Allah and our God the same God?

[Contarini]

Dear Ghosty,

I’m a Muslim making my way into Christianity (more details in my signature link), however, I was really searching for a Scripture who used the word “Allah” before us (Muslims), because during my research on the origin of the word “Allah”, I came through different results, like the moon god, a curse in Hebrew, and a chief god over the 360 idols that were in Mecca before Islam.

The “moon god” thing is a load of nonsense. It is a fundamentalist Christian misreading of the evidence. The allegation (I don’t even know if this is true, but I see no reason to doubt it) is that some Arabs who worshiped the moon god used the phrase “el ilah” or “the god” for the moon god, since they regarded him as the supreme deity. “El ilah” is allegedly the etymology of “Allah.” However, the fact that one group of moon-god worshipers called him “the God” does not mean that any time an ancient Arab said “the God” he was talking about the moon god. All the evidence indicates that “Allah” was the ancient Arab term for the supreme Deity. Ancient Arabs, like traditional Africans, believed in a supreme deity and a lot of lesser beings. It is perfectly reasonable that both Muslims and Christians used this word for the supreme Deity to refer to the God of Abraham.

I have noticed that a lot of Muslims use superficial, even trivial arguments of this nature (such as the frequent claims–bogus as far as I know–that the Qur’an somehow anticipates modern scientific knowledge). I would encourage you not to convert to a form of Christianity that thinks on this level. The question is not where the name “Allah” came from. The question is: who is right about the nature of Allah and how He has revealed Himself to us? Christians believe that Allah has revealed Himself to us primarily in Jesus Christ. If you don’t believe this, you have no reason to become a Christian. (If you are dissatisfied with Islam for other reasons, you might consider exploring Judaism or some other monotheistic religion such as Sikhism, Zoroastrianism, or Bahai.) You are considering conversion to Jesus Christ, not to a theory about the etymology of the name “Allah.”

Yours truly,

Edwin Tait

 

[BlaineTog]

:tsktsk: Well, I think you should make that “90% of the Quran doesn’t agree with the Bible”, see these major contradictions:

Yes, those would be the 10%.

 

[Usagi]

: 17- Miriam (Jesus’ mother) is a sister of Aaron & a daughter of Amram whom born around 1500 years before Jesus

Hmm. Technically, those passages only say that Miriam (Jesus’ mother) had a brother named Aaron and a father named Amram, not that they were the same ones who lived 1500 years earlier.

Still, I agree that the Quran there is most likely getting Miriam the mother of Jesus confused with Miriam the sister of Moses.

You’re obviously more familiar with the Quran than I am (being a Muslim coming into Christianity) – is there a larger context there which makes it clear that the text is mixing up these two figures?

Usagi

 

[Mystic_Warrior]

He’s studied it more than you seem to have.

Nostra Aetate:

1. The Church **regards with esteem **also the Moslems. They adore the one God, living and subsisting in Himself; merciful and all- powerful, the Creator of heaven and earth,(5) who has spoken to men; they take pains to submit wholeheartedly to even His inscrutable decrees, just as Abraham, with whom the faith of Islam takes pleasure in linking itself, submitted to God. Though they do not acknowledge Jesus as God, they revere Him as a prophet. They also honor Mary, His virgin Mother; at times they even call on her with devotion. In addition, **they await the day of judgment when God **will render their deserts to all those who have been raised up from the dead. Finally, they value the moral life and worship God especially through prayer, almsgiving and fasting.
   Since in the course of centuries not a few quarrels and hostilities have arisen between Christians and Moslems, this sacred synod urges all to **forget the past **and to work sincerely for mutual understanding and to preserve as well as to **promote together for the benefit of all mankind social justice and moral welfare, as well as peace and freedom. **

You worship the same God – learn to love it.

I wanted to BOLD certain parts of this as it relates to the topic at hand. If I interpret this (as we all must do to understand what is being said) it seems to me that this document is linking some things that Christians and Moslems hold in common - theism, morality, prayer, fasting, almsgiving, judgment and social betterment while there is disagreement over Jesus as the Son of God.

Which to me makes it read like a politically correct document meant to bring cohesion between the two faiths to avoid a religious war which seems a possibility in the future. Hence, the use of the “forget the past” phrase. It’s little more than a political document to me, while it is binding from the magisterium to you.

What it doesn’t say to me is that we worship the same God with the same character and nature. His character and nature as revealed in these two religions are dramatically different. So, I have to say that we worship two different Gods. A cannot be both A and B at the same time and in the same sense. Christianity - A, Islam - B

Peace…

MW

 

[Nickkname]

So dose everyone agree that Muslims worship God along with Christians? Since the Church CLEARLY teaches this.

To reiterate the Church’s teaching, here are the passages from the Catechism of the Catholic Church, Nostra Aetate (Declaration on the Relation of the Church to Non-Christian Religions), and Lumen Gentium (Dogmatic Constitution on the Church):

The Church’s relationship with the Muslims. “The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day.”

• CCC, 841

Source: vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/_P29.HTM#2FM

The Church regards with esteem also the Moslems. They adore the one God, living and subsisting in Himself; merciful and all- powerful, the Creator of heaven and earth…

• NA, 3

Source: vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_decl_19651028_nostra-aetate_en.html

But the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator. In the first place amongst these there are the Mohamedans, who, professing to hold the faith of Abraham, along with us adore the one and merciful God, who on the last day will judge mankind.

• LG, 16

Source: vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19641121_lumen-gentium_en.html

 

[Nickkname]

I’m going to keep repeating myself until the teaching of the Church sinks in. I have all day too.

 

[Mystic_Warrior]

I’m going to keep repeating myself until the teaching of the Church sinks in. I have all day too.

Do you have any reflections on my post earlier where I described what I think the document was trying to say? I guess the question really is: Is the church really teaching what you say it teaches according to the documents themselves? Because it doesn’t really explain in detail, just in generalities.

Peace…

MW

 

[BlaineTog]

I guess the question really is: Is the church really teaching what you say it teaches according to the documents themselves?

Yes. Yes it is. Explicitly, clearly, and obviously. It isn’t saying that we both have the same conception of God, in the same way that I can think Joe is a nice guy and you can think he’s kinda a jerk sometimes, but it’s clearly trying to say that despite our differences, we’re calling the same phone number.

 

[Nickkname]

Do you have any reflections on my post earlier where I described what I think the document was trying to say? I guess the question really is: Is the church really teaching what you say it teaches according to the documents themselves? Because it doesn’t really explain in detail, just in generalities.

Peace…

MW

The Catechism is a systematic presentation of the teachings of the Church. Just by quoting it alone I have presented what the Church clearly teaches. But I wanted to quote the other two documents because some people don’t accept the Catechism and other people believe two or three witnesses is necessary to prove the truth. So now that I’ve shown that the Church teaches that Muslims worship God, it’s just a matter of who doesn’t accept what the Church teaches.

 

[Mystic_Warrior]

Yes. Yes it is. Explicitly, clearly, and obviously. It isn’t saying that we both have the same conception of God, in the same way that I can think Joe is a nice guy and you can think he’s kinda a jerk sometimes, but it’s clearly trying to say that despite our differences, we’re calling the same phone number.

Everybody keeps saying that, yet no one responds directly to my earlier post where I thought I gave a different analysis than what has been offered previously. I’m interested at looking at the verbage used and looking at it in a wider context. If it is saying what you say it is, then it should be apparent to everybody.

But, like any document or conversation, people will hear or see different things. It’s not a matter of someone being unintelligent. It’s a matter of ambiguous conversation or text. I think the document in question lacks definitiveness and actually allows for the ambiguity I’m speaking of.

Peace…

MW

 

[Mystic_Warrior]

The Catechism is a systematic presentation of the teachings of the Church. Just by quoting it alone I have presented what the Church clearly teaches. But I wanted to quote the other two documents because some people don’t accept the Catechism and other people believe two or three witnesses is necessary to prove the truth. So now that I’ve shown that the Church teaches that Muslims worship God, it’s just a matter of who doesn’t accept what the Church teaches.

Yes, it is a presentation and systematic (just like the Bible) - one that you have to interpret through your brain and eyes, culture and context. I’m still waiting for someone to respond to my earlier objections instead of saying (repeatedly) that the Church says so and so and that is enough. It could say the grass is green all over. But, in Atlanta your grass is dried and withered up.

Peace…

MW

 

[benedicter]

Yes. Yes it is. Explicitly, clearly, and obviously. It isn’t saying that we both have the same conception of God, in the same way that I can think Joe is a nice guy and you can think he’s kinda a jerk sometimes, but it’s clearly trying to say that despite our differences, we’re calling the same phone number.

This is rubbish. You are still overstating the Churches position.I quote from Fr Mitch Patchwa, Daniel Ali and Robert spencer “Inside Islam: A Guide for Catholics” - p 84. Question “Doesn’t the Catechism of the Catholic Church teach that all religions including Muslims worship the one true God to a greater or lesser degree?”

Answer - Not precisely…"The first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham"
This statement is not saying that Muslims actually believe in Abraham’s faith, but only that they professto hold the faith of Abraham. professing and possessingare two different things…

Further -

“Together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day.”

Answer - “Again, this statement is very carefully worded: it does not say that Muslims adore the same God, but only that, like us “they adore the one merciful God, but only that, like us, 'they adore the one merciful God.” Strictly speaking, the Catechism simply does not address the question of whether Allah as worshiped in Islam is truly the same God revealed in the Old and New Testaments.”

John Paul alluded that they might be.

But the position is clear: you can’t go accusing people of being unfaithful to the Church catechism etc if they don’t believe they are the same nor can you accuse people if they think they are.

Clearly, Fr Mitch Pachwa is a faithful priest and also Cardinal George Pell of Sydney is a very orthodox Cardinal holds that they ‘might be’ ‘with reservations’ - so here two excellent priests of the Church who are holding an open opinion.

That is what I am arguing for an open opinion.

 

[benedicter]

But, like any document or conversation, people will hear or see different things. It’s not a matter of someone being unintelligent. It’s a matter of ambiguous conversation or text. I think the document in question lacks definitiveness and actually allows for the ambiguity I’m speaking of.

Peace…

MW

Exactly, it was meant to hold the issues open.

 

[benedicter]

I’m going to keep repeating myself until the teaching of the Church sinks in. I have all day too.

Doesn’t matter - I agree with Cardinal Pell, Daniel Ali (ex Muslim), Robert Spencer (Catholic scholar on Islam) and Fr Mitch Pacwa.

On the other hand there will be plenty who want to push the boat your way - Karen Armstrong, John Espostio no doubt.

Point being the Church lets you hold your own opinion - we can argue for ever but the Church is not definitive.

So blog or day - you are missing the point.

 

[benedicter]

But rejecting a Church pronouncement from an Ecumenical Council or putting some spin on it to make it say something else is nothing short of disloyalty to the Church Christ founded. Nostra says: Muslims adore the one God.

There is no spin - this is unfair to take this line, and sum up as ‘disloyalty to the Church’. Again it is an open statement. We just leave it alone. We can discuss the differences in theology but the Church doesn’t conclusively decide the Gods are the same.

 

[benedicter]

No matter. You are dissenting from a pronouncement of an Ecumenical Council of the Church, instead of humbly submitting your understanding, you insist on your own opinion. And in no case is this ever a good thing. I don’t like the pronouncement either, but there it is. I see only one thing as evident: The Church has spoken. If one day it reverses this pronouncement, then so will I reverse my assent. But never before then.

I think you have been incredibly hard on Grace, without a leg to stand on. She is free to have her opinion as are you, the Church is not conclusively agreeing with either of you. But you are accusing her of disloyalty…unwarranted.

 

[Aaron409]

Yes, they are the same God, even if we have slightly different conceptions of Him.

Jesus Christ is God so no they are not the same at all.

 

[HashemEchad]

Hello one and all,
Can someone enlighten me?,I would like to know if the Muslim’s Allah is the same God as ours but under another name?What I am trying to say is are they the same?I ask this question with great respect as I do not wish to offend anyone,Catholic or Muslim.I do hope you can help as this has puzzled me for a long while.
God Bless,
Mick.

I asked a similar question once of a Bobover Chasid (Orthodox Jew). He told me that Allah is the same God as Hashem (the Jewish God), but not the same as the Christian deity (probably due to the trinitarian nature of the Christian deity.)

 

[BlaineTog]

Everybody keeps saying that, yet no one responds directly to my earlier post where I thought I gave a different analysis than what has been offered previously.

Such a direct response is difficult because I feel as if there is nothing I can say that the quotation doesn’t say. I really don’t see how you can take anything different from it unless you desperately want to take something different from it.

1. The Church regards with esteem also the Moslems.

The Church thinks Islam has something right.

They adore the one God, living and subsisting in Himself; merciful and all- powerful, the Creator of heaven and earth,(5) who has spoken to men; they take pains to submit wholeheartedly to even His inscrutable decrees, just as Abraham, with whom the faith of Islam takes pleasure in linking itself, submitted to God.

There really isn’t ambiguity here. Christianity worships “the one God…” Islam worships “the one God…” A = A. This degree of specificity necessitates a singular identity. Had this said, “They adore a monotheistic deity,” then I can see a certain level of ambiguity, but the use of the definite article “the,” the distinctive adjective “one,” and the unambiguous word “God” (capital “G,” used by the Catholic Church only as a name) means they are defining the God of Islam as the same in identity to the God of Christianity. They then go on to list many of the other ways in which our conceptions are identical.

professing and possessingare two different things…

Of course. I’m not saying that Islam possesses a correct conception of God. I’m saying that we both worship the same person even if one of us thinks that person is a little different.

Also, you’re setting me up for a strawman here. I didn’t say that “all religions, to a greater or lesser extent, worship the one true God.” I’m only speaking about Islam. Discussing other religions in general is another thread entirely.

Answer - "Again, this statement is very carefully worded: it does not say that Muslims adore the same God, but only that, like us “they adore the one merciful God, but only that, like us, 'they adore the one merciful God.”

Yes it does. That’s what “the” means. It pins down the noun it modifies as being a specific one. I offer as an example these two sentences: “I like the house. He likes the house.” These two people are necessarily talking about the same house. They couldn’t possibly be talking about different houses, because of the use of the definite article “the.”

The fact of the matter is that the grammar of this section of the Catechism is very clear. You just have to understand the distinction between definite and indefinite articles, and I think it’s only reasonable to assume that the compilers of the Catechism did.

 

[Nickkname]

The Church’s relationship with the Muslims. “The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day.”

• CCC, 841

Source: vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/_P29.HTM#2FM

The Church regards with esteem also the Moslems. They adore the one God, living and subsisting in Himself; merciful and all- powerful, the Creator of heaven and earth…

• NA, 3

Source: vatican.va/archive/hist_c…aetate_en.html

But the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator. In the first place amongst these there are the Mohamedans, who, professing to hold the faith of Abraham, along with us adore the one and merciful God, who on the last day will judge mankind.

• LG, 16

Source: vatican.va/archive/hist_c…entium_en.html

Like I said, I have all day.

(probably due to the trinitarian nature of the Christian deity.)

Yep, that’s correct. We all - Muslim, Christian, Jew - worship the same God, the one Lord, the Creator of heaven and earth. We do not worship different gods. We worship the same one God, and since there is only one living God, we can only be worshipping one God. And this one God is God. God is God. He is the God.

The Jews believe Christians worship a false god because we believe that God is triune, i.e., he is One but in him are three Persons: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

Non-Catholic Christians believe Muslims worship a false god because they do not believe God is triune. Ironically, this is what the Jews believe - now if both Jews and Muslims believe that God is not triune, how can one be worshipping God and the other not?

Muslims believe Jews and Christians worship the same God as them but the Sacred Scriptures is corrupted and Christians blasmphize when they say that God is triune.

Catholics believe that all Christians, Jews, and Muslims worship God. We don’t all hold the same practices or beliefs or books or prophets or covenants, but we do hold in common the belief in one God. This is called monotheism - the belief in a single god. And since God is the single god, there being no other god, than monotheism means the belief in God. Whatever names religions give to God, it is still the same God worshipped. For God is and alone is God.