Allah and our God the same God?

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And we have the Magisterium of the Catholic Church backing us up, which is neither biased for nor against Islam and is staffed by people who have undoubtedly studied the issue far more than you. I’m not saying that that makes them right (they’re right regardless of their credentials), but if we’re going to pit credentials against credentials, yours are not on the winning side.

No. The New Age god is a misunderstanding of but a finger of God. Zeus, for example, is not YHWH, but those who believe in Zeus do such because they saw some of the power of YHWH and thought that was the power of an individual distinct from these other sources of power.

In the case of Christianity, Islam, and Judaism, however, we all believe in one God, the almighty, creator of heaven and earth, of all that is seen and unseen, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, the God who led his people the Israelites out of slavery in the Egypt with Moses their prophet, the God who created Adam and Eve from dust. Hence, we all believe in the same God. Jews have an imperfect conception of God and so do Muslims, but I’d venture a guess that the vast majority of Christians don’t really have a very good idea of what they actually believe, nor do any of us, really. Yet that doesn’t mean we’re not worshiping the same God.

Judaism thinks Jesus was at best a wise man, certainly not the messiah, and it is blasphemy to call him the Son of God. They think you are a blasphemer. They clearly have an imperfect conception of God.

Jews call Christians polytheists too, you know.

Who said that? All we said was that we worship the same God, not that worshiping the same God is necessary enough.
I dissagree. When I talk about the sources of Judaism I talk about what we refer to as the Old Testament. In the Old Testament there is not “imperfect truth” but in the light of Christ we can say there is not the fullness of revelation in the OT…
“Full” and “Perfect” are for me two different words that must be used with care in the case of Judaism. So I dont critizise Jewish Revelation, like I do the Moslem, but I can critizise Jewish interpretation, (eg. Talmud) of this Revelation.
But the “divine revelation” and therefore source of Islam is both incomplete, full of error and a contradicion to the Christian Revelation. Therefore there is a world of difference to how I view Islam and Judaism.

About your comparison of who is more credible, me or the magisterium, I find such talk ridiculous. But I will say, what I also said to the other friend here, that to think that the magisterum is certainly studied in Islam is a bold claim in my view.
There was a time in history where even popes would call the Jews terrible names and esteemed theologians too… I am sure that if I had lifted my voice to defend the Jews back then I would have been silenced with the words: “You young and stupid woman, do you think you know better than the bishops?”

You talk about Zeus… but why not tell me why the idol Baal was so hated by God?
Maybe if I say I believe that Zeus created the world and Adam and Eve, you will suddenly say that we worship the same god, you and I?..

I think its absurd to say that islam’s allah and the True God of Abraham, Isac and Jacob was the same.
Look… dont you know what allah says? he says “cursed be those who say that Jesus is the Son of God”. That is islams revelation with a message from the spirit that created it …
What more can I say…
😦
 
Let me remind you that Gallilei was burned on the stake for teaching heresy.
What?! No he wasn’t. He died of natural causes during house arrest.
Neither can I pretend that the image of god that the Muslims worhip is not a false one just for the sake of peace and submission.
Who said the image they have of God is correct? All we’re saying is that the two images share the same identity, not that they are equivalent or the same.
So I trust the Church will also know… and no, I dont take it for granted that cardinals, bishops and priests who have used years studying Christinity and pastoral care has also had the time to study Moslem religion and others… I can hope that the bishops and cardinals in such matters will talk to Catholics who are former moslems… they will give the same logic as I have given.
You don’t think they haven’t talked to just those Catholics? You missed my point entirely. The Catholic Church has spent far more time and effort studying this than you, and they have undoubtedly covered more scholarly ground as well, not to mention all the other evidence which they certainly have in more abundance than one person with just a BA in religion. I’m not trying to belittle you, but you can’t cite yourself as a source when we have a far more authoritative source that says the exact opposite, a source with many professionals spending years of their life dedicated to questions just like this.
 
“Full” and “Perfect” are for me two different words that must be used with care in the case of Judaism. So I dont critizise Jewish Revelation, like I do the Moslem, but I can critizise Jewish interpretation, (eg. Talmud) of this Revelation.
I understand the distinction, I just deny it’s relevant. Both religions have an understanding of God that is not identical to the Christian understanding, and this is not as true as the Christian understanding. Whether the difference be mere deficit or outright error, neither agree with very important parts of Christian revelation. Neither consent to “Three persons in one God,” for example. Yet, this doesn’t change the fact that both religions are referring to “the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.”

Let’s say you and two of your friends know this guy names Joe. Fred over there knew Joe from college way back, you know Joe from a job you’re both working at now, and Greg met Joe a few days ago at a pee-wee baseball game both their kids were at. Fred says that Joe’s an only Child, and so does Greg, but you happen to know that Joe has a brother he’s not on great terms with. Greg also thinks Joe is the manager of the store you and Joe work at but you know Joe’s just the night manager (Greg misheard).

Now, you’re all talking about the same guy, even if Fred can’t remember if Joe has black or dark-brown hair, and even if Greg thinks Joe was coming on to him (Joe is happily married and Greg was reading into the situation). You’re not all correct about how Joe is, but you are all right in knowing who Joe is.

This isn’t an allegory, so don’t try to pick it apart like one, but my point is you can all agree that you know the same person even if you aren’t all in agreement about the specifics of that person.
But the “divine revelation” and therefore source of Islam is both incomplete, full of error and a contradicion to the Christian Revelation.
The Bible and the Quran are in 90% agreement. I’m not saying the Quran is as true as the Bible, but that’s hardly “full of error.”
About your comparison of who is more credible, me or the magisterium, I find such talk ridiculous. But I will say, what I also said to the other friend here, that to think that the magisterum is certainly studied in Islam is a bold claim in my view.
I’m not citing the Magisterium as a source. I’m saying that if we’re going to start citing sources, the Magisterium is a much better source that you. And it is: it’s staffed by professionals with advanced degrees and a lot of time, money, and influence on their hands which would allow them to totally eclipse any amount of research you have been able to do. That doesn’t make it necessary more correct, but neither does your experience in the subject make you more correct, and it’s particularly absurd given that you are on the losing side of a fight of one source against another.

In other words, I don’t want to cite sources at all, since sources can be wrong. However, if we were to start citing sources, you would inevitably fail to match up to the Catholic Church.
You talk about Zeus… but why not tell me why the idol Baal was so hated by God?
Maybe if I say I believe that Zeus created the world and Adam and Eve, you will suddenly say that we worship the same god, you and I?..
Zeus was the son of the titans Rhea and Kronos whom Rhea hid from her husband so that he would not be eaten. Zeus grew in strength until he eventually defeated his father, freed his siblings, tamed the world, and became king of the gods who eventually came to be known as the Twelve Olympians, after Mount Olympus, their home.

Zeus did not create the world, nor did he create Adam and Eve. He is a mythological figure with a very specific timeline. If you think he created Adam, you are either wrong, or you are simply calling YHWH by a different name. The latter case would be weird, but it would be no different from referring to Jesus as Gesu’, the Italian name for Jesus (which is only his name in English, after all).
Look… dont you know what allah says? he says “cursed be those who say that Jesus is the Son of God”.
No, that would be an imperfect herald or a misconstrued revelation. That doesn’t mean we don’t worship the same God.

Let;s go back to the Joe example. Let’s say you meet a guy named John, and John tells you about this guy named Joe. Now, John is a jerk, and he wants you to hate Joe so much that when you see him you’ll want to punch him in the face. So, he describes Joe more or less accurately (after all, his goal isn’t just to make you hate, but to punch Joe in the face), but then he slips in that Joe is a rapist who keeps getting around prosecution. Now you certainly have a terribly skewed idea of who Joe is, but that doesn’t mean you don’t know Joe; you do, albeit through a cruel intermediary with a terrible agenda, and albeit not perfectly, perhaps drastically not perfectly. But when you see him walking down the road, you recognize him immediatelly (John even went so far as to show you Joe’s physical mannerisms and his affectations of speech).

Again, obviously not allegorical, but you don’t need to learn of Joe perfectly to know Joe. Plenty of Christians learn of Christ from parents who don’t really know what they’re talking about and they stress God’s punishment and concepts of eternal damnation, leaving out God’s mercy and love entirely. Those children grow up with a very incomplete idea of what God is, and yet they still pray to God, not to some chimera.
 
Hi everyone,
Great replies from you all,I have learnt a lot and will study all replies, many thanks,
God Bless,
Mick.
 
Do you, therefore, oppose the Magisterium of the Catholic Church in this matter?
Grace is saying we should evangelise Muslims. In that she is quite right - Benedict says that Muslims have a right to hear the Gospel of Jesus.

There is too much talk about the Allah being One God and the same as the Christian god. Essentially if they do not believe in Jesus, incarnate, crucified and resurrected they are outside the knowledge and belief of Jesus as our saviour. Their Jesus is a prophet of Islam who will destroy Christianity.

While there are some commonalities, Creator etc this doesn’t change the differences which are the most significant. Also Nostra Aetate says the word ‘who profess’ in the discourse. Becasue someone professes something it doesn’t mean it is the same as what someone else professes or means the same. Nostra Aetate is ‘open’ is doesn’t imply acceptance or denial of the god Allah being like similar or the same as the Chrisitan God. Cardinal George Pell states in principle it is the same, but he has significant reservations. I guess if the Muslim praying believes he is praying to the same God but has partial information then his/her intention is there, if they believe they pray to Allah who is not the same then that is there intention, depends on the heart. But the theology…does not compute.
 
The details of the being identified by Greek mythology are very different to the being identified by Christian faith, and different again from the being called God/Allah in Islam.

What Christians and Muslims have in common, however, is the belief in one God, one alone worthy of worship, one creator, one supreme good.

Is Allah the same as God? Yes, it’s just a translation.

Is the Allah of the Quran the same as the God of the Bible? Not entirely.
The god Allah being One God in the Arabic translation is Tawhid. This is absolute One ness. The greatest sin in Islam is to believe that Allah has any partners - the sin of shirk. This is absloute oneness is stated in the call to prayer. If is a rejection (in knowledge of the Christian God, Father son and Holy Spirit, as they knew about this from the beginning) of the divinity of Christ. They will say our God is your God to replace our understanding of Christ with their own understanding of Tawhid. This rejection of Christ is not ignorance on their part it was there from the beginning and not from a lack of knowledge of who Christ was taught to be.

Allah is Tawhid, not one god in the Christian sense.
 
benedicter;3645450:
Provide evidence for this. So far it’s just your own wild claim. Why should anyone believe you?

You will also need to explain how the concept of “dhimmitude” can apply to Christians and Jews on the basis of their being “people of the Book” (and hence worthy of limited toleration), if “people of the Book” applies only to some hypothetical “Christians with uncorrupted Scriptures.”

Edwin
This isn;t a wild claim. This is correct Muslim teaching. the People of the Book are Christians. The Book they refer to is not the Gospel as we know it but the Injil. The Injil is the book that Jesus gave us that gave the truth of Islam, but we rejected it. Paul is the supposed culprit here who corrupted Christians and introduced the Gospels. The Jews also are guilty of having corrupted scriptures. It is because we have rejected the Injil and follow the false teachings of the Gospel that we are Dhimmis. We are guilty of not accepting the truth of Islam. For Islam everyone is Muslim, from Adam and Eve all are Muslim. You don’t convert to Islam, you revert to it. We as Christians are in Islams opinion being obtuse and difficult in not accepting the truth of Islam and following the false Gospel. We have Jesus so partial truth but we believe terrible things about him, are guilty of the heinous sin of shirk. Again, Jesus is a prophet of Islam not Christianity - a huge difference.
 
It’s not like there’s a pantheon. There is only one God. Everything else is a creature. If you send up a prayer to “God” (Supreme Being, Creator of the Universe) there is only place for it to go.

Now, I’m willing to entertain the idea that Quran was transmitted to Mohammed by some creature other than God (In fact I stake my soul on it) and I believe that if a pagan throws up a prayer to Isis or Odin and gets an answer, it is almost certainly a demon responding.

But there is only occupant of the office of “author of existence.” All monotheism has at least that much right, whatever other errors or omissions may be found.

I am reminded of calls and offers I receive at work. Some are addressed to me by name, some to “owner,” some to a previous owner, and some to a garbled name that ended up on a mailing list somehow. They all come to me. There are those that have the idea that it is a corporate entity, and some think it a sole proprietorship, and some know that it is a Limited Liability Company. Many are wrong about the nature of the entity that owns the business, but the calls still come to the owner.
This is a great way of looking at it. I would say that a prayer sent up in ignorance of who God is is one thing, natural law applies.Prayer - through Judaism as Jews are a covenant people and God has not rejected the Covenants - is a unique situation. But in light of full rejection of Jesus, I have difficulty understanding, apart from the Mercy of God, that natural law applies here. Isn’t this the Muslim situation. But there must be room here, the Mercy of God, to read the human heart?
 
Hi All,

So Christians, Jews and Muslims can pray together knowing that they are praying to the same One God.

Verbum
This is were it all goes wrong. Particularly, Muslims and Christians should not pray together. Each in their own space. And certainly not in our sacred spaces, Catholic sanctuaries and Churches.
 
In the case of Christianity, Islam, and Judaism, however, we all believe in one God, the almighty, creator of heaven and earth, of all that is seen and unseen, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, the God who led his people the Israelites out of slavery in the Egypt with Moses their prophet, the God who created Adam and Eve from dust. Hence, we all believe in the same God. Jews have an imperfect conception of God and so do Muslims, .
Wrong. Jews and Christians worship the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob the Mulsims don’t. They worship the god of Abraham, Ishmael etc, Moses in Islam was a Muslim as were all the other prophets. apart from the same names used in the Quran all over the place the individuals and statements and the little narrative there is bears not resemblance to the Old Testament prophets and their works and stories. Jews are a Covenant people, Christians are a Covenant people.
 
Hi everyone,
Great replies from you all,I have learnt a lot and will study all replies, many thanks,
God Bless,
Mick.
I would think you are fairly confused!!!

I would say the bottom line is, respect Muslims, they need our love as everyone does. Teach them the truth about Christianity, they like you to share your faith. Their are areas that you can talk, talk about God’s nature being love, for them it is only an attribute. For them sin is a spot you can rub off, for us it is something we need to repent. They will be fascinated that God relates to you, your prayers are answered, talk about prayer. They have no expectation of communion with god or prayers answered. Ask them if there is something personal that you can pray for on their behalf. I have a feeling God would take that opportunity to answer!!! Don’t get into the Trinity, and they tend to stay with subjects where they feel they have the high ground. Praying for them is a charitable and helpful thing to do - go to it. But please don’t cross the line on your own faith, Jesus is not a prophet!!!
 
I must say I do, until the good Lord deigns to enlighten my heart otherwise. I don’t like to be in that situation but I cannot with good conscience agree to a stance that so contradicts everything I have concluded based on my academic studies as well as my approach to both Christianity and Islam as a person rooted in the faith in Christ.

You know Truth and know that no lie comes from the Truth.
(1. John 2: 21)
I could quote much Scripture to substantiate my conclusion but you can read your Bible and don’t need me to teach you.:bible1:
This seems disturbingly similar to the words of Martin Luther at the Diet of Worms and of those who reject Humane Vitae (just like how you seem to reject Nostra Aetae) or support homosexual marriage.

Are you saying that the holy Magisterium is wrong on a matter of theology?
Yes or no?
 
This is a great way of looking at it. I would say that a prayer sent up in ignorance of who God is is one thing, natural law applies.Prayer - through Judaism as Jews are a covenant people and God has not rejected the Covenants - is a unique situation. But in light of full rejection of Jesus, I have difficulty understanding, apart from the Mercy of God, that natural law applies here. Isn’t this the Muslim situation. But there must be room here, the Mercy of God, to read the human heart?
Interesting. And I do hear Muslims referring to God as “merciful” often. For myself, in asking for mercy I almost invariably address the prayer to Jesus specifically.

Although I ask the Holy Spirit for guidance and the Father for the strength to carry out his will; these will frequently, verbally or not, be addressed to “God” generically.
 
Grace is saying we should evangelise Muslims. In that she is quite right - Benedict says that Muslims have a right to hear the Gospel of Jesus.

There is too much talk about the Allah being One God and the same as the Christian god. Essentially if they do not believe in Jesus, incarnate, crucified and resurrected they are outside the knowledge and belief of Jesus as our saviour. Their Jesus is a prophet of Islam who will destroy Christianity.

While there are some commonalities, Creator etc this doesn’t change the differences which are the most significant. Also Nostra Aetate says the word ‘who profess’ in the discourse. Becasue someone professes something it doesn’t mean it is the same as what someone else professes or means the same. Nostra Aetate is ‘open’ is doesn’t imply acceptance or denial of the god Allah being like similar or the same as the Chrisitan God. Cardinal George Pell states in principle it is the same, but he has significant reservations. I guess if the Muslim praying believes he is praying to the same God but has partial information then his/her intention is there, if they believe they pray to Allah who is not the same then that is there intention, depends on the heart. But the theology…does not compute.
Evangelize Muslims, absolutely. Bring them to Christ absolutely. Such is needed for their salvation.

But rejecting a Church pronouncement from an Ecumenical Council or putting some spin on it to make it say something else is nothing short of disloyalty to the Church Christ founded. Nostra says: Muslims adore the one God.

Are the Muslims wrong? Absolutely, on many counts. Their theology is terribly skewed and their perception of God is horribly distorted. But ultimately if you ask them: Do you worship the God of Abraham, whoever he is? They will answer with a vehement “Yes”. The Church in her judgment has determined that at least on that point we worship the same God as the Muslims and Jews.
 
Look porthos.
Obviously I cannot go against my own conscience and what I know. Let me remind you that Gallilei was burned on the stake for teaching heresy. He could not pretend that the earth was not round when he knew it was. Neither can I pretend that the image of god that the Muslims worhip is not a false one just for the sake of peace and submission. I am sure you dont imply that I should.
No he was not burned at the stake. Reread your history.
As you said: The magisterium has not ruled infallibly on the matter. Its my conviction that if they ever do, it will be with a good understanding of the moslem revelation… an understanding that history has only recently called for with much intensity and urgency.
Its beyond my comprehension why people can not amen the fact that a god is revealed through supernatural revelation and that that revelation will mirror what spirit is the author of it.
That does not give us the right to dissent from an Ecumenical Council duly approved by the Holy Father.

God is also revealed through nature. The Muslims also know God from supernatural revelation, which is the Tanakh and the Bible, but have twisted it into their own heretical theology.
So I trust the Church will also know… and no, I dont take it for granted that cardinals, bishops and priests who have used years studying Christinity and pastoral care has also had the time to study Moslem religion and others… I can hope that the bishops and cardinals in such matters will talk to Catholics who are former moslems… they will give the same logic as I have given.
I am sorry if I disturb your peace brothers and sisters, but I cannot deny what I see as evident.
No matter. You are dissenting from a pronouncement of an Ecumenical Council of the Church, instead of humbly submitting your understanding, you insist on your own opinion. And in no case is this ever a good thing. I don’t like the pronouncement either, but there it is. I see only one thing as evident: The Church has spoken. If one day it reverses this pronouncement, then so will I reverse my assent. But never before then.
 
The Church in her judgment has determined that at least on that point we worship the same God as the Muslims and Jews.
Wrong. You are over stating the church’s position. They do not say we worship the SAME God. Their statement is open and not restrictive to same. ‘They worship the One God’ …is not 'They worship the same God."
 
Wrong, Benedicter and everyone else who believe Muslims worship a different God than us.

The official Church teaching on Muslims is found not only in the Catechism of the Catholic Church but also in the Dogmatic Constitution on the Church. It reads:

The Church’s relationship with the Muslims. “The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day.” (CCC, 841)

The one merciful God is the only living God, the God, God. For God is God, and he is the only God. There is no other like God. So you can’t say Muslims worship another god, or Muslims worship the devil. They worship God. It’s the teaching of the Church. Period.
 
Wrong. You are over stating the church’s position. They do not say we worship the SAME God. Their statement is open and not restrictive to same. ‘They worship the One God’ …is not 'They worship the same God."
Nostra Aetate states it very plainly. Read it again:

“[Muslims] adore the one God.”

That’s verbatim. Last time I checked, whenever the Church says “the one God” she means the ONLY God. In Lumen Gentium, the Council is even more explicit with its damning phrase, “together with us, they adore the one, merciful God.”

That Magisterial teaching is impossible if we adore different gods. How much plainer does the Church need to be?
 
90% of the Quran agrees with the Bible, you know.
:tsktsk: Well, I think you should make that “90% of the Quran doesn’t agree with the Bible”, see these major contradictions:

The Bible:
01- Affirms Trinity (Matthew 28:18-20).
02- Jesus was crucified.
03- God calling Jesus his Son (Mark 1:11).
04- Polygamy is adultery (Matthew 19:3-12).
05- No marriage in Paradise, humans will be like angels (Matthew 22:30).
06- No killing of any sort (NT), Jesus was healing people.
07- Lots of miracles for Jesus.
08- God does not change his mind, and Jesus words never pass away (Numbers 23:19) & (Mark 13:31).
09- Jesus teaching us not to swear (James 5:12).
10- No eye for eye, (Matthew 5:38-39).
11- Jesus was born in a manger (Luke 2:11-12).
12- Christians are children of God (Matthew 5:9) & (Galatians 3:26).
13- No Jinns creatures.
14- Noah’s wife was not a sinner, (Genesis 6:18).
15- Noah had no sinner son, (Genesis 7:1).
16- Noah total years before the flood 600 years & after the flood 350 years (950 years in total) (Genesis 9:28-29).
17- Aaron, Moses and their sister Miriam (NOT Jesus’ mother) are the children of Amram whom born around 1500 years before Jesus (Numbers 26:59).
18- If someone leaves Christianity, no death punishment (Matthew 10:14).
19- Pray alone in your room, (Matthew 6:5-7).
20- God love stories (Luke 15:3-32), (Matthew 5:45).

** Quran:**
01- Rejects trinity, (Quran 05:73).
02- Jesus was not crucified, (Quran 04:157).
03- Jesus is no more than a normal messenger, (Quran 04:171).
04- Unlimited polygamy & divorce are allowed (up to 4 wives at a time), plus unlimited right-hand-posses (concubine or bought), (Quran 04:03).
05- Marriage (sex) & lots of virgins in paradise, (Quran 44:54), (Quran 55:56).
06- Smite heads, slay, fight, and terror, (Quran 47:4), (Quran 09:5), (Quran 09:29), (Quran 03:151).
07- No miracles for Muhammad, (Quran 17:90-93).
08- Allah can substitute his words or cause to be forgotten, (Quran 02:106), (Quran 13:39).
09- Swear as you like, (Quran 05:89).
10- Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth, (Quran 05:45).
11- Jesus was born under a palm tree, (Quran 19:22-24).
12- Muslims are slaves of Allah, (Quran 44:18).
13- There are creatures called Jinns (Jinns can be Muslims), (Quran 51:56), (Quran 72:14).
14- Noah’s wife was a sinner, (Quran 66:10).
15- One of Noah’s sons was a sinner and punished by the flood (Quran 11:42-46).
16- Noah total years before the flood were 950 years, (Quran 29:14).
17- Miriam (Jesus’ mother) is a sister of Aaron & a daughter of Amram whom born around 1500 years before Jesus, (Quran 19:28), (Quran 66:12).
18- Death is the punishment if someone leaves Islam, (Quran 09:12).
19- Pray standing with groups in the street, (Quran 02:43), (Quran 04:102).
20- Allah is Makkar (deceptive/guile), (“plan” is a wrong English translation), (Quran: 07:99), (Quran: 08:30).
 
And yes, we do worship Allah in the Melkite Liturgy. We knew Allah long before the Muslims came along. !
Dear Ghosty,

I’m a Muslim making my way into Christianity (more details in my signature link), however, I was really searching for a Scripture who used the word “Allah” before us (Muslims), because during my research on the origin of the word “Allah”, I came through different results, like the moon god, a curse in Hebrew, and a chief god over the 360 idols that were in Mecca before Islam.

I’ll be really grateful if you could till me from your “Melkite Liturgy” Scripture the following:
  1. Was your Scripture written BEFORE Islam, (i.e., before 610AD)?
  2. What was the original language for those Scriptures?
  3. I don’t know if you read Arabic or not, but is the word Allah in your Scripture is EXACTLY the same one we are using in Islam?
  4. Do you have a website to “Melkite Liturgy” Scriptures?
I’m really in a big dilemma about the name Allah, to the point that I’ve substituted it with “God The Most High” in all my prayers, therefore, I will be grateful if you can help me with that.

Sam
 
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