike can say that our cooperation is produced (not just enabled) by God’s operation. No problem at all. End quote.
.

Ez.36:25-28;
25 I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your impurities and from all your idols.

26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh.

27 And I will put my Spirit in you and CAUSE YOU [our cooperation is produced (not just enabled) by God’s operation] TO FOLLOW MY DECREES and be careful to keep my laws. – In the brackets added.

28 Then you will live in the land, I gave your ancestors; you will be my people, and I will be your God. End quote.
.
Continue

 

[Latin]

Continuation
.

THE FOLLOWING TEXT MODIFIED TO SHOW GOD’S WORKS ON THE WICKED MAN TO MAKE HIM ABLE TO RECEIVE THE WARNING OF THE WATCHMAN
.
First requirement was to detach the wicked man from enslavement to sin and reconcile him to God.

John 15:5; “… for without Me you can do nothing.”
.
Strictly speaking only a person in the STATE OF GRACE can merit, as defined by the Church (Denzinger 1576, 1582).
.
.

CCCS = Catechism of the Catholic Church Simplified.

Explaining Justification
The grace of God’s Justification CCCS 1990-1991; Justification is God’s free gift which detaches the wicked man from enslavement to sin and reconciles him to God.

Justification is also the wicked man acceptance of God’s righteousness. In this gift, faith, hope, charity, and OBEDIENCE TO GOD’S WILL are given to the wicked man.
.

.The Grace of God’s Call (1996-1998)
Justification comes from grace (God’s free and undeserved help) and is given to the wicked man to respond to his call.

This call to eternal life is supernatural, coming TOTALLY from God’s decision and surpassing ALL power of the wicked man’s intellect and will. End quote.
.
.

Aquinas said, “God changes the will of the wicked man without forcing it.
But he can change the will of the wicked man from the fact that He himself operates in the wicked man’s will as He does in nature,” De Veritatis 22:9.
.
Phil.2:13; “For it is God who works in the wicked man BOTH TO WILL and TO ACT for His good pleasure.”
.

In the first event which was solely God’s work, by the recreation of the wicked man who was a slave of sin, enmity with God, spiritually dead and accepted nothing from the Spirit of God to make him a NEW CREATION.
.
The former wicked man now is a NEW CREATION, he received from God the following graces; faith, hope, charity, and OBEDIENCE TO GOD’S WILL + God’s special grace The Gift of Final Perseverance (Phil.1:6; De Veritatis 22:9; etc.), which keeps the former wicked man OBEDIENT TO GOD’S WILL and INFALLIBLE makes sure the former wicked man will die in the state of grace.
.

Now the former wicked man is a recreated, spiritual man, prepared to be OBEDIENT TO GOD’S WILL, he is READY to receive things instructions from the Spirit of God even through fellow humans.
.
Continue

 

[Latin]

Continuation
.
SECOND EVENT
.
The second event is also God’s solely work on the watchman to make him able to warn the former wicked man.

Of course the watchman is already a NEW CREATION having God’s spiritual gifts of faith, hope, charity, and prepared to be OBEDIENT TO GOD’S WILL.
.
.
.
God’s works on the watchman to make him able to warn the former wicked man who is now a NEW CREATION and ready/prepared by God to receive things from the Spirit of God even through the warning of the watchman.
.
THE FOLLOWING TEXT MODIFIED TO SHOW GOD’S WORKS ON THE WATCHMAN FOR THE REASON TO ENABLE THE WATCHMAN TO WARN THE FORMER WICKED MAN
.

Phil.2:13; “For it is God who works in the watchman BOTH TO WILL and TO ACT for His good pleasure to warn the former wicked man.
Who is now a NEW CREATION and God made ready (Initially Justified, having God’s spiritual gifts of faith, hope, charity, and prepared to be OBEDIENT TO GOD’S WILL.) to accept the warnings.”
.
.

ST. AUGUSTINE ON GRACE AND PREDESTINATION

De gratia Christi 25, 26:
"For not only has God given the watchman the ability and helps it, but He even works [brings about] willing and acting in the watchman; not that the watchman do not will or that the watchman do not act, but that without His help the watchman neither will anything good nor do it."
.
De gratia et libero arbitrio 16, 32:
"It is certain that the watchman will when he will; but He brings it about that the watchman will good. . . . It is certain that the watchman act when he act, but He brings it about that watchman act, PROVIDING MOST EFFECTIVE POWERS TO THE WATCHMAN’S WILL."
.

Similarly, the Council of Orange Canon 25 states, "In every good work, it is not the watchman who begin … but He (God) first inspires the watchman." (#329.2)
.
CCC 2022; “The divine initiative in the work of grace PRECEDES, PREPARES, and ELICITS the free response of the watchman. …”
.
In other words, when God commands, He capacities the watchman to respond.
.
The watchman cooperation with the grace of God is produced (not just enabled) by God’s operation.

Yet the ability of the watchman to respond is also His gift.
.

Continue

 

[Latin]

Continuation
.

THIRD EVENT

The third event is solely the work of the watchman who have been prepared by God to warn the former wicked man who is now a NEW CREATION prepared by God to receive the things of the Spirit of God, includes to freely receive the warnings of the watchman.
.
.
The watchman was 100 % prepared by God to warn the former wicked man and he warned the former wicked man.
.
The wicked man was 100 % prepared by God to freely accept the warning and he as God’s NEW CREATION, God’s special grace The Gift of Final Perseverance under his belt, which is an Eternal Protection of his salvation, he accepted the warning with gratitude.
.
.

When we interpret the Scripture in particular predestination and salvation, we must interpret it in the light of the HIGHEST LEVEL teachings of the Catholic Church.
.

We all need warnings and promptings to stay on the right side of God, and we need to do our best and we need to work hard on to do our best.

NOT for our salvation (our salvation is God’s IRREVOCABLE free gift, PROTECTED by His special grace The Gift of Final Perseverance) but out of sheer love for the Glory of God and out of sheer love for others, this is the only Works of Love which is count for anything.
.

God bless you Steve and God bless every readers of the CAF.

Latin

 

[steve-b]

Latin,

To all your pages of commentary,

Ever hear Fear of God is the beginning of wisdom ?

If that point is lost, or being blurred, or even discounted today, by ANYBODY, to cause indifferentism, confusion among the faithful because of misapplied, misguided, or false ecumenism, or false sentimentality towards God, then the ones promoting such error by lowering the bar, rather than keeping the bar high with solid teaching that God established, will find themselves in huge trouble.

I will just say,

For those who have tried to fashion Jesus into an overly pleasant, overly affirming sort of chap in all situations, rather than the uncompromising God & Lord that He is, thereby setting a low bar for themselves and everyone else, … well, I would suggest, they will have a rude awakening on “the” day…

 

[teresa63]

To bring the discussion back to the issue debated.

teresa63:

Catholic soteriology acknowledges the Word of God in that…not all will be saved.

To which I asked:

Your personal interpretations of Scripture are, of course, not binding. Once again, do you have a magisterial citation that supports this claim?

To which no one has provided a magisterial citation. The reason no one can provide a citation is because the Church does not teach as a matter of defined doctrine that “all will not be saved.”

Many have interpreted in error that because the Church teaches Apokatastasis (all free creatures including demons in hell will be saved) is heterodox that all men will not be saved.

 

[teresa63]

o_mlly:
Please note that my statement of “not all will be saved” is not the same as your statement above that “all will not be saved.”

 

[teresa63]

o_mlly:
Jesus Christ taught, and the evangelists recorded in Scripture, that NOT all will be saved.
The Catholic Church teaches what the Word of God speaks; and this is all the “magisterial citation” anyone
SHOULD ever need.

You may parse words anyway you wish, but it cannot change the Truth intended by the Word of God.

 

[o_mlly]

Please note that my statement of “not all will be saved” is not the same as your statement above that “all will not be saved.”

“not all will be saved” = “all will not be saved"
In what respect are the above statements not equal?

 

[o_mlly]

Jesus Christ taught, and the evangelists recorded in Scripture, that NOT all will be saved.

The Catholic Church teaches what the Word of God speaks; and this is all the “magisterial citation” anyone

SHOULD ever need.

Heresy means literally to pick or choose. Heretics fail in understanding Scripture because they take one or a few verses and hold them up as greater than all others as instructive to the faithful. To protect us from these heretics, our Magisterium interprets Scripture as a whole. We very much need our Magisterium.