All You JW's Out There

[Maggie1951]

One thing I know (unless the Governing Body has changed their teaching on this, too!) is…you are not supposed to be wandering around on the I-net. You may ‘catch’ something…LOL…

Remember: Poor association spoils useful habits.

Anyway, I, personally, am glad you’re here. It is the great place to find the answers to the questions you really can’t ask your elders in fear of being watched a bit more closer than your congregants. I understand. I had those questions, too.

One book you will surely find appealing is Crisis of Conscience. Google it. It was written by a former Governing Body Member of (I believe) over FIFTY YEARS! Count them: FIFTY YEARS. Step by step, he goes through YOUR Bible with YOU and truly breaks down all the teachings he was part of formulating.

In it, he goes into all the reasons why you, at times, ask yourself, “Did I hear that right?”…usually, at a Sunday Meeting.

At any rate, take some time, look around. I would suggest a copy of Pillar of Fire, Pillar of Truth". It will answer a lot of the questions you are posing on these forums.

Many of you post on these forums to get in your hours. I know that, you know that, and that is your perogative. However, I must remind you: That is how I, a former dedicated PIONEER really found the Truth. It was here all the time. I just never knew it until I studied the Catholic faith the way I studied the Witness faith. It takes time as you well know, but in the end it will be truly worth it.

I think we must all come together as people who believe in God, people who believe in Jesus Christ, and people who believe in the Holy Spirit, especially in light of the times in which we are living. We are all seeing what I truly believe to be a crossroads in humankind. We now see what is going on in the Middle-East, especially Iraq, Iran, North Korea, etc., now having the capability to destroy the earth as we know it. However, we all know that one day in our lives equals a thousand years in God’s. Revelation is truly a subject in which Catholics are woefully unaware of.

Again, thos JW’s who truly want to know where to go when they leave the congregation, I appreciate your sincere, honest questions. Those who are merely witnessing are also doing those here a great service in that they are forced to look up the answers.

God is truly working His purpose to include all who believe in Him to join Him in everlasting life. One hundred years is but a blink of an eye. Eternity is forever.

Maggie

 

[Hellisreal]

Hello Maggie, what about Revelation are Catholics woefully unaware of?

I must be unaware.

 

[dawgfan]

Hello Maggie, what about Revelation are Catholics woefully unaware of?

I must be unaware.

Yeah, you lost me there too.

 

[dosdog]

Hello Maggie, what about Revelation are Catholics woefully unaware of?

I must be unaware.

Public revelation is binding on all Christians, but private revelation is binding only on those who receive it. The Catholic Church teaches that public revelation was completed, and therefore was concluded, with the death of the last apostle but private revelation has continued.
catholic.com/library/private_revelation.asp

"Throughout the ages, there have been so-called ‘private’ revelations, some of which have been recognized by the authority of the Church. They do not belong, however, to the deposit of faith. It is not their role to improve or complete Christ’s definitive revelation, but to help live more fully by it in a certain period of history.

When the Church approves private revelations, she declares only that there is nothing in them contrary faith or good morals, and that they may be read without danger or even with profit; no obligation is thereby imposed on the faithful to believe them.

Since the Church herself has no providential protection in the area of private revelations, the bishop could be in error. We are not obliged to believe him, or even the Pope himself in such a case.

catholic-pages.com/bvm/private_revelations.asp
catholicculture.org/docs/most/getwork.cfm?worknum=162
catholicplanet.com/apparitions/discernment.htm

What kind of Spirit is at work when someone receives a vision, a revelation, or a more routine favor? To determine this is called the discernment of spirits. It is of great importance to find the right answer. It is evident that there can be three sources: good spirit, evil spirit, auto-suggestion

causes of error in revelations

Faulty interpretation of visions by the recipient- Joan of Arc in prison had a revelation that she would be delivered by a great victory–it was her martyrdom, which she did not suspect.

Human action may mingle with the divine action-St. Catherine Labouré foretold many events correctly, but failed on others

A true revelation may later be altered involuntarily by the recipient-This happens especially with intellectual locutions which need to be translated into words

Secretaries may alter without intending to do so-accuracy of the text is disputed in the works of Mary of Agreda

Causes of False Revelations

Pure bad faith, fakery

Overactive imagination.

Illusion in thinking one remembers things that never happened.

The Devil may give false visions or revelations-Magdalen of the Cross , it all came true–ecstasies, levitation, prophecies, simulated stigmata. At door of death she confessed. Exorcism was needed.

Predictions by falsifiers.-there was an epidemic of prophecy especially on “the great Pope and the great King” inspired by the 17th century commentary on the Apocalypse

degree of certainty or probability is possible?

When God so wills, OT prophets, for they furnished certain signs of their mission

we must work by exclusion-hypnotism, somnambulism, telepathy, thought-reading,

Inquiries to be made about the alleged recipient

What virtues does the person have?

watch out for the work of satan–he may really promote good things for a while, provided that in the long run he gains.

Humility is a major key

Has the person claimed revelations before?

Has the recipient suffered great trials before or after the revelation-Extraordinary graces are very likely to bring great trials, as St. Teresa of Avila remarked,

Has the recipient been fearful of deception, open to Superiors or Director, and never desired revelations?

It is probably good to employ the testimony of expert psychologists as to ecstatic states etc

Is there a revelation of the vices and sins of others? This does not always prove a revelation is false, but calls for careful checking

Is the information useful for salvation of souls? If it is merely to satisfy curiosity it is unlikely to be of divine origin.

Is all in accord with the dignity and gravity of the Divine Majesty? Some alleged revelations descend into vulgar speech

Are there sentiments or peace of disquiet?

Revelations to direct princes or clergy are suspect

1. Signs of the spirit of God: fits with teaching of Church; serious; gives light to the soul, docility, discretion: no hurriedness or exaggerations; humble thoughts; confidence in God, rightness of intention, patience in suffering, self-denial, sincerity and simplicity in conduct, no attachments not even to the gifts, great desire to imitate Christ in all things (a very strong sign), gentleness, kindness;

catholic-pages.com/bvm/private_revelations.asp

 

[yessisan]

Hello Maggie, what about Revelation are Catholics woefully unaware of?

I must be unaware.

Me too

 

[PaulDupre]

I should think that only Catholics and Orthodox can truly understand The Book of Revelation, since a good bit of it concerns the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass (both on earth and in heaven).

 

[Hellisreal]

I think we need clarity here from the OP if she means the book of revelation or private revelation,etc---- and what is it exactly we dont know about it.

My curiousity is highly peaked.:coffeeread:

 

[Hellisreal]

Yeah, you lost me there too.

Me, or Maggie?

 

[dosdog]

I think we need clarity here from the OP if she means the book of revelation or private revelation,etc---- and what is it exactly we dont know about it.

My curiousity is highly peaked.:coffeeread:

Do I have the right Book?

The Reformation Attack on the Bible. The deuterocanonicals teach Catholic doctrine, and for this reason they were taken out of the Old Testament by Martin Luther and placed in an appendix without page numbers. Luther also took out four New Testament books—Hebrews, James, Jude, and Revelation
ewtn.com/library/ANSWERS/DEUTEROS.htm

Even those who favour the Byzantine text cannot be overly impressed with Erasmus’s choice of manuscripts; they are all rather late Not only is 1r an Andreas manuscript rather than purely Byzantine, but it is written in such a way that Erasmus could not always tell text from commentary and based his reading on the Vulgate. Also, 1r is defective for the last six verses of the Apocalypse. To fill out the text, Erasmus made his own Greek translation from the Latin. He admitted to what he had done, but the result was a Greek text containing readings not found in any Greek manuscript – but which were faithfully retained through centuries of editions of the Textus Receptus. This included even certain readings which were not even correct Greek (Scrivener offers as an example Rev. 17:4 AKAQARTHTOS).

Thus it will be conceded by all reputable scholars – even those who favour the Byzantine text – that the Textus Receptus, in all its various forms, has no textual authority whatsoever. Were it not for the fact that it has been in use for so long as a basis for collations, it could be mercifully forgotten. What a tragedy, then, that it was the Bible of Protestant Christendom for close to four centuries!

skypoint.com/~waltzmn/TR.html
bibletexts.com/kjv-tr.htm

 

[dawgfan]

Me, or Maggie?

Maggie. For the same reasons you listed.

My first thought was that she meant that we should know how to respond to groups like the JW’s interpretation of Revelation but after rereading the entire paragraph including the part about (Iraq, Iran, North Korea), I wasn’t sure and thought she needed to clarify.

 

[Hellisreal]

dosdog,

You lost me. I dont know what direction to go in until Maggie lets us poor catholics know where we are woefully unaware of…specifically so I dont have to guess and run around in apologetics circles.

but, your links and stuff are good none the less, I am unsure though, if they address Maggies concerns for catholics.

 

[Hellisreal]

Maggie. For the same reasons you listed.

My first thought was that she meant that we should know how to respond to groups like the JW’s interpretation of Revelation but after rereading the entire paragraph including the part about (Iraq, Iran, North Korea), I wasn’t sure and thought she needed to clarify.

Pheew. Thanks I was getting a little worried there.

Hopefully Maggie will come back to clarify so we can address this.

 

[dosdog]

dosdog,

You lost me. I dont know what direction to go in until Maggie lets us poor catholics know where we are woefully unaware of…specifically so I dont have to guess and run around in apologetics circles.

but, your links and stuff are good none the less, I am unsure though, if they address Maggies concerns for catholics.

Have you ever heard of Bi-Location? We can do both

 

[Hellisreal]

Have you ever heard of Bi-Location? We can do both

Yes, I have heard of it. “we” will not be doing anything of the sort.

I intend to focus on understanding Maggies concerns.

 

[Ravyn_Guiliani]

I think we must all come together as people who believe in God, people who believe in Jesus Christ, and people who believe in the Holy Spirit, especially in light of the times in which we are living. We are all seeing what I truly believe to be a crossroads in humankind. We now see what is going on in the Middle-East, especially Iraq, Iran, North Korea, etc., now having the capability to destroy the earth as we know it. However, we all know that one day in our lives equals a thousand years in God’s. Revelation is truly a subject in which Catholics are woefully unaware of. Maggie

nah–chill…Maggie is just using JW-speak. She is not trying to prophesy or anything. She is trying to reach common ground with JWs who believe this is the END and Bible prophecy is all around us—you know the Left Behind-ers. Catholics are not Dispensationalists, we do not believe in a Millennium of 1000 literal years or a Pre-Trib Rapture. Maggie means that the average Catholic is ill prepared to discuss this subject effectively and apologetically since eschatology is not an urgent issue to us as it is to JWs and other Evangelical/Fundamentalist groups right now. She is trying to appeal to JWs by using their terminology.

Ravyn

 

[Maggie1951]

I should think that only Catholics and Orthodox can truly understand The Book of Revelation, since a good bit of it concerns the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass (both on earth and in heaven).

Those who understand the Mass.

Look around you at Mass someday and ask yourself how many in here actually know what is going on?

I think it was Scott Hahn who said it best: Many people pay good money for a front row seat to the theatre, but how many people actually sit in the front pew when they attend Mass?

I thought that was interesting.

There are many books out that that explain the Mass.

Again, I’ve been ‘away’ for five years or so, so I’m just beginning to catch up to speed.

One other thing: Why don’t Catholics distribute pamphlets after Mass for an hour or two?

Interesting concept. One thing I did was distribute the pamphets during a Rosary Hour we held on Thursdays. It was unbelieveable the number of people who attended that Rosary who did not know what was published in Pillar of Fire, Pillar of Truth.

I found a good way to do this was to volunteer working with the Chaplain at a local hospital. You’d be surprised the number of people who are surprised to find a layperson willing to talk about Catholism! Many who had fallen away from their faith years ago took Pillar of Fire, Pillar of Truth willingly.

Also, there are many ways we can distribute the Catholic Truths.

We, as Catholics, can bear witness to the real Truth…apologetics have been around for a long time…we just didn’t know it. Catholic Answers is relatively ‘new’…at least to me because I found it twelve years ago. I would have never found it had I not been led to it via, like many of you, other routes.

Maggie

 

[dosdog]

nah–chill…Maggie is just using JW-speak. She is not trying to prophesy or anything. She is trying to reach common ground with JWs who believe this is the END and Bible prophecy is all around us—you know the Left Behind-ers. Catholics are not Dispensationalists, we do not believe in a Millennium of 1000 literal years or a Pre-Trib Rapture. Maggie means that the average Catholic is ill prepared to discuss this subject effectively and apologetically since eschatology is not an urgent issue to us as it is to JWs and other Evangelical/Fundamentalist groups right now. She is trying to appeal to JWs by using their terminology.

Ravyn

Online Resources for The Apocalypse of John

earlychristianwritings.com/revelation.html

 

[Hellisreal]

nah–chill…Maggie is just using JW-speak. She is not trying to prophesy or anything. She is trying to reach common ground with JWs who believe this is the END and Bible prophecy is all around us—you know the Left Behind-ers. Catholics are not Dispensationalists, we do not believe in a Millennium of 1000 literal years or a Pre-Trib Rapture. Maggie means that the average Catholic is ill prepared to discuss this subject effectively and apologetically since eschatology is not an urgent issue to us as it is to JWs and other Evangelical/Fundamentalist groups right now. She is trying to appeal to JWs by using their terminology.

Ravyn

Thank you for giving me a better idea of what was being said here.

 

[Hellisreal]

Those who understand the Mass.

Look around you at Mass someday and ask yourself how many in here actually know what is going on?

I think it was Scott Hahn who said it best: Many people pay good money for a front row seat to the theatre, but how many people actually sit in the front pew when they attend Mass?

I thought that was interesting.

There are many books out that that explain the Mass.

Again, I’ve been ‘away’ for five years or so, so I’m just beginning to catch up to speed.

One other thing: Why don’t Catholics distribute pamphlets after Mass for an hour or two?

Interesting concept. One thing I did was distribute the pamphets during a Rosary Hour we held on Thursdays. It was unbelieveable the number of people who attended that Rosary who did not know what was published in Pillar of Fire, Pillar of Truth.

I found a good way to do this was to volunteer working with the Chaplain at a local hospital. You’d be surprised the number of people who are surprised to find a layperson willing to talk about Catholism! Many who had fallen away from their faith years ago took Pillar of Fire, Pillar of Truth willingly.

Also, there are many ways we can distribute the Catholic Truths.

We, as Catholics, can bear witness to the real Truth…apologetics have been around for a long time…we just didn’t know it. Catholic Answers is relatively ‘new’…at least to me because I found it twelve years ago. I would have never found it had I not been led to it via, like many of you, other routes.

Maggie

Apologetics is far from a new thing. Lets think about why Peter said this?
1 Peter 3:15
“always be prepared to make a defense to anyone who asks you to give an account for the hope that is in you”

Justin Martyr, Origen, Jerome, Irenaeus (against heresies ) and on and on and on.

But, you mean laypersons.

Not all laypersons ought to be involved in apologetics. We all have different gifts, treasures and talents.

Yes, proper formation is something we should all be concerned about.

But, we must not fall into false pride and lack humility making judgements against our brothers and sisters.

To even suggest looking around you at Mass and “determining” who knows what is really going on is a slippery slope for the individual who does so.

Mass should never be a place for this kind of activity.:tsktsk:

 

[yessisan]

Apologetics is far from a new thing. Lets think about why Peter said this?
1 Peter 3:15
“always be prepared to make a defense to anyone who asks you to give an account for the hope that is in you”

Justin Martyr, Origen, Jerome, Irenaeus (against heresies ) and on and on and on.

But, you mean laypersons.

Not all laypersons ought to be involved in apologetics. We all have different gifts, treasures and talents.

Yes, proper formation is something we should all be concerned about.

But, we must not fall into false pride and lack humility making judgements against our brothers and sisters.

To even suggest looking around you at Mass and “determining” who knows what is really going on is a slippery slope for the individual who does so.

Mass should never be a place for this kind of activity.:tsktsk:

Ditto that!!